POST MATCH DISCUSSION - Round 17

[picket fence 15,152]

2 hours ago, Akum said:

ANB's problem is that he tears it up as No.1 mid for the Scorps, then when he gets promoted, has to play HFF.

In games where we get smashed, HFF is a real graveyard - all the traffic is the other way except for the odd scrappy kick which is easily picked off by the defence. So he has no effect on the game and he gets dropped.

He never gets the chance to prove himself as a mid at AFL level. The same applies to all our Scorps mids that get promoted.

Not Dissimmilar to Michie who was sensational for the scorps Sunday but is slow and just a bit parts player in the ones. We seem to have more of these types of players in our teams 

Lokk at the list who cannot get a game and there is one common aspect they are all too SLOW 

Newton, Michie, Dunn,Garland etc I would also include Grimes in this bunch and clealy except for Garland who has a 3 year deal would trade all of them out at years end! Not to Mention O Mac who is slow as treacle! in ones! Tyson aint quick neither is Kennedy! We have too many 2nd gear players this MUST be rectified at seasons end! Pace Pace and more pace is the answer!

Edited July 19, 2016 by picket fence

[Dwight Schrute 16,751]

On 7/19/2016 at 10:17 AM, picket fence said:

Not Dissimmilar to Michie who was sensational for the scorps Sunday but is slow and just a bit parts player in the ones. We seem to have more of these types of players in our teams 

Lokk at the list who cannot get a game and there is one common aspect they are all too SLOW 

Newton, Michie, Dunn,Garland etc I would also include Grimes in this bunch and clealy except for Garland who has a 3 year deal would trade all of them out at years end! Not to Mention O Mac who is slow as treacle! in ones! Tyson aint quick neither is Kennedy! We have too many 2nd gear players this MUST be rectified at seasons end! Pace Pace and more pace is the answer!

Kennedy certainly isn't slow picket, not like the guys you've mentioned here.

[Jumping Jack Clennett 1,615]

Point kick ins.

Did any other Demonlanders notice that after each of our ( many) kick ins after points, we failed to clear the ball past 60 m, and were immediately under pressure?

In marked contrast, StKilda kick ins resulted in forward thrusts,rapidly putting our defence under pressure.

Bernie did most of the kick ins, and he usually does it well. But against the Saints, there appeared to be no options( no one running to offer leads). He either had to take the short option to the pocket, or the highly predictable  long and wide kick to Gawn, who was well covered by Saint talls.

St K seemed to be able to find a bloke unattended at 55 metres, who could play on , and start a fast entry into their forward 50.

It  was particularly noticeable after StK's run of 5 behinds in Q 3. Every time , we failed to clear the ball from defence, the way they could.

[stuie 7,374]

4 minutes ago, Jumping Jack Clennett said:

Point kick ins.

Did any other Demonlanders notice that after each of our ( many) kick ins after points, we failed to clear the ball past 60 m, and were immediately under pressure?

In marked contrast, StKilda kick ins resulted in forward thrusts,rapidly putting our defence under pressure.

Bernie did most of the kick ins, and he usually does it well. But against the Saints, there appeared to be no options( no one running to offer leads). He either had to take the short option to the pocket, or the highly predictable  long and wide kick to Gawn, who was well covered by Saint talls.

St K seemed to be able to find a bloke unattended at 55 metres, who could play on , and start a fast entry into their forward 50.

It  was particularly noticeable after StK's run of 5 behinds in Q 3. Every time , we failed to clear the ball from defence, the way they could.

Harmes took most of the kick ins didn't he? Bernie's kicking was way off due to his shin injury.

 

[picket fence 15,152]

10 minutes ago, Jumping Jack Clennett said:

Point kick ins.

Did any other Demonlanders notice that after each of our ( many) kick ins after points, we failed to clear the ball past 60 m, and were immediately under pressure?

In marked contrast, StKilda kick ins resulted in forward thrusts,rapidly putting our defence under pressure.

Bernie did most of the kick ins, and he usually does it well. But against the Saints, there appeared to be no options( no one running to offer leads). He either had to take the short option to the pocket, or the highly predictable  long and wide kick to Gawn, who was well covered by Saint talls.

St K seemed to be able to find a bloke unattended at 55 metres, who could play on , and start a fast entry into their forward 50.

It  was particularly noticeable after StK's run of 5 behinds in Q 3. Every time , we failed to clear the ball from defence, the way they could.

Why after a million years are we one of thefew clubs that havent perfected a kick in strategy and as shown Sunday we then have to kick to a contest! Crap Footy!

[BrisbaneDemon 1,494]

34 minutes ago, Jumping Jack Clennett said:

Point kick ins.

Did any other Demonlanders notice that after each of our ( many) kick ins after points, we failed to clear the ball past 60 m, and were immediately under pressure?

In marked contrast, StKilda kick ins resulted in forward thrusts,rapidly putting our defence under pressure.

Bernie did most of the kick ins, and he usually does it well. But against the Saints, there appeared to be no options( no one running to offer leads). He either had to take the short option to the pocket, or the highly predictable  long and wide kick to Gawn, who was well covered by Saint talls.

St K seemed to be able to find a bloke unattended at 55 metres, who could play on , and start a fast entry into their forward 50.

It  was particularly noticeable after StK's run of 5 behinds in Q 3. Every time , we failed to clear the ball from defence, the way they could.

Spot on mate, Jonno Brown said on the couch a few weeks back, that to be a really good team you need to have you best kicks in the back line, we currently have, T Mac, Harmes, Wagner and Hunt, rotating through there, although three of them are young they don't fill you with confidence when they have the ball on their hands. H and Salem would help.  We really need to trade and draft some quality backs with good foot skills over the preseason.  Bernie does go back but he was on one leg on Sunday, he shouldn't of played

[ArtificialWisdom 3,852]

27 minutes ago, Jumping Jack Clennett said:

Point kick ins.

Did any other Demonlanders notice that after each of our ( many) kick ins after points, we failed to clear the ball past 60 m, and were immediately under pressure?

In marked contrast, StKilda kick ins resulted in forward thrusts,rapidly putting our defence under pressure.

Bernie did most of the kick ins, and he usually does it well. But against the Saints, there appeared to be no options( no one running to offer leads). He either had to take the short option to the pocket, or the highly predictable  long and wide kick to Gawn, who was well covered by Saint talls.

St K seemed to be able to find a bloke unattended at 55 metres, who could play on , and start a fast entry into their forward 50.

It  was particularly noticeable after StK's run of 5 behinds in Q 3. Every time , we failed to clear the ball from defence, the way they could.

I think you will find that is a reflection on our poor forward half pressure compared to theirs. They sprint to set up 'the wall' we jog and when you're playing against an outside team like the saints you get killed by that lack of defencive running.

Kick ins should be the easiest thing to defend but we allow easy coast to coast transition. Even when we shut it down we do so on the wing instead on a flank. This is why our zone is so hit and miss. Too often our defenders are forced to push up and shutdown the transition on the wing when the forwards and mids have let slip. Defenders get it right and we get a chance for another forward entry if they don't we are hopelessly outnumbered and killed in the overlap. Our defenders currently have to play the midfield defence and back 50 defence. Is it the fault of our midfielders or forwards? I cant answer that maybe it is both.

The other problem with where we force the turnover is if we go for a repeat entry we are kicking it to 40-50m out which is the worst place to kick to defenders can cover it to easily. You want deeper entries 20-30m is more dangerous if we can get those forward half turnovers happening more we should be able to help our scoring alot more. Helped stkilda, albiet they didnt kick straight.

[old55 21,303]

AFLCA votes interesting:

ST KILDA v MELBOURNE
10 Tom Hickey (StK)
8 Tim Membrey (StK)
6 Jack Viney (Melb)
2 Sean Dempster (StK)
2 Jack Newnes (StK)
1 Jarryn Geary (StK)
1 Leigh Montagna (StK)

[old55 21,303]

4 minutes ago, Fifty-5 said:

AFLCA votes interesting:

ST KILDA v MELBOURNE
10 Tom Hickey (StK)
8 Tim Membrey (StK)
6 Jack Viney (Melb)
2 Sean Dempster (StK)
2 Jack Newnes (StK)
1 Jarryn Geary (StK)
1 Leigh Montagna (StK)

in other games looks like Pyke and Bucks had completely different views in their match ...

ADELAIDE v COLLINGWOOD
5 Brad Crouch (Adel)
5 Tom Lynch (Adel)
4 Rory Sloane (Adel)
4 Daniel Talia (Adel)
3 Ricky Henderson (Adel)
3 Jarryd Lyons (Adel)
2 Ben Sinclair (Coll)
2 Adam Treloar (Coll)
1 Taylor Adams (Coll)
1 Brodie Grundy (Coll)

[FarNorthernD 5,839]

1 hour ago, Fifty-5 said:

in other games looks like Pyke and Bucks had completely different views in their match ...

ADELAIDE v COLLINGWOOD
5 Brad Crouch (Adel)
5 Tom Lynch (Adel)
4 Rory Sloane (Adel)
4 Daniel Talia (Adel)
3 Ricky Henderson (Adel)
3 Jarryd Lyons (Adel)
2 Ben Sinclair (Coll)
2 Adam Treloar (Coll)
1 Taylor Adams (Coll)
1 Brodie Grundy (Coll)

You don't often see such a disparity do you. If two AFL professionals at the pointyest part of the industry can't agree on even one player it is no wonder we disagree to such an extent on boards like Demonland.

It is such a subjective game and beauty is in the eye of the beholder even for a highly paid coach.

[Binmans PA 26,053]

Prestia and Crouch. Thanks very much.

[Cheap Seats 3,300]

I am just going to throw this out there, I've dwelled on the game for the past couple of days, and there is no doubt the boys went to sleep for at 30 - 40 mins... And although we are all disappointed in losing to the Aints again, at Etihad again, the exact same way as probably the last 4 times (if not the past 13 times) continuing the rubbish in the media blah blah blah 

Does anyone think there is a benefit from us playing young kids and sticking to our style for 4 qtrs? Geelong did it back in 04 & 05 before turning the corner. We knew (all of us - coaches, players & supporters) what the Saints were going to bring - Pressure and rebound front running.

We also knew we probably didn't have leg speed to match them - We also know Etihad is a fast track and teams who rebound excel there (dogs and saints are prime examples, haven't the saints won 56 out of 60 at Etihad or some rubbish/? Ch 7 commentary replay will give the stats)

Was there some good signs from the game that we played our game style for 4 qtrs, should have taken the lead in the final qtr, coming back from Darwin, playing kids and got very close to getting the chocolates?

There is no doubt we lack true leg speed to match it with the really good rebounding sides - who continute to beat us - Port, Saints, Dogs, Hawks etc. And although there is a lot of short term pain, will blokes like Hunt, Wagner, Brayshaw, Trac, Kent, O Mac etc etc be able to take the experience build on it in the offseason and enable us to play 4 qtrs. of Dees footy, will the tide finally turn?

Or am I way out here and it's all just negatives and Doom and Gloom? When do we lift the veil?

[jnrmac 18,954]

1 hour ago, Unleash Hell said:

I am just going to throw this out there, I've dwelled on the game for the past couple of days, and there is no doubt the boys went to sleep for at 30 - 40 mins... And although we are all disappointed in losing to the Aints again, at Etihad again, the exact same way as probably the last 4 times (if not the past 13 times) continuing the rubbish in the media blah blah blah 

Does anyone think there is a benefit from us playing young kids and sticking to our style for 4 qtrs? Geelong did it back in 04 & 05 before turning the corner. We knew (all of us - coaches, players & supporters) what the Saints were going to bring - Pressure and rebound front running.

We also knew we probably didn't have leg speed to match them - We also know Etihad is a fast track and teams who rebound excel there (dogs and saints are prime examples, haven't the saints won 56 out of 60 at Etihad or some rubbish/? Ch 7 commentary replay will give the stats)

Was there some good signs from the game that we played our game style for 4 qtrs, should have taken the lead in the final qtr, coming back from Darwin, playing kids and got very close to getting the chocolates?

There is no doubt we lack true leg speed to match it with the really good rebounding sides - who continute to beat us - Port, Saints, Dogs, Hawks etc. And although there is a lot of short term pain, will blokes like Hunt, Wagner, Brayshaw, Trac, Kent, O Mac etc etc be able to take the experience build on it in the offseason and enable us to play 4 qtrs. of Dees footy, will the tide finally turn?

Or am I way out here and it's all just negatives and Doom and Gloom? When do we lift the veil?

I think he problem is we HAVE been sticking to our style. And its easy to coach against and we have no plan B.

[junk 342]

Our problem is we don't have suitable reserves who can step up.Good Casey form does not equal good senior form. ANB,GRIMES,TRENGOVE are proven cases. When we recruited Brayshaw and Petracca we ended up with good backup mids in Harmes and Hunt (not always good) however we don't have good back up forwards in Weeds and Huelett their Casey form is far from satisfactory and they may not be playing senior footy in 2016. Dunn,Garland,Dawes and Lumumba are probably  spent. White is not consistent yet, our defence is lacking experience and skill. Leadership is important and it is about time the captain makes a stand. I think that some of P.Roos comments are lame and have nothing to do with how he is going to recify the problem regarding beating the Saints and Bombers. Probably Gawn needs to play forward with Spencer doing the ruck work.

[bing181 8,165]

1 hour ago, jnrmac said:

I think he problem is we HAVE been sticking to our style. And its easy to coach against and we have no plan B.

Simply not true, as the players themselves (Viney, now Kent) have publicly acknowledged.

[Cheap Seats 3,300]

1 hour ago, jnrmac said:

I think he problem is we HAVE been sticking to our style. And its easy to coach against and we have no plan B.

How many sides do you reckon have a plan b?

I don't watch tons of games every week, i dont claim to be an expert, and can easily be proven wrong, but i am not sure plan b even exists. Name me any inexperienced or developing afl sides who have a plan b?

I can't think of many if any sides that swap their entire game style mid game. Every team makes positional changes depending on situations but that's not really a plan b. But if u say that is then you can't say we dont do it because that would be a lie.

And in your humble opinion would plan b be dependent on the experience of the group. I mean as a coach if they cant get plan a right what is the point of plan b? Surely that would be irresponsible coaching?

But lets not facts get in front of the veil?

Edited July 19, 2016 by Unleash Hell

[jnrmac 18,954]

41 minutes ago, Unleash Hell said:

How many sides do you reckon have a plan b?

I don't watch tons of games every week, i dont claim to be an expert, and can easily be proven wrong, but i am not sure plan b even exists. Name me any inexperienced or developing afl sides who have a plan b?

I can't think of many if any sides that swap their entire game style mid game. Every team makes positional changes depending on situations but that's not really a plan b. But if u say that is then you can't say we dont do it because that would be a lie.

And in your humble opinion would plan b be dependent on the experience of the group. I mean as a coach if they cant get plan a right what is the point of plan b? Surely that would be irresponsible coaching?

But lets not facts get in front of the veil?

A lot have a plan B, C and D.

They have set plays, they have leaders who step up when an opposition team get 2 or 3 in a row. They slow the game down, they keep possession etc etc

We vary things very little. And we are still terrible at kick ins. Defending a kick in is unbelievably poor - there were at least 3 occasions when the Saints delayed a player cming on to the ground so that they could kick in to them unattended. We could all see it but none of our onfield leaders or coaches could seem to.

My 2 cents...

[Akum 2,660]

25 minutes ago, Unleash Hell said:

How many sides do you reckon have a plan b?

I don't watch tons of games every week, i dont claim to be an expert, and can easily be proven wrong, but i am not sure plan b even exists. Name me any inexperienced or developing afl sides who have a plan b?

I can't think of many if any sides that swap their entire game style mid game. Every team makes positional changes depending on situations but that's not really a plan b. But if u say that is then you can't say we dont do it because that would be a lie.

And in your humble opinion would plan b be dependent on the experience of the group. I mean as a coach if they cant get plan a right what is the point of plan b? Surely that would be irresponsible coaching?

But lets not facts get in front of the veil?

No, it's not a "plan b" - as in a totally different game plan that we switch to at some point in the game - that we need. But we do need to be able to tweak our existing game plan to meet certain challenges that arise.

For example, we smash other team in first quarter with lightning fast attacks running it thru the corridor. Other team then closes it down. It's useless to keep trying to run it through an increasingly congested corridor, or trying to hit teammates in places that are tighter & tighter in said corridor. We sure to lose unless we have other ways to move the ball forward when the corridor is shut.

Another example: other team nullifies Gawn at stoppages (legally or otherwise). Mids aren't getting his hitouts to advantage, so we're struggling to get clean possession at stoppages & clearances, which we really need to do because we suck at creating chains of uncontested possessions. It's useless to just keep on trying to do what's not going to work and battle away trying to crash through every pack at stoppages. And it's certainly no use just bring in other players to the stoppages in the hope that they'll find a way through when our top mids haven't. We're sure to lose unless our mids have another strategy that they can decide, as a unit, to use if we can't get clean ball away from stoppages. 

We need to work out where our game plan is most vulnerable, and work out a solid response to put into action if our opponent opens up that vulnerability. Just simple old-fashioned risk management. Or else we'll never do better than 10th or 11th for the next few years.

[bing181 8,165]

23 minutes ago, Akum said:

Just simple old-fashioned risk management. 

Suspect that just simple old-fashioned want the ball more than the other bloke would go a long way to sorting out a lot of our shortcomings.

[Binmans PA 26,053]

4 hours ago, ENYAW said:

Our problem is we don't have suitable reserves who can step up.Good Casey form does not equal good senior form. ANB,GRIMES,TRENGOVE are proven cases. When we recruited Brayshaw and Petracca we ended up with good backup mids in Harmes and Hunt (not always good) however we don't have good back up forwards in Weeds and Huelett their Casey form is far from satisfactory and they may not be playing senior footy in 2016. Dunn,Garland,Dawes and Lumumba are probably  spent. White is not consistent yet, our defence is lacking experience and skill. Leadership is important and it is about time the captain makes a stand. I think that some of P.Roos comments are lame and have nothing to do with how he is going to recify the problem regarding beating the Saints and Bombers. Probably Gawn needs to play forward with Spencer doing the ruck work.

Absolute twaddle. They're developing in the twos like the top clubs develop their younger KPFs. We're not going to throw them to the wolves like we have in the past.

Mids are a different prospect. Some are plug and play, but even if they're not ready to take the step straight away, as a rule midfielders take less time to develop.

Edited July 19, 2016 by AdamFphlebeb

[Cheap Seats 3,300]

8 hours ago, Akum said:

No, it's not a "plan b" - as in a totally different game plan that we switch to at some point in the game - that we need. But we do need to be able to tweak our existing game plan to meet certain challenges that arise.

For example, we smash other team in first quarter with lightning fast attacks running it thru the corridor. Other team then closes it down. It's useless to keep trying to run it through an increasingly congested corridor, or trying to hit teammates in places that are tighter & tighter in said corridor. We sure to lose unless we have other ways to move the ball forward when the corridor is shut.

Another example: other team nullifies Gawn at stoppages (legally or otherwise). Mids aren't getting his hitouts to advantage, so we're struggling to get clean possession at stoppages & clearances, which we really need to do because we suck at creating chains of uncontested possessions. It's useless to just keep on trying to do what's not going to work and battle away trying to crash through every pack at stoppages. And it's certainly no use just bring in other players to the stoppages in the hope that they'll find a way through when our top mids haven't. We're sure to lose unless our mids have another strategy that they can decide, as a unit, to use if we can't get clean ball away from stoppages. 

We need to work out where our game plan is most vulnerable, and work out a solid response to put into action if our opponent opens up that vulnerability. Just simple old-fashioned risk management. Or else we'll never do better than 10th or 11th for the next few years.

I agree with everything you've said.

But there are mitigating factors to why this can't be achieved at this stage in 2016.

We are not Hawthorn who have 10 years experience at doing this. We are literally year 1 in to our 'style'.

Maybe the reasons we drop.off so dramatically are due to inexperience and inability (fatigue youth and other factors) to play our 'style' for 120 mins. Roos has consistently said this in his pressers.

And if we can't consistently get plan a correct. What makes us think automatically plannb will work snd be executed?

Sadly we don't have those great leaders like a Hodge or McVeigh  etc to execute said plans.

Really if you look at the teams that can do it they all.have great leaders and experience across the board.

I'm not saying we shouldn't aim for it i am just saying its more likey we cant execute a and b. Or the coaches have said they (players) need to execute planna before we introduxe plan b. Indont know i am only speculating 

I am.not writing off your point jnr I just think we as a group of supporters are a negative bunch  (and rightly so for a lot of reasons) and there are multiple reasons why we keep being inconsistent through out the season and games.

 

Edited July 19, 2016 by Unleash Hell
Phone

[praha 10,278]

Oh Go, the "honest reviews" are starting.

http://www.melbournefc.com.au/news/2016-07-19/honest-review-completed-kent

Eagles by 80.

[DubDee 20,584]

i can't believe how flat and gutted I still am.  The anger was there for 48 hours and is now gone and now I just don't care anymore

we can't beat St Kilda. ST KILDA!?  far out. i know its pathetic but I was looking forward to allowing myself to dream of finals for a couple more weeks (seeing this be the saints in the news is brutal).

when are we going to stand up?  everyone aside from Viney need to take a good look in the mirror.

not sure I can get up the interest to watch the WC game - good start by the Dees, the umpires bend us over  and WC kick 8 to nothing in the last Q.  you could write the script now

[stuie 7,374]

1 hour ago, praha said:

Oh Go, the "honest reviews" are starting.

http://www.melbournefc.com.au/news/2016-07-19/honest-review-completed-kent

Eagles by 80.

“West Coast last year was at that pinnacle of their game, but in the Grand Final they couldn’t quite do it,” he said.

“We see their game plan this year as still pretty similar, but inconsistent. They’ve won a few games by a hair, so we don’t see their game style as bullet proof."

 

Make that 180, praha.

[old dee 22,854]

24 minutes ago, stuie said:

“West Coast last year was at that pinnacle of their game, but in the Grand Final they couldn’t quite do it,” he said.

“We see their game plan this year as still pretty similar, but inconsistent. They’ve won a few games by a hair, so we don’t see their game style as bullet proof."

 

Make that 180, praha.

I take little notice of these interviews with players as by nature they have to sound positive.

I have never seen one from any player at any club that said

"you know we are not playing well at present and to be honest we have five players who are not up top this level.

Sadly I will be surprised if we end our drought of wins in WA this year."