FA & Trade Whispers

[old55 21,360]

Just now, A F said:

I like sticking the boot into Hawthorn as much as the next person, but Smith was arrogant and smug for lining up to kick a goal on the siren?

The video is not exactly flattering

[Binmans PA 26,246]

1 hour ago, SaberFang said:

Why the hell did Carlton do that deal? Did they trade those scraps to GWS for Pickett or something? Otherwise they gave up their 2017 second rounder for absolute rubbish?!

And now Port have given up pick 9 to Sydney for pick 14 and 17?

Could it have been to package with Gibbs for an Adelaide player?

[Elwood 3184 1,268]

NAB Trade Radio - the final deals:-

• Tyrone Vickery moves from Richmond to Hawthorn as a restricted free agent
• Daniel Wells moves from North Melbourne to Collingwood as an unrestricted free agent
• Cam McCarthy, pick 7, 34 and 72 move from GWS to Fremantle in exchange for pick 3.
• Brad Hill traded from Hawthorn to Fremantle in exchange for pick 23
• Pick 3 and 16 traded from GWS to Brisbane in exchange for picks 2, 31, 51 and 60.
• Jack Steele moves from GWS to St Kilda in exchange for their 2017 future round two pick
• Sam Mitchell, pick 54 and 72 traded from Hawthorn to West Coast in exchange for pick 52, 70 and 88.
• Tom Mitchell and pick 57 traded from Sydney to Hawthorn in exchange for pick 14 and 52.
• Pick 10 and 68 traded from St Kilda to Hawthorn in exchange for Hawthorn's 2017 future first pick, and this year's pick 23 and 36.
• Paul Ahern traded from GWS to North Melbourne in exchange for pick 69
• Three Way Trade: Gold Coast receive Pearce Hanley and Port Adelaide's pick 67. Port Adelaide receive Brisbane's pick 19 and Gold Coast's pick 30. Brisbane receive Gold Coast's pick 22 and Port Adelaide's future first round pick.
• Jordan Lewis, pick 57 and pick 58 traded from Hawthorn to Melbourne in exchange for pick 48 and 66.
• Joel Hamling, pick 40 and 63 traded from the Western Bulldogs to Fremantle in exchange for pick 35, 43 and 61.
• Michael Hibberd and pick 59 traded to Melbourne in exchange for picks 29 and 68.
• Dion Prestia and pick 24 traded to Richmond in exchange for picks 6 and the club's 2017 future second round pick.
• Toby Nankervis traded from Sydney to Richmond in exchange for pick 46.
Western Bulldogs trade pick 35 and 43 to the Gold Coast in exchange for picks 26 and 80
• Jarrod Witts traded from Collingwood to Gold Coast in exchange for picks 44 and 62
• Nathan Hrovat traded from Western Bulldogs to North Melbourne, with both clubs swapping their 2017 future third and fourth round draft picks.
• Shane Kersten traded from Geelong to Fremantle in exchange for pick 63.
• Zach Tuohy and Carlton's 2017 future second round pick traded from Carlton to Geelong in exchange for Billie Smedts, pick 63 and Geelong's 2017 future first round pick.
• Josh Caddy and pick 56 traded from Geelong to Richmond in exchange for picks 24 and 64
• Sydney trade picks 39 and 52 to GWS in exchange for pick 31
• Jarryd Lyons and pick 71 traded from Adelaide to Gold Coast in exchange for picks 43 and 67.
• Pat McKenna, pick 51 and pick 69 traded from GWS to Melbourne in exchange for picks 57 and 59
• Nathan Vardy traded from Geelong to West Coast in exchange for pick 72
• Travis Cloke traded from Collingwood to Western Bulldogs in exchange for pick 76
• James Stewart traded from GWS to Essendon in exchange for pick 77
• Aaron Black traded from North Melbourne to Geelong for pick 92
• Will Hoskin-Elliott traded from GWS to Collingwood in exchange for GWS' future second-round pick
• Jack Frost, pick 76 and Collingwood's 2017 future third-round selection traded from Collingwood to Brisbane in exchange for Brisbane's 2017 third and fourth round picks.
• Marley Williams traded from Collingwood to North Melbourne in exchange for pick 105
• Lynden Dunn and pick 51 traded from Melbourne to Collingwood in exchange for pick 47
• Koby Stevens, pick 61 and the Western Bulldogs' 2017 fourth pick traded from the Bulldogs to St Kilda in exchange for pick 50 and their 2017 round 5 pick.
• Brett Deledio traded from Richmond to GWS in exchange for GWS' 2017 first and third round picks
• Caleb Marchbank, Jarrod Pickett and GWS' future 2017 second round pick traded from GWS to Carlton in exchange for picks 45, 58 and Carlton's future 2017 first round pick
• Rhys Palmer traded from GWS to Carlton in exchange for pick 135
• Jaeger O'Meara traded from Gold Coast to Hawthorn in exchange for pick 10 and a future second-round pick
• Pick 14, 17 and 31 traded from Sydney to Port Adelaide in exchange for picks 9 and 19 and 49
• Pick 48, 66 and 70 traded from Hawthorn to Carlton in exchange for Carlton's 2017 second round pick.

[Binmans PA 26,246]

1 hour ago, Abe said:

Says a bit about SOS in my opinion, 5 top 25 selections and every single one of them is a bust, only one playing semi-regular AFL footy is Marchbank

No two ways about it. He's been a disastrous recruiter. Hilarious that he's now ruining Carlton, who don't have anything like the same access to elite talent that GWS did. They can't afford to muck up most picks.

1 hour ago, TRIGON said:

The impact of the AFL's concessions to GWS that allow them to repeatedly access the best talent can't be understated. Taken in isolation, their 2014 drafting & trading would have sunk most clubs. Look at the difference in the 2014 period, comparing us to them:

GWS Brought in: Pickett, Marchbank, Ahern, McKenna, Steele, Finlayson, Griffin, Joel Patfull

MEL: Brought in: Petracca, Brayshaw, ANB, Stretch, O Mac, Vanderberg, White.M, Lumumba, Sam Frost, Garlett

And at the same time...

GWS Lost: Tom Boyd, Jonathan Giles, Sam Frost, Kristian Jaksch, Mark Whiley, Jono O'Rourke

MEL Lost: Mitch Clark, James Frawley, Sam Blease, Daniel Nicholson, Mitch Clisby, Shannon Byrnes

That's why Jason Taylor is such an important figure at a club like ours. We have to nail most, if not all, of our picks. GWS can blow a couple and have.

Edited October 20, 2016 by A F

[Robbie57 1,991]

Can someone explain why on earth Carlton did that deal with the Hawks? It makes no sense to me.

[jnrmac 19,077]

2 hours ago, Nascent said:

GWS 2014 draft

pick 4: Jarrod Pickett

pick 6: Caleb Marchbank

pick 7: Paul Ahern

pick 23: Patrick McKenna

pick 24: Jack Steele

Entire first and second round draft picks wiped out after two years. This club is hemorrhaging talent yet still has one of the best lists going around. 

 

We get pilloried for our drafting but GWS are able to have their ineptitude ignored because of the sheer volume of top-end draft picks they have had.

Silvagni is a dud list manager

[Ted Lasso 16,865]

1 minute ago, Robbie57 said:

Can someone explain why on earth Carlton did that deal with the Hawks? It makes no sense to me.

I don't know why Carlton do 99% of what they do lol SOS is doing a very average job so far there though so they will feel the pain soon enough. 

out of curiosity what do you reckon Gibbs is worth in a trade? i reckon they were asking way to much

[Robbie57 1,991]

6 minutes ago, Abe said:

I don't know why Carlton do 99% of what they do lol SOS is doing a very average job so far there though so they will feel the pain soon enough.

out of curiosity what do you reckon Gibbs is worth in a trade? i reckon they were asking way to much

I am truly baffled.

Gibbs worth a first and late 2nd or 3rd but no more. But what would I know, O'Meara worth burning down the house over at the Hawks.

Edited October 20, 2016 by Robbie57

[DubDee 20,825]

Gibbs rocking up for day 1 of preseason would be good to watch!

[beelzebub 22,225]

9 minutes ago, jnrmac said:

We get pilloried for our drafting but GWS are able to have their ineptitude ignored because of the sheer volume of top-end draft picks they have had.

Silvagni is a dud list manager

I agree, save for an abundance of excesses he would struggle to party at CUB

[binman 38,526]

1 hour ago, Fifty-5 said:

The video is not exactly flattering

But like so many things in life not what it appears. Apparently his smile was in response to the umpire advising him the siren had gone and that if he played on he couldn't shoot for goal. No smugness there, more likely having a wry smile at the how bad an outcome playing on would be.

[jnrmac 19,077]

31 minutes ago, DubDee said:

Gibbs rocking up for day 1 of preseason would be good to watch!

Gibbs is not the problem per se. Its his missus that wants to go home.....

[Lucifers Hero 37,173]

What happened to the draft pick rules!

• Hawks trade out 2017 1st and 2nd round picks - rules say if you trade out future round 1, a club cannot trade out the 2nd round.
• GWS have 2016 draft picks: 2, 15, 37, 39, 45, 52, 55, 57, 58, 59, 60, 77, 109  but the rules say you cannot have more picks than list spots (with some exceptions on future picks from prior year).  That is 11 picks that carry draft points!!
• And a number of clubs traded future 3rd, 4th and 5th round picks - are they allowed?  I thought it was only round 1 and 2?
• A week into the trade period the AFL gave Geelong a correct interpretation of the 'two 1st round picks in 4 years' rule that allowed them to trade out their 2017 1st pick. The AFL hadn't thought it through before the draft started so had given the wrong advice on which clubs could trade their 2017 1st pick

My point is the rules should be set before the trade period and not rejigged on the run.  I know this is the AFL but changing the rules on the run is unfair to the clubs that don't know the rules have been 'reinterpreted'.  The AFL certainly did not issue any bulletins (that I could find) clarifying any of the above. 

Edit: refer to Fifty-5's post #3896 below for clarification of these points. 

Edited October 20, 2016 by Lucifer's Hero

[rjay 23,927]

 

What happened to the draft pick rules!

• Hawks trade out 2017 1st and 2nd round picks - rules say if you trade out future round 1, a club cannot trade out the 2nd round.
• GWS have 2016 draft picks: 2, 15, 37, 39, 45, 52, 55, 57, 58, 59, 60, 77, 109  but the rules say you cannot have more picks than list spots (with some exceptions on future picks from prior year).  That is 11 picks that carry draft points!!
• And a number of clubs traded future 3rd, 4th and 5th round picks - are they allowed?  I thought it was only round 1 and 2?
• A week into the trade period the AFL gave Geelong a correct interpretation of the 'two 1st round picks in 4 years' rule that allowed them to trade out their 2017 1st pick. The AFL hadn't thought it through before the draft started so had given the wrong advice on which clubs could trade their 2017 1st pick

My point is the rules should be set before the trade period and not rejigged on the run.  I know this is the AFL but changing the rules on the run is unfair to the clubs that don't know the rules have been 'reinterpreted'.  The AFL certainly did not issue any bulletins (that I could find) clarifying any of the above. 

Like the rules of the game 'Lucifer', it seems anything to do with the AFL is open to interpretation.

The rule of the week is alive and well...

[Lucifers Hero 37,173]

 

Like the rules of the game 'Lucifer', it seems anything to do with the AFL is open to interpretation.

The rule of the week is alive and well...

Agreed.  Would be surprised if some clubs don't raise it with the AFL.  A bit late tho'.

On drafting of future picks:  Its interesting that Hawks and Cats have taken out a big mortgage on their future. 

• Hawks first pick this year is #88 and next year #50 approx leaving a big gap in their young player stocks for several years.  If they want to get back into the 2017 early rounds or an age group they must trade out players (or 2018 picks which just puts out the day of reckoning, like the Cats now)
• Cats have to find an extra 1st round draft pick in 2017/2018.  The only way they can do this is to trade out players. 

For both clubs they will need to trade out quite good players as other clubs will know Hawks/Cats must get the required picks and can't expect 1st round picks for throwaways.

They are both playing at the 'don't worry about drafting and developing' we will just get players as FA's, when OOC or when the 'go home' thing kicks in.  GCS and Carlton showed that won't be so easy in future.

[jnrmac 19,077]

 

Agreed.  Would be surprised if some clubs don't raise it with the AFL.  A bit late tho'.

On drafting of future picks:  Its interesting that Hawks and Cats have taken out a big mortgage on their future. 

• Hawks first pick this year is #88 and next year #50 approx leaving a big gap in their young player stocks for several years.  If they want to get back into the 2017 early rounds or an age group they must trade out players (or 2018 picks which just puts out the day of reckoning, like the Cats now)
• Cats have to find an extra 1st round draft pick in 2017/2018.  The only way they can do this is to trade out players. 

For both clubs they will need to trade out quite good players as other clubs will know Hawks/Cats must get the required picks and can't expect 1st round picks for throwaways.

They are both playing at the 'don't worry about drafting and developing' we will just get players as FA's, when OOC or when the 'go home' thing kicks in.  GCS and Carlton showed that won't be so easy in future.

What's the penaly if Hawkls and Geelong are not able trade in a first round pick over a 2 year period? Or 2 picks in 4 yrs or whatever it was supposed to be.

Seems to me those clubs are banking on being able to trade in a pick?

[Bluey's Dad 3,419]

 

What's the penaly if Hawkls and Geelong are not able trade in a first round pick over a 2 year period? Or 2 picks in 4 yrs or whatever it was supposed to be.

Seems to me those clubs are banking on being able to trade in a pick?

Yeah this makes no sense to me either.

Trades are a unreliable, and to meet the requirements they MUST trade to get the picks in to satisfy the rules.

I assume if they are unable to, the AFL will just rejig the rules again.

[Lucifers Hero 37,173]

 

What's the penaly if Hawkls and Geelong are not able trade in a first round pick over a 2 year period? Or 2 picks in 4 yrs or whatever it was supposed to be.

Seems to me those clubs are banking on being able to trade in a pick?

Penalty:  face restrictions from trading any further first-round draft picks.  Not sure how much of a deterrent that is if the ban is only a year or two. 

Yes they are banking on trading in a pick, which really can only be for players.    

[SFebes 4,692]

It seems many clubs were bamboozled by the Cats scenario, clubs may have taken a different approach if the rules were clear.

[Bluey's Dad 3,419]

 

What happened to the draft pick rules!

• Hawks trade out 2017 1st and 2nd round picks - rules say if you trade out future round 1, a club cannot trade out the 2nd round.
• GWS have 2016 draft picks: 2, 15, 37, 39, 45, 52, 55, 57, 58, 59, 60, 77, 109  but the rules say you cannot have more picks than list spots (with some exceptions on future picks from prior year).  That is 11 picks that carry draft points!!
• And a number of clubs traded future 3rd, 4th and 5th round picks - are they allowed?  I thought it was only round 1 and 2?
• A week into the trade period the AFL gave Geelong a correct interpretation of the 'two 1st round picks in 4 years' rule that allowed them to trade out their 2017 1st pick. The AFL hadn't thought it through before the draft started so had given the wrong advice on which clubs could trade their 2017 1st pick

My point is the rules should be set before the trade period and not rejigged on the run.  I know this is the AFL but changing the rules on the run is unfair to the clubs that don't know the rules have been 'reinterpreted'.  The AFL certainly did not issue any bulletins (that I could find) clarifying any of the above. 

Can you take this post to AFL House?

Or even maybe to someone in the media. These are all excellent points, especially the one about multiple picks and open list spots. That change could not have been clearer from the AFL, and now GWS have all those points.

I guess it's possible that when it comes time for them to actually use the points on draft day, the AFL will say no? Maybe?

I dunno, following this sport is too much work sometimes. The mental acrobatics to make sense of it all is just exhausting.

[old55 21,360]

 

What happened to the draft pick rules!

• Hawks trade out 2017 1st and 2nd round picks - rules say if you trade out future round 1, a club cannot trade out the 2nd round.
• GWS have 2016 draft picks: 2, 15, 37, 39, 45, 52, 55, 57, 58, 59, 60, 77, 109  but the rules say you cannot have more picks than list spots (with some exceptions on future picks from prior year).  That is 11 picks that carry draft points!!
• And a number of clubs traded future 3rd, 4th and 5th round picks - are they allowed?  I thought it was only round 1 and 2?
• A week into the trade period the AFL gave Geelong a correct interpretation of the 'two 1st round picks in 4 years' rule that allowed them to trade out their 2017 1st pick. The AFL hadn't thought it through before the draft started so had given the wrong advice on which clubs could trade their 2017 1st pick

My point is the rules should be set before the trade period and not rejigged on the run.  I know this is the AFL but changing the rules on the run is unfair to the clubs that don't know the rules have been 'reinterpreted'.  The AFL certainly did not issue any bulletins (that I could find) clarifying any of the above. 

It's complex Luke but I don't think all of your analysis is correct:

• Hawthorn did trade out 2017 1st and 2nd but I believe they hold Carlton's 2017 2nd so are able to count that just like we could count 2 1st rounders last year
• GWS may have all those picks but the new rule is they can only USE the number that match their list vacancies.  Their total number of list vacancies isn't settled yet, just like ours isn't.  To take it to it's extreme, in theory we hold 47, 69, 84, 102, 120, 138, 156, 174.  Further confirmation that these late picks do actually exist is that pick 135 was traded for a player!  In addition the rule only came in this year so any future picks they were already holding this year from last year's trading are exempt - I'm not sure if any are?
• If you trade future 1st you must hold future other rounds (see Hawthorn above).  If you hold future 1st you can trade all other rounds
• Yeah the Geelong one is weird.  In theory it's fine because they must use 2 in 4 years which means they have to use 1sts in 2017 and 2018 but they don't have a 2017 1st.  How can the guarantee they'll be able to trade into next year's 1st round?

Edited October 20, 2016 by Fifty-5

[Lucifers Hero 37,173]

 

It's complex Luke but I don't think all of your analysis is correct:

• Hawthorn did trade out 2017 1st and 2nd but I believe they hold Carlton's 2017 2nd so are able to count that just like we could count 2 1st rounders last year
• GWS may have all those picks but the new rule is they can only USE the number that match their list vacancies.  Their total number of list vacancies isn't settled yet, just like ours isn't.  To take it to it's extreme, in theory we hold 47, 69, 84, 102, 120, 138, 156, 174.  Further confirmation that these late picks do actually exist is that pick 135 was traded for a player!  In addition the rule only came in this year so any future picks they were already holding this year from last year's trading are exempt - I'm not sure if any are?
• If you trade future 1st you must hold future other rounds (see Hawthorn above).  If you hold future 1st you can trade all other rounds
• Yeah the Geelong one is weird.  In theory it's fine because they must use 2 in 4 years which means they have to use 1sts in 2017 and 2018 but they don't have a 2017 1st.  How can the guarantee they'll be able to trade into next year's 1st round?

I think you are right re Hawks 2017 2nd rnd pick.  Message to self: do not rely on newspaper reports - check AFL website!

Given that, your reasoning is more balanced than mine.  I will put an edit in my earlier post to reference yours.

The GWS one is interesting - what is the point of the AFL rule picks = vacancies (to stop Academy clubs downgrading picks)?

It does seem that Hawks and Cats are throwing the dice a bit of not recruiting young player and leaving themselves exposed on 1st round picks.  They may end up where Tigers and Roos are with that strategy!

[old55 21,360]

 

I think you are right re Hawks 2017 2nd rnd pick.  Message to self: do not rely on newspaper reports - check AFL website!

Given that, your reasoning is more balanced than mine.  I will put an edit in my earlier post to reference yours.

The GWS one is interesting - what is the point of the AFL rule picks = vacancies (to stop Academy clubs downgrading picks)?

It does seem that Hawks and Cats are throwing the dice a bit of not recruiting young player and leaving themselves exposed on 1st round picks.  They may end up where Tigers and Roos are with that strategy!

Yes the point of the rule is to stop Academy clubs from downgrading early picks for bulk later picks with points - a loophole we exploited last year.  I don't have a full audit on how GWS got all those picks, but I agree with you that it is very hard to see them having 11 list vacancies to be able to use that pick 60 in a bid 

What is does mean is that either way our pick 69 will come in a long way.

Edited October 20, 2016 by Fifty-5

[jnrmac 19,077]

 

Yes the point of the rule is to stop Academy clubs from downgrading early picks for bulk later picks with points - a loophole we exploited last year.  I don't have a full audit on how GWS got all those picks, but I agree with you that it is very hard to see them having 11 list vacancies to be able to use that pick 60 in a bid 

What is does mean is that either way our pick 69 will come in a long way.

And don't GWS have to trim their list this year in any case?

[chook fowler 18,316]

 

I like sticking the boot into Hawthorn as much as the next person, but Smith was arrogant and smug for lining up to kick a goal on the siren?

Agree. Plus Isaac Smith, as a rule, is one of the best kicks at Whorethawn.