Defence Leaking Like A Sieve

[rolling fog 1,207]

TMac is about to be interview on that fount of quality football journalism - the Triple M Rush Hour

[chook fowler 19,459]

It's hard to fathom with all the tacticians we have including that new game analyst Jennings that no one is made to man up Riewoldt. No one was anywhere near him all day and so he cut us to pieces.

Edited May 2, 2016 by chook fowler

[Cheesy D. Pun 1,765]

1 hour ago, rpfc said:

The ease of the goals we are giving up tell me we are struggling with the press we are trying to implement.

And that struggle doesn't mean that the direct opponent of Riewoldt or Membrey screwed up. It means that the team function of running a press is failing consistently. They would have vision of who that is, so it might be telling at selection - if you can't play AFL structures, you won't be there long...

This.

 

23 hours ago, Wiseblood said:

It's all part of the transition.  Would you rather us go back to 2014/2015 where the defence is sound but the offence is distinctly average?

Getting the balance right between both will take a little time, and as we ramp up the offence it will take us a while to make sure we integrate that well with our defence as well.

Some on here are far too short sighted for their own good.

And this.

[Dappa Dan 2,188]

7 hours ago, stevethemanjordan said:

No, that's the trouble. I wouldn't say Melksham is known for his 'smarts'.

What he'd definitely offer is really hard two-way running as a back-flanker who can rotate through the middle but again his skills aren't much chop.

Really, I just see a mess in the way that our defence is playing with this zoning. It seems that the 'roles' of our players have now been confused as we have so many players covering the arses of of each other when the ball comes inside defensive 50. Dunn, McDonald and Jetta all play their best football when assigned a single opponent. All of them. I think adding both Hunt and Wagner is unsettling. They're both really inexperienced. 

It's just really messy.

 

That's a good post.

Are you worried? Or more just hoping they tighten up?

I remember thinking on the weekend that we saw things that were drastically out of character from everyone except Jesse. And that goes for Roosy too. how he didn't drop  player back to stem the bleeding I'll never know. I saw 6 goals that could have been avoided with a decision or two from the box. To me, that gives me hope. 

[Fat Tony 5,231]

The thing that has really annoyed me over the last two weeks is the number of shots on goal we have conceded when the opposition has taken the ball coast-to-coast around the boundary line. Our forward line has applied enough heat on the ball and midfield just hasn’t pushed back hard enough.

I also think the zone defence we are playing requires a taller, more athletic back six than we are playing. (The way we have set up requires defenders to play 10 meters in front and then run back with the flight and leap to effect a spoil.) As much as we like the idea of having Salem and Dunn in the backline due to their kicking skills, I am not sure they have the aerial ability required. IMO we need to bring Garland back into the side and look at playing Vince off half back more permanently.

Edit: spelling

Edited May 3, 2016 by Fat Tony

[hemingway 7,627]

21 hours ago, chook fowler said:

It's hard to fathom with all the tacticians we have including that new game analyst Jennings that no one is made to man up Riewoldt. No one was anywhere near him all day and so he cut us to pieces.

Simply staggering. 

[old dee 23,792]

2 hours ago, hemingway said:

Simply staggering. 

Try as I might Ernest I could not come up with words to give a greater emphasis.

Hardly surprising I guess that I could not out do you Ernest.

[Adam The God 30,261]

On 02/05/2016 at 10:31 PM, Dappa Dan said:

That's a good post.

Are you worried? Or more just hoping they tighten up?

I remember thinking on the weekend that we saw things that were drastically out of character from everyone except Jesse. And that goes for Roosy too. how he didn't drop  player back to stem the bleeding I'll never know. I saw 6 goals that could have been avoided with a decision or two from the box. To me, that gives me hope. 

I'm convinced they want the players to work through the game, sticking to the original system rain, hail or shine. That spells frustration for supporters in the short term, but hopefully pays dividends in the end. The longer our players play this system, the sooner we'll know if they can. And as Steve and rpfc suggest, if some of these guys can't play the system that our coaches believe will win a flag in the long run, they will be replaced with someone who can.

It'll be fascinating to see who we target outside of KPPs and mids this off season. I think Jetta is a lock. Wagner and Hunt look the goods. Lumumba is important when his team mates are working for him. My concern is outside of those guys we have very little defensive depth. I believe Salem will ultimately move up the ground, so who else will be targeted to put pressure on these guys?

I keep returning to the Hawthorn blue print. They never needed the tallest defenders, they played distinctly mid sized defenders across the board, but their system made each of them look impregnable.

In short, we have to give this system some time. Some players will get it and others won't, and will therefore be replaced.

Edited May 4, 2016 by AdamFarr

[Brownie 5,981]

On 01/05/2016 at 6:38 PM, DeeZee said:

I don't really get what we are trying to do with our defence .

It looks like some sort of zone but when Jetta ends up matching one on one with Riewoldt something's not quite right.

You could see the ball coming in from their long kick outs to the wing and the Stkilda forwards starting to run towards goal but none of our guys went with them.

Really hope they can sort this out as it was very painful to watch.

I could see it happening in the first quarter but nothing changed all day.

sometimes I wonder about the coaches role.

the only change I saw was Pederson and Dunn swapping roles,but still no one really ran with Riewoldt or stood with Membrey.

I agree. hard running is the foundation both forward and back.

Roos said that we needed hard running players early in the year. there were a lot who didn't run hard to cover their opponents on Saturday.

 

[Dappa Dan 2,188]

4 hours ago, AdamFarr said:

I'm convinced they want the players to work through the game, sticking to the original system rain, hail or shine. That spells frustration for supporters in the short term, but hopefully pays dividends in the end. The longer our players play this system, the sooner we'll know if they can.

It'll be fascinating to see who we target outside of KPPs and mids this off season. I think Jetta is a lock. Wagner and Hunt look the goods. Lumumba is important when his team mates are working for him. My concern is outside of those guys we have very little defensive depth. I believe Salem will ultimately move up the ground, so who else will be targeted to put pressure on these guys?

I keep returning to the Hawthorn blue print. They never needed the tallest defenders, they played distinctly mid sized defenders across the board, but their system made each of them look impregnable.

In short, we have to give this system some time. Some players will get it and others won't, and will therefore be replaced.

- Thought that many times. When they opened us up, traditionally, we make a change. Not this time though.

- Hadn't thought of running defenders as a weakness, but you may be right. I see Salem and Watts as part timers there (though no doubt Watts forward is our current need). Stretch I think will end up there, along with Milkshakes, Bugg and OZ. I'm not as down on running defenders as you. But then again, each of the ones I like do have weaknesses. And apart from Stretch and Milkshakes (who is a poor kick) none have genuine pace off a flank. I'd like to see some players develop it in their game. If Trengove wasn't so slow he'd be perfect. Good aerialist. Smart.

1 hour ago, Brownie said:

I agree. hard running is the foundation both forward and back.

Roos said that we needed hard running players early in the year. there were a lot who didn't run hard to cover their opponents on Saturday.

 

Yeah. It's the pace, and the skill we lack. The skill is improving with names like Salem and Watts in there. Petracca is a pretty kick (haven't seen enough to know for sure). Viney is an underrated kick. He's like Judd... no great gift, but smart enough to know where to put it.

[Clintosaurus 7,849]

I don't think an 18 man press is necessary - 15 should be enough, with the other 3 there to man up any of the opposition that get through the other 15. We can go the full 18 if everyone keeps to their place in the press, but we seem to have a few that either can't work it out or are just too lazy or not disciplined enough to do it all the time. Fitness should not be an issue.

[Adam The God 30,261]

17 minutes ago, Clintosaurus said:

I don't think an 18 man press is necessary - 15 should be enough, with the other 3 there to man up any of the opposition that get through the other 15. We can go the full 18 if everyone keeps to their place in the press, but we seem to have a few that either can't work it out or are just too lazy or not disciplined enough to do it all the time. Fitness should not be an issue.

The press is about the chain of numbers though. If the opposition works hard and uses the ball efficiently, they will eventually get it to a spare player in space. As another poster said, the press is all or nothing. 

Edited May 4, 2016 by AdamFarr

[What 18,810]

Leaked like a sieve on the weekend, sure

We kept Tigers, GWS and Pies all under 90 points

[TeamPlayedFine39 8,508]

Defense is never about the 'defenders', it's about how well the team can defend.  The people delivering the ball into our defensive 50 had no pressure on them, they were moving into space and had space in front of them to put the ball where the opposition forwards wanted it.  The games where our defense has looked sound were the games where our midfield worked harder to defend.  You could put Bruce Doull down there in our defensive arc and he'd be made to look foolish by our collective lack of pressure.

[KingDingAling 3,758]

If our defence is leaking like a sieve, the answer might be in our turnovers (when attacking). I think the solution would be to attack more effectively, not to turn the ball over as much, and as a result don't get caught napping on the rebound (and not provide as many opportunities to rebound). I don't like the idea of putting too much of an emphasis on defence - unless it is used as an attack. The bulldogs had this mastered early in the year (before injuries stuck). There were a few things that stood out. Run and carry, the ability to execute, and knowing when to effectively attack out of defence.

[Bluey's Dad 3,419]

17 minutes ago, Petraccattack said:

Leaked like a sieve on the weekend, sure

We kept Tigers, GWS and Pies all under 90 points

A lot of that GWS was their own fault though, both due to them being undermanned and kicking inefficiently.

[junk 342]

THe major problem is we don't have the cattle to produce a worth while defence.O.Mac eventually will make it. White showed promise last year. Trengove could possibly fill a defencive roll. Lumumba is past it. Dunn has lost the plot and Frost needs time,probably needs a rest. Grimes ,Minchie,Newton,Dawes and Terlich will probably be gone at the end of the year  which means there is no point playing them in the seniors unless there is an injury. Matt Jones has gone missing,nothing to do with his form.

[ArtificialWisdom 4,045]

29 minutes ago, KingDingAling said:

If our defence is leaking like a sieve, the answer might be in our turnovers (when attacking). I think the solution would be to attack more effectively, not to turn the ball over as much, and as a result don't get caught napping on the rebound (and not provide as many opportunities to rebound). I don't like the idea of putting too much of an emphasis on defence - unless it is used as an attack. The bulldogs had this mastered early in the year (before injuries stuck). There were a few things that stood out. Run and carry, the ability to execute, and knowing when to effectively attack out of defence.

This is a very good point, we can talk all we want about defence and we seem to be improving with the ball in hand but we are still the second worst in the comp when it comes to scores given up off turnovers. Good luck defending when you turn it over with everyone runnning the other way.

[KingDingAling 3,758]

17 hours ago, ArtificialWisdom said:

This is a very good point, we can talk all we want about defence and we seem to be improving with the ball in hand but we are still the second worst in the comp when it comes to scores given up off turnovers. Good luck defending when you turn it over with everyone runnning the other way.

Spot on.