Training - Monday 23 January, 2017

[Wiseblood 24,636]

Just now, Fork 'em said:

Worse trouble if Spencers not there.
Not every-one can be Max Gawn, Goldstein or Nik Nat.

I'm not asking them to be, and it's beside the point.  

My point is that, to me, it's dangerous to get excited about supposed 'improvement' from players who have been on our list for a long time.  I know what I'm getting with Spencer, and he can be a decent back up for Max.  I'm not asking him to be Max.  I'll reserve any excitement until I see him do it on gameday against proper opposition and not in January during drills with his team mates.  That's just my opinion though.

[grazman 6,434]

6 hours ago, dazzledavey36 said:

Harley Bennell missing a whole year with it last year.

Hmmmmm....yessssss Harley's troublesome calf. Because the AFL are completely honest about everything at all times.

Not a go at you DD - just a natural born sceptic.

Edited January 24, 2017 by grazman

[Fork 'em 6,507]

51 minutes ago, Wiseblood said:

  I'll reserve any excitement until I see him do it on gameday against proper opposition and not in January during drills with his team mates.  That's just my opinion though.

Goes for the whole team.
Not just Spencer.
As usual we seem to be training the house down.
 

[DeeSpencer 23,128]

1 hour ago, Wiseblood said:

Yes, he did.  In the beginning of the year he played quite well, which I happily agreed to at the time.  But he still made the same mistakes he always did - I can recall him making some absolute shockers throughout his time in the side.  Injury didn't help, but the club obviously felt he couldn't add more to the side, nor could they develop him further.  So he got delisted.

My point is that people got all excited about him because people talked him up at training and made big statements about his future.  That just shouldn't be done at this time of the year - 99% of the players on each list in the AFL will be 'training the house down'.  But there are some players that have been around long enough for us to make a fair assumption on, and M. Jones was one of those.

I think that's fair enough and I think Matt Jones is a good example. He turned training track improvement in to real improvement but still had the same flaws and was just a depth player. When we had the chance to bring Lewis in and already had Melksham, Bugg, Harmes etc as younger depth he made way.

It's not rubbishing Spencer or anyone reporting on him to say his improvement doesn't mean much yet. 

Probably the difference with Spencer is he's clearly the number 2 ruckman and plays very well in the VFL. Therefore he'll always be around the mark in selection decisions. 

Overall there's no point talking about his future beyond this season. 

[Vogon Poetry 2,095]

55 minutes ago, Wiseblood said:

My point is that, to me, it's dangerous to get excited about supposed 'improvement' from players who have been on our list for a long time.

I largely agree with you, I remember getting excited when I saw James Strauss train the house down one day!

I think what you can do is see if players are doing things in training that they haven't done in training before.  I'm a bit of a Pencil fan, reckon he gets a bum rap from some.  His kicking is now pretty good, I'd rather him having a shot for goal than Max.  Pencil's ball drop is very close to his foot which makes it look awkward but quite reliable.  He's also ok kicking around the ground where he has time but, like Max, hold on to your hat if he's under pressure.  I think what Pencil was doing on Monday was moving much better and making himself a target which he's not done much in the past.  But what caught the eye was the clean high marks he was taking but they were admittedly against much shorter opponents.  Nevertheless they were clean and contested.  He's always been quick for a big bloke and he's now much stronger than he was.  If Max goes down everyone thinks we go down with him.  I don't agree. Pencil will be competitive, he just won't be in the top category of rucks.

But the point that is often made is we are now seeing with all players the benefit of proper development.  Pencil has been at MFC under Bailey and Neeld before Roos arrived.  But frankly I think the major influence is McCartney, wherever he goes young players flourish.  And our list was just about a green field site when he arrived which means there was a lot of improvement in the older players as well.

The observation that all players are improving is most likely correct.

[PaulRB 5,921]

While Max is obvious No#1 ruck, the question of who can relieve him for 20% of game time in the ruck while also providing another aspect... at the moment this part time ruck role has been shuffled between Pedo and Watts. Watts in ruck is a loss for us, Pedo is not great in ruck, but offers a strong body up forward when Maxy's rucking. 

So can Spencer fill Pedos p/t ruck duties and provide a target up forward? 

Or is he just in there as a back up for the No#1 ruck role should Max go down? 

Edited January 24, 2017 by PaulRB

[rjay 23,907]

5 minutes ago, PaulRB said:

So can Spencer fill Pedos p/t ruck duties and provide a target up forward? 

No

6 minutes ago, PaulRB said:

Or is he just in there as a back up for the No#1 ruck role should Max go down?

Yes

[dazzledavey36 48,739]

1 hour ago, grazman said:

Hmmmmm....yessssss Harley's troublesome calf. Because the AFL are completely honest about everything at all times.

Not a go at you DD - just a natural born sceptic.

I understand all that and i have heard the rumors too. But he was just recently sent overseas to see a specialist regarding his troublesome calf. 

I trust our medical staff will be extra cautious with Gus because it really is a [censored] of an injury.

[McQueen 17,863]

1 hour ago, Wiseblood said:

Is he?  I'd like to see you prove it.

My point is that he is obviously doing good things at training, but, that is no indication of how that improvement translates to game day.  We've seen what Spencer has to offer - he's a back up to Gawn who is decent in the ruck, okay up forward in short bursts but doesn't offer much around the ground.  Players can only develop so far and have a ceiling that they'll never get past.  Spencer is on the list as he is a cheap back up while we have little else.  We're in big trouble if Gawn goes down.

I'll once again re-iterate that I'm all for players proving me wrong.  I don't wish them ill, nor do I wish that they don't make it.  I just comment and have an opinion on what I see.

 

Okay, I'll take this as you being on record that Spencer has "reached his ceiling" regardless of his improved training performances and greater fitness, given his uninterrupted pre season thus far.

[Wiseblood 24,636]

10 minutes ago, McQueen said:

Okay, I'll take this as you being on record that Spencer has "reached his ceiling" regardless of his improved training performances and greater fitness, given his uninterrupted pre season thus far.

Okay.  No idea what the point of that is, as I've already said I'm happy to be proven wrong, but if you want to be the 'I told you so' type then fill your boots, McQueen.

[Wiseblood 24,636]

44 minutes ago, DeeSpencer said:

I think that's fair enough and I think Matt Jones is a good example. He turned training track improvement in to real improvement but still had the same flaws and was just a depth player. When we had the chance to bring Lewis in and already had Melksham, Bugg, Harmes etc as younger depth he made way.

It's not rubbishing Spencer or anyone reporting on him to say his improvement doesn't mean much yet. 

Probably the difference with Spencer is he's clearly the number 2 ruckman and plays very well in the VFL. Therefore he'll always be around the mark in selection decisions. 

Overall there's no point talking about his future beyond this season. 

 

36 minutes ago, Vogon Poetry said:

I largely agree with you, I remember getting excited when I saw James Strauss train the house down one day!

I think what you can do is see if players are doing things in training that they haven't done in training before.  I'm a bit of a Pencil fan, reckon he gets a bum rap from some.  His kicking is now pretty good, I'd rather him having a shot for goal than Max.  Pencil's ball drop is very close to his foot which makes it look awkward but quite reliable.  He's also ok kicking around the ground where he has time but, like Max, hold on to your hat if he's under pressure.  I think what Pencil was doing on Monday was moving much better and making himself a target which he's not done much in the past.  But what caught the eye was the clean high marks he was taking but they were admittedly against much shorter opponents.  Nevertheless they were clean and contested.  He's always been quick for a big bloke and he's now much stronger than he was.  If Max goes down everyone thinks we go down with him.  I don't agree. Pencil will be competitive, he just won't be in the top category of rucks.

But the point that is often made is we are now seeing with all players the benefit of proper development.  Pencil has been at MFC under Bailey and Neeld before Roos arrived.  But frankly I think the major influence is McCartney, wherever he goes young players flourish.  And our list was just about a green field site when he arrived which means there was a lot of improvement in the older players as well.

The observation that all players are improving is most likely correct.

Both good posts and cheers for the well rounded discussion.

I don't have much more to add to my opening point, other than wanting to re-iterate that while I'm very skeptical about pre-season form and everything that goes with that (unrealistic expectations are one), I'll happily put my hands up and admit I'm wrong if he is able to win a regular spot in our best 22 or, god forbid, come in for an injury and play exceptionally well.  I hope every bloke that pulls on our jumper will do that, but the reality is never exactly that, and for me, Spencer won't be anything more than what he currently is.  Cheers.

[Melb16 458]

Pleased to hear that Pencil seems to be improving. Definitely believe it's worth giving him a run with Max. He's solid in the ruck and can absorb some of the punishment that Max would otherwise get. Max in turn will cause some headaches while he's resting down forward. 

[Fork 'em 6,507]

33 minutes ago, dazzledavey36 said:

I understand all that and i have heard the rumors too. But he was just recently sent overseas to see a specialist regarding his troublesome calf. 

 

I don't wanna go to rehab ... No , no , no.

[Satyriconhome 9,982]

1 hour ago, Fork 'em said:

Goes for the whole team.
Not just Spencer.
As usual we seem to be training the house down.
 

Training is training, I don't think anybody is under any illusions, the only difference from past years is that the development is working, the rehab staff have control over injury, Misso has the fitness and physicality of the players the best I have seen in years, so hopefully the promise of the training track will mean more come game day

Gee what a reaction when a couple of us were pleasantly surprised by Pencil's performance on Monday and reported the same, he is one example of what is going right, they have worked to get his body right, he has had a couple of excellent months on the track uninterrupted, and we saw the benefit

[McQueen 17,863]

32 minutes ago, Wiseblood said:

Okay.  No idea what the point of that is, as I've already said I'm happy to be proven wrong, but if you want to be the 'I told you so' type then fill your boots, McQueen.

I think you're overreacting but maybe it's due to a translating error on my behalf.

You seem to have placed a cap on Spencer whereas I haven't.

Do you think I'm a "told you so type?" I'd hope not. 

[Wiseblood 24,636]

Just now, McQueen said:

I think you're overreacting but maybe it's due to a translating error on my behalf.

You seem to have placed a cap on Spencer whereas I haven't.

Do you think I'm a "told you so type?" I'd hope not. 

No I don't think you are, which is why your post seemed strange to me.  I do believe that Spencil has pretty much reached the height of his abilities and improvement.  Nothing more than an opinion and, again, I'm happy for him to prove me wrong.  In fact, I'd love him to.  But I just don't see that happening.  

[McQueen 17,863]

10 minutes ago, Wiseblood said:

No I don't think you are, which is why your post seemed strange to me.  I do believe that Spencil has pretty much reached the height of his abilities and improvement.  Nothing more than an opinion and, again, I'm happy for him to prove me wrong.  In fact, I'd love him to.  But I just don't see that happening.  

If he stays fit I hope we get a good look at him in the JLT series.

 

[tiers 2,768]

Re: Jake Spencer and Jack Trengove

Neither have had a real pre season for years that would have prepared them adequately for match days. That they have shown improved ability following an unbroken pre season to date should be a positive for the club and all supporters.

Spencil is a big bodied ruckman who has speed, grunt and endurance and can be competitive at the highest level. How many clubs can boast 2 such ruckmen? How do we know if the FD is not developing a strategy around creating an imbalance on the ground and using Max and Pencil at the same time? How many opposition clubs would be stretched?

There is a simplistic notion that modern footy is all about speed and spread. But really it is as much about creating imbalances on the field. Imagine Spencil or Max resting in the forward line and taking away Jesse Hogan's gorilla opponent or alternating off the bench so that there is always a rested ruckman on the ground or dividing the ground in two (back line and centre, forward line) and sharing the load.. Players are here to play roles for the benefit of the team, not impress the critics with their speed and skills. I recall that both played in the great victory at Geelong in 2015.

Jack was a champion before his injury and deserves a fair go to prove his value again. This constant obsession with foot speed is becoming tedious. Spread does not rely on speed, it relies on having the footy smarts to be able to read the play and anticipate when to go and where before the opposition. So long as he gets to the right positions and gets there without an opponent, he can walk as far as I care. As for defensive speed, if finds himself on a faster player (which can happen to any player except Hunt) then it is up to the on field or off field leadership to make the necessary adjustment. That is what good coaching is meant to do. There are enough coaches to go around.

Give Jake and Jack a chance and don't dismiss their prospects too soon. I hope they surprise.

[Gator 16,892]

So much text on an ordinary player.  And I'll add to it...

Spencer can play some good footy, as evidenced by his good performance in Gawn's breakout game against Geelong in 2015.

As Vogon asserts, hell be good backup if Gawn goes down.  But that's it.  He's backup.

[Dante 2,562]

5 hours ago, Caligula's Cohort! said:

I've been to a few training sessions this year and I've been really pleased with the continual development of Vince, Jones and AVB. They've really grown into their roles and offer great voice and leadership. The group as a whole are more vocal and self assured then I've seen in recent years. They just keep ticking off all the boxes and have a real look of determination in them. I think we will see a much improved Vince, Jones and AVB this year.

Good to hear that, because he's now part of the furniture and we have so many new players around we hear little about Bern, I'm stoked that he's training well and that he and Nat and AVB have all moved up a notch. They are every bit as important as the new, young guns and will be integral to our season's results.

 

[dazzledavey36 48,739]

1 hour ago, Satyriconhome said:

Training is training, I don't think anybody is under any illusions, the only difference from past years is that the development is working, the rehab staff have control over injury, Misso has the fitness and physicality of the players the best I have seen in years, so hopefully the promise of the training track will mean more come game day

Gee what a reaction when a couple of us were pleasantly surprised by Pencil's performance on Monday and reported the same, he is one example of what is going right, they have worked to get his body right, he has had a couple of excellent months on the track uninterrupted, and we saw the benefit

What benefit? 2017 season hasn't even started yet. The benefit will hopefully come through his game day performance. If you have an injury free pre season then of course you can look a million dollars.

[Dante 2,562]

5 hours ago, McQueen said:

Posters who can't see particular players finally getting it together and becoming a good reliable player must also wonder why the club bothers with continual development programs.

Spencer is clearly moving forward by all reports.

That means he's not as useless as he was last year.

Kudos to the coaches. It's a real achievement that hopefully transitions into game day performances.

I've equivocated over Spence for several years now, first of all I thought he would be ok then I thought maybe not, then he played a couple of reasonable games and I jumped back on board again but after a while I figured that he just didn't have it. He's been on the list for what seems a thousand years and has played 30 odd games, this year must be make or break and I hope he turns it round like the Russian did. 

At least this year he has trained well and given himself a chance to get a game or two, not like previous years where he's been behind the 8 ball before the season starts.

 

[Satyriconhome 9,982]

2 minutes ago, dazzledavey36 said:

What benefit? 2017 season hasn't even started yet. The benefit will hopefully come through his game day performance. If you have an injury free pre season then of course you can look a million dollars.

The benefit to the player, not the team, he looked a completely different player, my point, he even surprised me with his level of involvement and skill level, so he showed 'the benefit' of what I wrote

Edited January 24, 2017 by Satyriconhome

[Satyriconhome 9,982]

19 minutes ago, Dante said:

Good to hear that, because he's now part of the furniture and we have so many new players around we hear little about Bern, I'm stoked that he's training well and that he and Nat and AVB have all moved up a notch. They are every bit as important as the new, young guns and will be integral to our season's results.

 

AVB has to move up a notch, he is like the rest, he has competition for a spot. I never mention Bernie, coz Bernie is Bernie, 12th pre season,  ticking all the boxes, he was good on Monday playing the half back role

[Salems Lot 2,369]

Something that I have not seen mentioned is the matter of how an improved playing list impacts on our observations. I agree with all who have offset expectation against the TTHD (Training The House Down) syndrome BUT it should be factored in that the difference between a player like James Strauss training well amongst a list of players such as Daniel Nicholson and James Magner is significantly different to a player such as Spencil doing the same in a list including Lewis, Gawn and Viney.

Good playing standards breeds greater improvement and it does not need to be said that if you drop the standard far enough it is far easier to TTHD.