VFL GRAND FINAL - CASEY SCORPIONS v FOOTSCRAY BULLDOGS

[rjay 25,093]

12 minutes ago, Wiseblood said:

Oh well.  We lost the Grand Final, we move on with the list decisions.  Can't believe people have the energy to dissect it in depth after the 23 rounds of the AFL season.  There were zero surprises in that game - the kids go alright, the ones who aren't up to standard showed exactly why that's the case.  End of story.

Not sky falling in from me.

We some youth and but a fair bit of experience during the year that held us in good stead.

Unfortunately some of them reverted to type in the GF, Grimes missed targets he needed to hit, Dunn lost the plot tried the barrel a couple of times to no effect, got caught out for agility and tried the ruff stuff again to no effect. Garland didn't impose. The inbetweeners like Michie, Turls etc didn't really impose. Spencer was probably the biggest disappointment and this is where the rot began. They had first use and their rucks were on top in the air and clearing a path on the ground.

I thought Matt Jones had a really good game and struggle to see why people want him delisted. He's not best 22 but he is good depth and stood up when a lot of others were falling down in the 3rd Q. Along with Oliver who is a star.

I noticed someone talking about Oliver fading in the last, but he did a power of work for the game. I think you will find the reason they wanted to qualify him for the finals is to get a head start on 2017 and building the tank. He spent a lot of time on ground and on ball in the 3 games. It was a great finals series from a 1st year player who came in underdone.

I wonder if Smith (Casey variety) has done enough to a least get a rookie spot at AFL level. Could be a bit of the Dixon's about him. He's had a good series and deserves his shot with us or someone else.

What the game did point out to me is that we do need an extra ruck and we need to keep drafting and trading to improve the list. Some of the players that took Casey to the top this year won't be around next year and we need to replace them with better players and more particularly players that put serious pressure on the senior team for spots.

Looking to the future, Oliver looked like an AFL level player and of course is, Weed has potential and I actually liked a lot of his ground work and quick hands, Matt Jones as I said is depth and deserves his place on the list. Apart from that Smith (MFC) has a lot of potential but a lot of work ahead with his disposal.

Most of our future this year was on display at AFL level so I'm not overly disappointed with the result, just a bit annoyed.

 

[old dee 23,872]

We lost this Grand Final for one reason IMO.

The dogs came to win it after the seniors won through to the GF the night before.

And the MFC seconds after finishing on top ( and beating this mop convincingly a couple of weeks ago) came with the usual MFC spirit.

When the going gets tough the tough get going that says it all about the MFC since 1964.

[DV8 2,271]

12 hours ago, Flamingdees said:

Was a real positive that the MFC supported Casey in its finals campaign this year unlike previous years. 

Gives the alignment a real positive feel moving forward. 

... and that we've now adopted the idea that winning in the VFL competition is good for us, all-round. 

The players of both clubs, the supporters, our respect gained as a club, the experience of winning, & the value for those who attend games to watch, to see genuine effort onfield.

...   good for footy.  its a WIN for footy & us.

[Satyriconhome 10,879]

9 minutes ago, rjay said:

Not sky falling in from me.

We some youth and but a fair bit of experience during the year that held us in good stead.

Unfortunately some of them reverted to type in the GF, Grimes missed targets he needed to hit, Dunn lost the plot tried the barrel a couple of times to no effect, got caught out for agility and tried the ruff stuff again to no effect. Garland didn't impose. The inbetweeners like Michie, Turls etc didn't really impose. Spencer was probably the biggest disappointment and this is where the rot began. They had first use and their rucks were on top in the air and clearing a path on the ground.

I thought Matt Jones had a really good game and struggle to see why people want him delisted. He's not best 22 but he is good depth and stood up when a lot of others were falling down in the 3rd Q. Along with Oliver who is a star.

I noticed someone talking about Oliver fading in the last, but he did a power of work for the game. I think you will find the reason they wanted to qualify him for the finals is to get a head start on 2017 and building the tank. He spent a lot of time on ground and on ball in the 3 games. It was a great finals series from a 1st year player who came in underdone.

I wonder if Smith (Casey variety) has done enough to a least get a rookie spot at AFL level. Could be a bit of the Dixon's about him. He's had a good series and deserves his shot with us or someone else.

What the game did point out to me is that we do need an extra ruck and we need to keep drafting and trading to improve the list. Some of the players that took Casey to the top this year won't be around next year and we need to replace them with better players and more particularly players that put serious pressure on the senior team for spots.

Looking to the future, Oliver looked like an AFL level player and of course is, Weed has potential and I actually liked a lot of his ground work and quick hands, Matt Jones as I said is depth and deserves his place on the list. Apart from that Smith (MFC) has a lot of potential but a lot of work ahead with his disposal.

Most of our future this year was on display at AFL level so I'm not overly disappointed with the result, just a bit annoyed.

 

Nice considered post.

I was at the game as well, disappointed Spencer seems to have gone backwards from the games he was playing earlier in the year

Notice the clamouring for us to get McInerney has stopped as well

The Dogs grabbed the momentum in the 3rd and Casey couldn't cope or wrestle it back, similar to the 30 point losses for MFC this season, 1 poor qtr, part of the maturing process for everybody

[stuie 7,374]

17 minutes ago, mo64 said:

How have Casey grown their culture? Casey only had 6 players in the GF team. That makes it hard for them to attract quality players and talk about club culture.

The only difference between this year and past is that Melbourne had a good run with injuries which improved Casey's home and away performances, and we allowed qualified players to play finals.

 

If you've been following them as far as game days, training reports, MFC reports and even social media you would have noticed a tangible difference in things like game plan, effort, team spirit and leadership this year as opposed to the last few years. Sure, there's no stat for "culture" but it's pretty noticeable if you've been keeping a close eye on them.

You're getting confused between culture and performance.

 

[xarronn 384]

1 hour ago, Akum said:

I agree with all this. But there was this great little piece that they showed at half time on Channel 7 about Tim Smith, who I thought almost singlehandedly kept Scorps in the game in 2nd Q. He works FT as a concreter/builder, and after a heavy day at work he's so stuffed that he just battles to get through training. This is in such stark contrast to the AFL listed players who are full-time professionals.

The other issue is players such as Jordan Russell, Jed Adcock & Will Minson (I guess that Dunn & Garland & Grimes are in the same situation for us). They are probably never going to get another AFL game, but in a stand-alone club, they play a valuable role for the club as a whole in helping to support & protect their young players who will be the stars of the future. In an aligned club, even with the alignment functioning much better, Dunn & Garland & Grimes could have a valuable development role to play for the next couple of years, but the Dees need the spots on the list that they occupy.

 

Stuie, has posted a very good response to this, but I would add that your post reads as though you may misunderstand the differences between an aligned and a reserves VFL team. There are not that many. Even fewer for Melbourne now that the alignment was re-negotiated and we now appoint and pay for the coach etc.

In both cases the AFL teams have exactly the same size AFL lists. In both cases, the VFL teams need to have VFL listed players to make up the numbers. I'm pretty sure, (virtually certain), that in both cases a certain number of the team must be VFL listed players.

Jordan Russell is a VFL listed player, same as our Casey captain - Jack Hutchins. There is a salary cap for VFL listed players, so the only way Tim Smith could become a full time footballer with Casey is if he was to be drafted by Melbourne and take up a spot on the list.

I'm sure Terlich was given a 2 year contract  in 2014 to bolster the Casey team, I reckon the 3 Yr deal for Garland was partly for the same reason.

There is another difference which has possibly been of benefit to us by being in an alignment. Aligned clubs field Development League teams. This has meant that we were able to have Hunt play quite a few games at that level. Joel Smith had that opportunity before stepping up. Going the other way, we were able to drop Max King to that level, when he clearly is not deserving of a spot in the Casey team.

Posters point to the success, (recently) of the WB's with a reserves team, but frequently overlooked is Collingwood and Richmond. Of course Hawthorns alignment has not  held them back.

There is no doubt that our failure to develop players is a Melb FC problem, not an alignment problem.

[Akum 2,660]

1 hour ago, stuie said:

I'm not sure how Tim Smith's situation would be any different with a stand alone team though? He'd likely be getting paid the same etc and would still need a career after footy, so he'd still be in the same job I'd imagine.

Similar with Dunn, Garland etc, I'm not sure the situation would be much different. The stand alone team would still be full of our AFL players, so the same thing would happen anyway as far as list changes go. I hardly think those guys would sign up as just VFL players so they can stick around at Casey.

This is the first year that Casey and MFC have had a real synergy with actually linking the game plan/style etc and we finished top of the ladder and made the grand final. I'm not too disappointed with 2016 despite the GF loss. Think some are overreacting to it a bit to be honest.

To me, the best argument against it is the cost v reward. Currently it's working really well. Casey has grown their culture along with the Dees and with Plapp linking everything better with MFC it's all working in tandem just as well as it would if it was a stand alone team. I do agree that a name change to the Demons would be great though.

 

Yeah I agree with this too, especially the bolded bit.

On the other hand, look at it this way. There was a telling shot in the 3rd Q of Plappy sitting in the coaches box all by himself, while Ash Hansen had 2 or 3 others. Their change in strategy is what opened us up in the 3rd Q, when they stopped bombing it in so much and started doing what we did to them in the qualifying final - moved the ball around the 50m arc until they found an opening. The one person who could have helped Plapp at that stage was Craig Jennings (MFC match-day strategist), but as an employee of MFC, he wouldn't have been working. While whoever replaced him at the Dogs would have been working his guts out and probably won Footscray a premiership.

Scorps were ahead at half time and outscored them in the last Q, even though they looked better than us the whole of that time, so the Scorps actually did a lot right. It was probably only that change in strategy in one quarter that won Footscray the premiership.

Agree that it's foolish to make the change now, when this is the first year it's worked really well. And as I said, there are sound reasons for maintaining the Casey connection. So maybe it just needs a bit of tweaking, especially at the business end of the season. Let's face it, this is also the first year for ages that the Scorps have actually won a final, let alone played off for the big prize.

[old dee 23,872]

8 minutes ago, xarronn said:

Stuie, has posted a very good response to this, but I would add that your post reads as though you may misunderstand the differences between an aligned and a reserves VFL team. There are not that many. Even fewer for Melbourne now that the alignment was re-negotiated and we now appoint and pay for the coach etc.

In both cases the AFL teams have exactly the same size AFL lists. In both cases, the VFL teams need to have VFL listed players to make up the numbers. I'm pretty sure, (virtually certain), that in both cases a certain number of the team must be VFL listed players.

Jordan Russell is a VFL listed player, same as our Casey captain - Jack Hutchins. There is a salary cap for VFL listed players, so the only way Tim Smith could become a full time footballer with Casey is if he was to be drafted by Melbourne and take up a spot on the list.

I'm sure Terlich was given a 2 year contract  in 2014 to bolster the Casey team, I reckon the 3 Yr deal for Garland was partly for the same reason.

There is another difference which has possibly been of benefit to us by being in an alignment. Aligned clubs field Development League teams. This has meant that we were able to have Hunt play quite a few games at that level. Joel Smith had that opportunity before stepping up. Going the other way, we were able to drop Max King to that level, when he clearly is not deserving of a spot in the Casey team.

Posters point to the success, (recently) of the WB's with a reserves team, but frequently overlooked is Collingwood and Richmond. Of course Hawthorns alignment has not  held them back.

There is no doubt that our failure to develop players is a Melb FC problem, not an alignment problem.

True and correct xarronn!

[Akum 2,660]

10 minutes ago, xarronn said:

Stuie, has posted a very good response to this, but I would add that your post reads as though you may misunderstand the differences between an aligned and a reserves VFL team. There are not that many. Even fewer for Melbourne now that the alignment was re-negotiated and we now appoint and pay for the coach etc.

In both cases the AFL teams have exactly the same size AFL lists. In both cases, the VFL teams need to have VFL listed players to make up the numbers. I'm pretty sure, (virtually certain), that in both cases a certain number of the team must be VFL listed players.

Jordan Russell is a VFL listed player, same as our Casey captain - Jack Hutchins. There is a salary cap for VFL listed players, so the only way Tim Smith could become a full time footballer with Casey is if he was to be drafted by Melbourne and take up a spot on the list.

I'm sure Terlich was given a 2 year contract  in 2014 to bolster the Casey team, I reckon the 3 Yr deal for Garland was partly for the same reason.

There is another difference which has possibly been of benefit to us by being in an alignment. Aligned clubs field Development League teams. This has meant that we were able to have Hunt play quite a few games at that level. Joel Smith had that opportunity before stepping up. Going the other way, we were able to drop Max King to that level, when he clearly is not deserving of a spot in the Casey team.

Posters point to the success, (recently) of the WB's with a reserves team, but frequently overlooked is Collingwood and Richmond. Of course Hawthorns alignment has not  held them back.

There is no doubt that our failure to develop players is a Melb FC problem, not an alignment problem.

Yeah you're probably right. I'm coming round to thinking that maybe MFC need to lend them some crucial resources, especially match-day resources, if Casey go deep into finals again. I'm just really struck by the amount of resources (especially planning & preparation & strategy - all match-day resources) that the Dogs, having won this premiership in 2014 and knowing of the impact that premiership had on their whole club, put into this match.

Remember that they had smashed the third-best club in the comp by 20 goals, while we only lost by 5, so we're not far off it. Remember too that we smashed them by nearly 12 goals just two weeks ago. I really get the feeling that after that loss, the leadership of the whole "Western Bulldogs" entity got together and decided to do something about it.

I remember it being mentioned somewhere that it was only when the AFL season ended that the MFC players and the Casey players had the chance to train together. Of course, the Dogs players would have trained together all season.

So maybe, given that making the alignment closer has had a great result this year, I'm really arguing for making the alignment even closer next year, just in 2 or 3 critical areas.

[chook fowler 19,554]

I'm sorry but Matt Jones undoes all his good work with horrendous turnovers and poor decision making. His disposals have little impact and time does not seem to have changed anything. Time for him to move on.

[Dee1987 277]

2 minutes ago, chook fowler said:

I'm sorry but Matt Jones undoes all his good work with horrendous turnovers and poor decision making. His disposals have little impact and time does not seem to have changed anything. Time for him to move on.

Not to mention he can't hold a tackle 

[DemonDave 1,092]

2 hours ago, Akum said:

Yeah you're probably right. I'm coming round to thinking that maybe MFC need to lend them some crucial resources, especially match-day resources, if Casey go deep into finals again. I'm just really struck by the amount of resources (especially planning & preparation & strategy - all match-day resources) that the Dogs, having won this premiership in 2014 and knowing of the impact that premiership had on their whole club, put into this match.

Remember that they had smashed the third-best club in the comp by 20 goals, while we only lost by 5, so we're not far off it. Remember too that we smashed them by nearly 12 goals just two weeks ago. I really get the feeling that after that loss, the leadership of the whole "Western Bulldogs" entity got together and decided to do something about it.

I remember it being mentioned somewhere that it was only when the AFL season ended that the MFC players and the Casey players had the chance to train together. Of course, the Dogs players would have trained together all season.

So maybe, given that making the alignment closer has had a great result this year, I'm really arguing for making the alignment even closer next year, just in 2 or 3 critical areas.

I don't know about lack of resources on match day. At every home and away Casey game this year that I went to, Brendan McCartney has a big influence on matchday proceedings, from chatting to players, assistant coaches, and most importantly, always having a word in Plapps ear before each huddle commences. He can also be seen frequently on the phone to him from the dugout when he's on the boundary. Add in the constant presence of Dan McPherson, Brett Allison and Darren Ogier,  as well as the likes of Chris Dawes always giving advice to his fellow forwards when not playing,  and I think he's surrounded by a good knowledgeable team. 

The Bulldogs only had a handful of senior players on the field for that first weeks final, there were no Jong, no Koby Stevens and no Tom Campbell, they were all kept out of the side to be considered for the AFL Dogs senior side, and all 3 were critical yesterday to the outcome.

[daisycutter 29,743]

2 minutes ago, chook fowler said:

I'm sorry but Matt Jones undoes all his good work with horrendous turnovers and poor decision making. His disposals have little impact and time does not seem to have changed anything. Time for him to move on.

i think he stays for two reasons

1. he's better than the other similar depth players

2. we can't delist about 10 picks unless we are prepared to pick a whole bunch of players in the 80+ pick range 

[chook fowler 19,554]

15 minutes ago, daisycutter said:

i think he stays for two reasons

1. he's better than the other similar depth players

2. we can't delist about 10 picks unless we are prepared to pick a whole bunch of players in the 80+ pick range 

Makes sense unfortunately 

[Little Richard 6,265]

4 hours ago, Fifty-5 said:

MFC and now Casey have a real problem playing at Etihad.  We have to address this if we are going to challenge.  That game reminded me of the 2 against St.Kilda this year.

That third quarter was almost identical to the first match against the Saints. So frustrating.

It amazes me that a team can go from having the edge for the first two quarters, to standing around like witches hats in the third. We've been good at doing it, and yesterday Casey were too.

Edited September 26, 2016 by Luther

[daisycutter 29,743]

6 minutes ago, Luther said:

That third quarter was almost identical to the first match against the Saints. So frustrating.

It amazes me that a team can go from having the edge for the first two quarters, to standing around like witches hats in the third. We've been good at doing it, and yesterday Casey were too.

goody will fixit it. he will have a plan b and will be a better game-day coach

 

i hope

[MadAsHell 4,215]

3 hours ago, mo64 said:

How have Casey grown their culture? Casey only had 6 players in the GF team. That makes it hard for them to attract quality players and talk about club culture.

The only difference between this year and past is that Melbourne had a good run with injuries which improved Casey's home and away performances, and we allowed qualified players to play finals.

 

Go and watch Plapp's interviews pre & post Grand Final.

The Casey players have brought into the one club message which is now being pushed.  Their part time footballers dedicating themselves to try and lead as close a lifestyle to a full time footballer as possible.  Attending extra training sessions when possible including summer sessions in the city with the Melbourne players to try and gel.  There's a good interview with Trengove & Munroe on Scorp TV from mid-season where they talk about the efforts being made for the groups to bond and grow more.  Casey's D-League team made the grand final also, which shows the ground being gained by the club.

Gone are the days of 2 years ago where Ro Welsh gave JKH some instructions that totally contradicted what Miller had just asked him to do and the poor kid had no idea who he was suppose to follow.

If Melbourne were to go stand alone, it would have been after the 2014 season.  Instead they decided to work on the alignment with great results,  We've gone from 2nd last in 2014 ahead of only Bendigo (now dismantled) to a finslist in 2015 and Grand Finalist/minor premier in 2016.  Yet because of one terrible quarter, which even AFL prelim finalist teams aren't exempt from, people want to talk down the alignment.

Amazing what goes on.  However one thing I will say, is that I'm not against a renaming of the team to show the true alignment, however it is important from a VFL perspective to keep the Scorpions name.  In the Victorian District Cricket league the Casey-South Melbourne cricket club play out of Casey Fields, so I think the Melbourne-Casey Scorpions is something that they could rename the club.  Give them the Melbourne guernsey with a Scorpion a the bottom of the red point on the jumper.  Just a thought.

[rjay 25,093]

6 minutes ago, Luther said:

That third quarter was almost identical to the first match against the Saints. So frustrating.

It amazes me that a team can go from having the edge for the first two quarters, to standing around like witches hats in the third. We've been good at doing it, and yesterday Casey were too.

The scoreboard flattered us in the first half 'Luther'...

[chook fowler 19,554]

36 minutes ago, deefella said:

Not to mention he can't hold a tackle 

Yep, running is about it

[mo64 5,881]

3 minutes ago, AngryAtCasey said:

Go and watch Plapp's interviews pre & post Grand Final.

The Casey players have brought into the one club message which is now being pushed.  Their part time footballers dedicating themselves to try and lead as close a lifestyle to a full time footballer as possible.  Attending extra training sessions when possible including summer sessions in the city with the Melbourne players to try and gel.  There's a good interview with Trengove & Munroe on Scorp TV from mid-season where they talk about the efforts being made for the groups to bond and grow more.  Casey's D-League team made the grand final also, which shows the ground being gained by the club.

Gone are the days of 2 years ago where Ro Welsh gave JKH some instructions that totally contradicted what Miller had just asked him to do and the poor kid had no idea who he was suppose to follow.

If Melbourne were to go stand alone, it would have been after the 2014 season.  Instead they decided to work on the alignment with great results,  We've gone from 2nd last in 2014 ahead of only Bendigo (now dismantled) to a finslist in 2015 and Grand Finalist/minor premier in 2016.  Yet because of one terrible quarter, which even AFL prelim finalist teams aren't exempt from, people want to talk down the alignment.

Amazing what goes on.  However one thing I will say, is that I'm not against a renaming of the team to show the true alignment, however it is important from a VFL perspective to keep the Scorpions name.  In the Victorian District Cricket league the Casey-South Melbourne cricket club play out of Casey Fields, so I think the Melbourne-Casey Scorpions is something that they could rename the club.  Give them the Melbourne guernsey with a Scorpion a the bottom of the red point on the jumper.  Just a thought.

I'm not questioning the commitment of the Casey players. I was having a dig at Melbourne's commitment to Casey, when in previous years of making the finals, we'd put our players out to pasture. How could they develop a winning culture when Big Brother treated them like sh#t. Prior to this year, Casey had lost something like 9 finals games in a row.

[old dee 23,872]

54 minutes ago, daisycutter said:

i think he stays for two reasons

1. he's better than the other similar depth players

2. we can't delist about 10 picks unless we are prepared to pick a whole bunch of players in the 80+ pick range 

Sadly DC I think Dawes may get a spot for the same reason.

I cannot believe I am saying this but having watched the Weed and Hulett the last five weeks I think we need to keep Dawes.

Neither player will be AFL levelin 2017 in fact I doubt Hulett will ever be.

[stuie 7,374]

30 minutes ago, mo64 said:

I'm not questioning the commitment of the Casey players. I was having a dig at Melbourne's commitment to Casey, when in previous years of making the finals, we'd put our players out to pasture. How could they develop a winning culture when Big Brother treated them like sh#t. Prior to this year, Casey had lost something like 9 finals games in a row.

Which is exactly why the culture has grown when you look at this year.

You just made our point for us.

 

[daisycutter 29,743]

31 minutes ago, old dee said:

Sadly DC I think Dawes may get a spot for the same reason.

I cannot believe I am saying this but having watched the Weed and Hulett the last five weeks I think we need to keep Dawes.

Neither player will be AFL levelin 2017 in fact I doubt Hulett will ever be.

agree neither will be ready 2017, unless something amazing happens

[DeeZone 10,145]

Thanks KC and all other posters , I thought that we were really struggling to stay with them at half time and although really disappointed at our third quarter effort, I wasn't surprised when the flood gates opened, we should have gone down by 60 points. However, two years ago we were on the bottom of the ladder, it's rare to win a Granny in your first appearance so need to stay up there and get a second or third crack at it. Sadly our failure to produce is also a reflection of our depth and lack of pace and ability to hit up a team mate and how to control the ball when the other side is running white hot. Mid season I was thinking that it may be hard to free up 4-6 spots on the list But now think we need to free up 6-8 spots and bring in more kids with pace and kicking skills  and they don't have to be all that tall either. Mid fielders with pace, pace and more pace. Go Dee's, Go Scorp's !!!

[Cards13 9,117]

9 hours ago, Fifty-5 said:

MFC and now Casey have a real problem playing at Etihad.  We have to address this if we are going to challenge.  That game reminded me of the 2 against St.Kilda this year.

How many times have Casey played at Docklands stadium?