The Jesse Hogan Panic Room - all contract talk here

[nutbean 8,837]

1 hour ago, pineapple dee said:

Can anyone tell me why he walked to the half back flank at the start of the Carlton game ?? For the life of me , i couldn't work that out.

Seriously ? 

Without any insight there is only one answer. It is the same reason at various times you saw Petracca and Kent coming off the back of the square at centre bounces and why we see Watts sitting in the backline towards the end of a quarter.

Coaches instructions ?

[John Crow Batty 8,291]

1 hour ago, Demons11 said:

Are you some of you kidding yourselves!!!! He is our best key forward and will be our best player within 2 years. He will be a top 5 goal kicker in the comp for the next 10 years and is they key to our future success. 

Supporters or trolls who think we would be better off without him, have no idea.  Key forwards who have done what he has done in his first 2 years are once in a lifetime players and sadly players we have not seen much of at the Dees in the last 10 years.    He has some things to work on but what 2nd year player doesn't?

His signature is essential.

What do Mark Jackson, Allen Jackovich, Brendon Fevola, Matthew Richardson, Tony Lockett and Gary Ablett Snr have in common?

Edited August 23, 2016 by america de cali

[Demons11 6,404]

8 minutes ago, america de cali said:

What do Mark Jackson, Allen Jackovich, Brendon Fevola, Matthew Richardson, Tony Lockett and Gary Ablett Snr have in common?

Not sure 

[Binmans PA 26,380]

Some of the comments directed towards Jesse are warranted, such as the need to improve his goal kicking and lay more tackles, but other detractions I would place into two boxes.

1) unrealistic expectations for a CHF in his second full season. Compare him with whomever you like and statswise, he'll knock them out of the park. Carey, Ablett, even Tom Lynch if you want. If you expect him to come in and win the Coleman and kick goals every week, I'd class these as unrealistic expectations for a young forward being double and triple teamed every week. It's also worth noting he has actually statistically improved his tackle count on his first season.

2) a bit of the old defence mechanism. It'd be very interesting to know if half the posters that knock him now, would do so had he signed earlier in the year. I think this failure to put pen to paper has contributed to frustration within MFC supporter ranks and fair enough to a degree. So in turn much of this response, I believe, is a defence mechanism in response to the possibility of him leaving. But you still have to remember he is a 21 year old CHF, playing the toughest position on the ground, in a forwardline that has (at times) placed an overemphasis on passing and looking for him.

Don't expect the best from Jesse for another 2-3 years. If he's kicking 40-odd in his development years, just imagine how good he'll be with natural improvement and experience. The fact that he set the bar so high last year, should not detract from his solid 2016. Would he have liked to kick a little straighter this year? Of course. In all honesty I believe we may have won 2-3 more games had he done so, but ultimately he's still 3 goals outside of the top 10 for goalkickers in the league, so it's not as if he's had an ordinary year. Anyone that choses to spin it that way has an agenda of their own.

Edited August 23, 2016 by A F

[Scipio 5,868]

3 minutes ago, A F said:

Some of the comments directed towards Jesse are warranted, such as a need to improve his goal kicking and lay more tackles, but other detractions I would place into two boxes.

1) unrealistic expectations for a CHF in his second full season. Compare him with whomever you like and statswise, he'll knock them out of the park. Carey, Ablett, even Tom Lynch if you want. If you expect him to come in and win the Coleman and kick goals every week, I'd class these as unrealistic expectations for a young forward being double and tripled teamed every week. It's also worth noting he has actually statistically improved his tackle count on his first season.

2) a bit of the old defence mechanism. It'd be very interesting to know if half the posters that knock him now, would do so had he signed earlier in the year. I think this failure to put pen to paper has contributed to frustration within MFC supporter ranks and fair enough to a degree. But you still have to remember he is a 21 year old CHF, playing the toughest position on the ground, in a forwardline that has (at times) place an overemphasis on passing and looking for him.

Don't expect the best from Jesse for another 2-3 years. If he's kicking 40-odd in his development years, just imagine how good he'll be with natural improvement and experience. The fact that he set the bar so high last year, should not detract from his solid 2016. Would he have liked to kick a little straighter this year? Of course. In all honesty I believe we may have won 2-3 more games had he done so, but ultimately he's still 3 goals outside of the top 10 for goalkickers in the league, so it's not as if he's had an ordinary year. Anyone that choses to spin it that way has an agenda of their own.

Nailed it.

Jesse's development so far has been absolutely phenomenal for a young key forward. Many people seem to forget that he had the best debut season for a forward in recent memory, just last year. He'll continue to develop (this takes time), physically and mentally. He'll mature, and I very much expect it to be with the Dees.

[Gator 16,918]

He took 14 marks on the weekend, including 5 contested marks and people want to unmercifully slag him.

The kicking is an issue, but sort that out and he'll be a leading figure in the competition in year's to come.

[John Crow Batty 8,291]

21 minutes ago, Demons11 said:

Not sure 

All highly talented with brilliant goal kicking resumes but selfiIsh sooky attitudes and thought team rules were their rules. And not one can boast a premiership to his name.

Edited August 23, 2016 by america de cali

[Gator 16,918]

 

There were little signs of a flawed action in 2013, such as the run out to the right with his first goal, but his third goal looks pretty fluid, albeit with that slight hint of a stutter.

There's no reason he can't become a reliable set shot.

[Demon Disciple 11,089]

32 minutes ago, ProDee said:

There were little signs of a flawed action in 2013, such as the run out to the right with his first goal, but his third goal looks pretty fluid, albeit with that slight hint of a stutter.

There's no reason he can't become a reliable set shot.

It's his inconsistent set-shot approach that seems to be causing the most trouble for him. I don't care if he adopts a flawed approach at goal, so long as he finds a consistent routine that gets results, more often than not. 

Josh Kennedy has found a way to make the stutter approach work for him.

[Binmans PA 26,380]

1 hour ago, ProDee said:

 

There were little signs of a flawed action in 2013, such as the run out to the right with his first goal, but his third goal looks pretty fluid, albeit with that slight hint of a stutter.

There's no reason he can't become a reliable set shot.

Agreed. I think given he's usually a beautiful field kick, it's very much a mental thing at the moment and obviously a technique thing when it comes to the set shot.

[nutbean 8,837]

47 minutes ago, america de cali said:

All highly talented with brilliant goal kicking resumes but selfiIsh sooky attitudes and thought team rules were their rules. And not one can boast a premiership to his name.

The same was levelled at Buddy Franklin at his time at Hawthorn - highly individualistic - a couple of premierships.

Even at the Swans - Barry Hall was getting himself suspended and even his best years was guilty of giving away needless free kicks -  a premiership.

You could label both of those "selfish". ( I will also say that drawing the connection between these players and not winning a premiership is a very long bow - Gary Ablett senior played like 10 men in the 1988 grand final and could hardly be faulted for Geelong not winning that day. Tony Lockett played in consistently poor teams and almost took home the big prize with the Swans. And secondly - if you want to draw a connection with brilliant resumes and poor attitudes and not winning premierships then by your logic shouldn't Robbie Flower have about half a dozen premierships to his name ?) 

I also think you being very harsh on his attitude. He absolutely can do better in the body language stakes but even with his kicking yips did he stop presenting on Sunday ? 13 marks of which 5 were contested would tell you otherwise. He is in his second season of football and there is a lot of room for improvement. I wouldn't be quite as panicked on Hogan yet.

[Binmans PA 26,380]

13 minutes ago, nutbean said:

The same was levelled at Buddy Franklin at his time at Hawthorn - highly individualistic - a couple of premierships.

Even at the Swans - Barry Hall was getting himself suspended and even his best years was guilty of giving away needless free kicks -  a premiership.

You could label both of those "selfish". ( I will also say that drawing the connection between these players and not winning a premiership is a very long bow - Gary Ablett senior played like 10 men in the 1988 grand final and could hardly be faulted for Geelong not winning that day. Tony Lockett played in consistently poor teams and almost took home the big prize with the Swans. And secondly - if you want to draw a connection with brilliant resumes and poor attitudes and not winning premierships then by your logic shouldn't Robbie Flower have about half a dozen premierships to his name ?) 

I also think you being very harsh on his attitude. He absolutely can do better in the body language stakes but even with his kicking yips did he stop presenting on Sunday ? 13 marks of which 5 were contested would tell you otherwise. He is in his second season of football and there is a lot of room for improvement. I wouldn't be quite as panicked on Hogan yet.

Yep, good post, N. Your argument there doesn't hold water, ADC.

[John Crow Batty 8,291]

29 minutes ago, nutbean said:

The same was levelled at Buddy Franklin at his time at Hawthorn - highly individualistic - a couple of premierships.

Even at the Swans - Barry Hall was getting himself suspended and even his best years was guilty of giving away needless free kicks -  a premiership.

You could label both of those "selfish". ( I will also say that drawing the connection between these players and not winning a premiership is a very long bow - Gary Ablett senior played like 10 men in the 1988 grand final and could hardly be faulted for Geelong not winning that day. Tony Lockett played in consistently poor teams and almost took home the big prize with the Swans. And secondly - if you want to draw a connection with brilliant resumes and poor attitudes and not winning premierships then by your logic shouldn't Robbie Flower have about half a dozen premierships to his name ?) 

I also think you being very harsh on his attitude. He absolutely can do better in the body language stakes but even with his kicking yips did he stop presenting on Sunday ? 13 marks of which 5 were contested would tell you otherwise. He is in his second season of football and there is a lot of room for improvement. I wouldn't be quite as panicked on Hogan yet.

Buddy would have to be a rare exception in a long list of selfish goal kickers who never won a flag. 

Barry Hall was lucky to play in a winning GF. He should have been suspended if the cowardly tribunal and AFL did not corrupt the rules to save his bacon. 

Flower was never a forward who hijacked the forward line. A reason for the Saint's mediocrity was that they allowed Lockett to run his own show.

Ablett was great that day but it was an unusual GF. A high scoring feast with no pressure and his 8 goals were never enough. You should check out Ablett's other finals performances. Woeful at best.

History suggests a player like Hogan may be more of an impediment than of benefit in a fragile club like ours. Unless he has a life changing experience and sheds his arrogance and selfishness to become a model team player.

Edited August 23, 2016 by america de cali

[Grapeviney 8,907]

18 minutes ago, america de cali said:

You should check out Ablett's other finals performances. Woeful at best. 

What, like the time he kicked 27 goals in the 1989 finals series, including 7.7 against us? 

Either your knowledge of footy history is poor, or you're tolling. Having read your posts on Jesse over several months, I suspect it's the latter.  

[John Crow Batty 8,291]

9 minutes ago, Grapeviney said:

What, like the time he kicked 27 goals in the 1989 finals series, including 7.7 against us?

Either your knowledge of footy history is poor, or you're tolling. Having read your posts on Jesse over several months, I suspect it's the latter.  

Check out Ablett's other finals series. Mostly disappointing. For such a great player no chocolates.

Edited August 23, 2016 by america de cali

[loges 6,215]

Does he sook up at himself or at his teammates? Big difference

[Ted Lasso 17,039]

Would love to see Jesse get out with Jack Watts and just get some really hard work done on his goal kicking action, i reckon if Jesse could convert, his confidence would soar and he'd be the equal of Tom Lynch very quickly.

[Grapeviney 8,907]

31 minutes ago, america de cali said:

Check out Ablett's other finals series. Mostly disappointing. For such a great player no chocolates.

You're the one who needs to 'check out' his other finals series. He finished his career with 64 goals in 16 finals - that's an average of 4 goals a game. 

And you reckon that's 'woeful at best'?

[John Crow Batty 8,291]

32 minutes ago, Grapeviney said:

You're the one who needs to 'check out' his other finals series. He finished his career with 64 goals in 16 finals - that's an average of 4 goals a game. 

And you reckon that's 'woeful at best'?

Check out his  92, 94 and 95 losing GF efforts. Grand total of 33 possessions, 4 goals, 6 behinds and 2 tackles. For a player of his caliber that is woeful in anyone's language.

When Geelong were eliminated in the 91 and 96 finals his efforts were even worse.

Edited August 23, 2016 by america de cali

[GawnWithTheWind 604]

If its true that he is wavering, I wouldn't blame him at all...

If its true, and he does have a family member who is sick, I would struggle to say that I'm 100% not coming home any time soon. I'd probably change my mind on a weekly basis until I have absolute confidence I'm making the right decision for my family, not my football club.

Hes not $cully leaving for cash, or J.Frawley leaving for a cheap flag... he'd be jesse leaving for his family. 

[nutbean 8,837]

1 hour ago, america de cali said:

History suggests a player like Hogan may be more of an impediment than of benefit in a fragile club like ours. Unless he has a life changing experience and sheds his arrogance and selfishness to become a model team player.

I am not suggesting that Jesse Hogan doesn't has visible bouts of angst - usually at himself.

I have not seen a selfish side to his football yet ( handballing off to ANB in the goal square on Sunday ?) and whilst he has a touch of arrogance - I have seen that directed towards opposition rather than team mates.

To suggest he may become more of an impediment than a benefit to our club ? - and I don't see the necessity for a "life changing experience" - I think that is hyperbole -  I just don't see it. 

 

Edited August 23, 2016 by nutbean

[What 18,810]

1 hour ago, Grapeviney said:

You're the one who needs to 'check out' his other finals series. He finished his career with 64 goals in 16 finals - that's an average of 4 goals a game. 

And you reckon that's 'woeful at best'?

His 1989 finals series was unbelievable...  but he did struggle in finals later in his career.  

He played in three more Grand Finals after 1989, for a grand total of 4 goals.

 

 

Edit - American De Cali already pointed it out....

Edited August 23, 2016 by Petraccattack

[John Demonic 4,867]

7 hours ago, ProDee said:

No worries.  You're not the first to misread the tone of a conversation.  Easy to do.

How someone reads the tone of a conversation is totally subjective and can be interpreted many ways. You could have misread it too ProDee, you aren't the one that has the only correct reading and neither does a consensus.

There was plenty in her verbal and physical expressions that suggests that Hogan is not 100% committed, irrespective of what she said. And if you're not 100%, then there is always grounds to be concerned. I think that is what came across with what she said. She didn't directly say she thought he would go, but there is enough ambiguity and concern with the 'umming and ahhing' to think that Caro thinks he could go. There were multiple ways to interpret it.

Edited August 23, 2016 by johndemons

[ArtificialWisdom 3,916]

4 hours ago, reynolds46 said:

maybe he needs another chat with Wayne Carey:

http://www.heraldsun.com.au/sport/afl/jesse-hogan-says-his-selfish-body-language-is-a-thing-of-the-past-after-advice-from-wayne-carey/news-story/05cbf93b33d99498568a84a12f13cc40

If I was at the club I would be giving Carey a call and offering him a part time role at the club. Working with all the forwards. Maybe once a week or even just once a fortnight, work on everything from body language to technique and maybe even forwardline chemistry.

[Gator 16,918]

10 minutes ago, johndemons said:

How someone reads the tone of a conversation is totally subjective and can be interpreted many ways. You could have misread it too ProDee, you aren't the one that has the only correct reading and neither does a consensus.

There was plenty in her verbal and physical expressions that suggests that Hogan is not 100% committed, irrespective of what she said. And if you're not 100%, then there is always grounds to be concerned. I think that is what came across with what she said. She didn't directly say she thought he would go, but there is enough ambiguity and concern with the 'umming and ahhing' to think that Caro thinks he could go. There were multiple ways to interpret it.

No.

The person I quoted said,  "Caroline Wilson on Footy Classified tonight said she is starting to think Hogan is more likely to go than stay now".

This is patently wrong and not what she said at all.  Verbatim she said, "I actually couldn't call it to be honest, I couldn't call it".

If you want to guess about ums and ahs and inferences be my guest.

Btw, I couldn't care less if she thinks he'll stay or go.  Her opinion is inconsequential to me.  I was more interested in her comments being factually reported.