10 minutes ago, GawnWithTheWind said:

Demonland provides the sad realisation that we spend more time worrying about our players leaving then enjoying September football.

The media talk about the dogs drought, all they have to do is come online here and see the real supporters pain.

And with all the crap being said in here, Jesse is still in the top 5 most important people to help us into September. 

How sad it is....

GWTW...there was a time I fussed over the list as it were. I was very concerned about this player or that and the primary reason was because I felt it was so much dependent upon them  as I had little faith in the coaches and fd behind them.

Now I think the coaching , for the most part , has been excellent and ought to become even more aggressive on game days etc. I think the FD has a very good handle on things and are making far more advances than slip ups.

So , this  in mind, the list is the list.. que sera

in other news...what a cracking game last night

As good as Hogan might/could be the club is always bigger than any individual.  He's potentially a top footballer who has a few football issues to sort out ... principally his kicking action and a few other less major issues.

I thought he might have made a decision by now and I believe that money could be the real stumbling block.  May well be wrong of course but money is often the issue when there are delays of this sort.  Not sure that PJ likes handing out big contracts.

The club needs to make list management decisions and we may be forced into trading for another key forward or at least drafting for 1 or 2 KPF's ... even a conservative approach from a list management point of view might arrive at that sort of decision.  We don't want to be making list management decisions based on a significant hope.

He'd be a real loss and we'd need to replace him 'like for like' - but replacing in a like for like manner is easier said than done ... drafting doesn't give definitive outcomes and you've got to give up a lot to trade in a decent KPF too. 

Our current stocks (apart from Hogan) include 2 unproven kids (Weideman & Hulett) a bloke who can't take a contested mark (Dawes) and another who can't also be relied upon (Pedersen)  Watts is not a KPF. 

The club appears to be in a bind but maybe our plan B is a good one.  At a guess I reckon there's a lot we don't know.  As previously stated, I'd much prefer if Hogan re-signs a lengthy contract (for the MFC)  

51 minutes ago, GawnWithTheWind said:

Demonland provides the sad realisation that we spend more time worrying about our players leaving then enjoying September football.

The media talk about the dogs drought, all they have to do is come online here and see the real supporters pain.

And with all the crap being said in here, Jesse is still in the top 5 most important people to help us into September. 

How sad it is....

Speak for yourself.

3 hours ago, ProDee said:

On the contrary, Jeremy Cameron highlighted the value of a quality key forward.  If Cameron plays even a poor to average game they win.  He plays an utter stinker (1 mark - no goals) and will have nightmares for 6 months.

Great teams with a great key forward will give you the chance of a dynasty.  Great teams with no great key forward 'may' sneak a flag.

The Swans will have to have a mare next week for Dogs to get up. 

 

I see what you're saying, but it's no coincidence that the dogs have kept tall forwards pretty much a non factor this finals series. They defend as a team as good as anyone out there.

 

8 minutes ago, Generation dee said:

I see what you're saying, but it's no coincidence that the dogs have kept tall forwards pretty much a non factor this finals series. They defend as a team as good as anyone out there.

 

Indeed. But in terms of rhe doggies being used as evidence of the declining need for a power forward ut should be noted they poached one and are paying him more than a million per year.

20 hours ago, Guest said:

Sorry but that is a terrible deal for Freo and Melbourne.

I reckon straight swap Hogan for Fyffe!

4 minutes ago, binman said:

Indeed. But in terms of rhe doggies being used as evidence of the declining need for a power forward ut should be noted they poached one and are paying him more than a million per year.

Agreed, who is now playing ruck! 

9 minutes ago, Generation dee said:

I see what you're saying, but it's no coincidence that the dogs have kept tall forwards pretty much a non factor this finals series. They defend as a team as good as anyone out there.

 

Sure, but if Tom Lynch from Gold Coast was available do you think they'd fit him in ?

Clearly, there's more than one way to win finals and maybe even a flag, but a quality key is still one of the first players I'd pick. 

With 18 teams and a diluted talent pool clubs have to adjust to perhaps not having one, but every club wants one and you're more likely to build a team that has 'sustained' success with one.

When we challenge for a flag and hopefully win one I want a sustained period of success and multiple flags.  A great key forward makes it more likely.

And remember, the games evolves and while you may be able to get away with not having one now it doesn't mean you will in 3 years.

KPF's are always going to be invaluable and might become more invaluable down the track ... if Hogan re-signs our club might be looking at finding another KPF anyway.  There are no guarantees with the rest of our KPF's regardless of the faith & hope argument.

If we ever got to the stage where we had an abundance of good KPF's, we'd be in a very strong trading position as a consequence.  Win/win. 

Let's face it, when we've been a good team, we've always had decent or excellent KPF's (Neitz,  Robbo, the Ox,  Bennett,  Jakovich,  Lyon etc)

35 minutes ago, ProDee said:

Speak for yourself.

I did 

I wonder, maybe it's time for an individual player salary cap?

9% of a club's salary cap, maybe? That's approximately 4x the average over 44 players, which would make it about ten times a starting player salary, and close to a million a year. So hardly a tight rein.

It's just seems a bit ridiculous that a club might hesitate to hold onto their top players because it screws up their entire team structure.

12 minutes ago, Little Goffy said:

I wonder, maybe it's time for an individual player salary cap?

9% of a club's salary cap, maybe? That's approximately 4x the average over 44 players, which would make it about ten times a starting player salary, and close to a million a year. So hardly a tight rein.

It's just seems a bit ridiculous that a club might hesitate to hold onto their top players because it screws up their entire team structure.

Not required.

The good clubs manage their cap and players.

Sounds like what they have in the NBA.

 

Becoming more and more obvious that teams need to be able to trade without player permission - as long as the contract is honored, that's all that matters.

The AFLPA should be pushing for a higher "minimum" salary per player.

 

And yes, trade without player permission is required. It wasn't required when the draft was a genuine "stick" for the players, but since they basically choose their own destination regardless of their contract status it is now needed.

 

Just bite the bullet: draftees get 3 year contracts, followed by automatic free agency after initial contract and free trading by clubs without permission at any time.

2 minutes ago, deanox said:

The AFLPA should be pushing for a higher "minimum" salary per player.

 

And yes, trade without player permission is required. It wasn't required when the draft was a genuine "stick" for the players, but since they basically choose their own destination regardless of their contract status it is now needed.

 

Just bite the bullet: draftees get 3 year contracts, followed by automatic free agency after initial contract and free trading by clubs without permission at any time.

It will happen. Contracts and player length of service mean nothing now

4 hours ago, Little Goffy said:

I wonder, maybe it's time for an individual player salary cap?

9% of a club's salary cap, maybe? That's approximately 4x the average over 44 players, which would make it about ten times a starting player salary, and close to a million a year. So hardly a tight rein.

It's just seems a bit ridiculous that a club might hesitate to hold onto their top players because it screws up their entire team structure.

Maybe some merit in that but I think more urgent is to reduce the salary cap floor. Forcing all clubs to pay 95% - 100% is absurd.

8 hours ago, Fat Tony said:

Who was Geelong's great key forward? I don't even think Hawthorn had one after Buddy left.

IMO last nights game showed how effective modern team defensive strategies have become at nullifying the power forwards. Cameron clearly didn't work hard enough last night, but there wasn't many instances I saw where he was involved in the play and made significant errors. (I would also doubt he covered significantly different territory than his usual distance covered.) And this was against a Dogs team that has a below average set of tall defenders.

I loved the game in the 80s and 90s when key forwards were the most important players in the game. But the game has changed and coaches are not willing to let key forwards contest one on one. The midfield is where most games are now won and lost.

What about this year's top 8? Sydney have Franklin and Tippett, West Coast have Kennedy and Darling, Adelaide have Walker, Jenkins and Lynch, North have Brown, Waite and Petrie, Hawthorn have Gunston and Sicily (and would have had Roughead if circumstances allowed it), GWS have Cameron, Patton and Lobb, Geelong have Hawkins and Smith and often rotated Henderson and/or Taylor through the forward line too. The Dogs even have Dickson, Roughead and Boyd.

Yes, teams can win flags without having a big key forward, but that doesn't mean that teams with a big key forward are at a disadvantage. Indeed, I would argue the opposite. 2016 finalists all had at least one good, strong key forward, most of them had two, some even had three.

Am I the only one who thinks Sydney's Sam Reid would be a good option is Jesse left? 

1 hour ago, DemonLad5 said:

Am I the only one who thinks Sydney's Sam Reid would be a good option is Jesse left? 

Yes

1 hour ago, DemonLad5 said:

Am I the only one who thinks Sydney's Sam Reid would be a good option is Jesse left? 

He can't get on the park. 

Big grain of salt.

Bumped into a bloke wearing Demons shorts in Potts Point (Sydney) yesterday. I asked the obvious - "you go for the Dees mate?", to which he responded "yep. Used to work for the club actually." Didn't recognise him.

We chatted very briefly. Good guy. Discussed how the future's looking super bright etc.

He then said, "need to sign Hogan though." I agreed. He then said, "the club will trade him this trade period if his signature's looking shaky. The trade value is too great to let it sit for another year on a wing and a prayer."

All obvious stuff. And I don't know if the guy has any inside knowledge but he said it in a way that suggested he knew what he was talking about.

At best, this possibly advances the discussion by about one millimetre though.

 

Have heard that he and mgr have been given 3 week period to commit or we will seek trade this time around. 

14 minutes ago, Harbinger43 said:

Have heard that he and mgr have been given 3 week period to commit or we will seek trade this time around. 

Who are you, Harbinger? 

Reveal yourself!

Heard today that the problem is with the manager. He is Western Australian and has no feeling for the dees, therefore would suit both his WA sensibilities and his pay packet to have Jesse move home. Jesse is happy and club is confidant he would stay if it wasn't for the influence of the manager.

anyone hear Mick Malthouse talking on sen a few days ago? He described In his years as coach at Collingwood, of 2 or 3 player managers having way too much influence over players' decisions, for their own advantage not for that of the player or the club.

 

23 minutes ago, Harbinger43 said:

Have heard that he and mgr have been given 3 week period to commit or we will seek trade this time around. 

If true that would give us 3 days to do a trade.