Jason Taylor - Is he up to it?

[Bang Bang Bang 5,801]

Why is that, because it was impossible to do worse?

Almost! His only saving grace was getting Howe (pick 30), TMac (pick 53) and Gawn (pick 34).

He was the Mark Neeld of recruiting. Scary to think we had both working at the same time, along with Schwab as CEO and Harrington as List Manager. 4/5 of the most important people at a football club totally incompetent.

[Mach5 4,767]

TMav was recruited to be a Leigh Brown 2nd ruck/utility type - hardly a bullseye

[Nasher 33,607]

TMav was recruited to be a Leigh Brown 2nd ruck/utility type - hardly a bullseye

Not a bullseye, but at least he hit the target with that one. It goes without saying that the fresh air shots with the early picks hurt.

[Adam The God 30,089]

Yes, it's a lovely read...

Oddly enough it is used by both sides in the argument for draft assistance over the last couple of years.

I say oddly because my Hawforn supporting mate is still adamant that we shouldn't have got any help 'because we did this to yourselves' with our terrible drafting.

When does a team not 'do it to themselves' when they become horrible?

He can be such a [censored] this bloke, we weren't even talking about PP or anything, I was just musing that it is good to see perennial losers like us, Saints, and Dogs finally rising with the expansion clubs...

Sigh.

Drop him. No need for mugs.

[Slartibartfast 17,096]

* BUMP *

While Jason Taylor has been in charge

Heritier Lumumba *

I have bolded the real success stories in my opinion, but I am sure there are arguements for 2 or 3 more

I reckon you can safely unbold this bloke. Very very disappointing so far. I hope he's doing lots off the field because he's doing little if anything on it. The only reason he's flying under DL radar is because he never gets it. With a full list he would be very lucky to be best 22. For a high profile mature age recruit he is poor. And to make it worse he doesn't go when it's his turn.

[mo64 5,851]

No we don't. That's speculation and innuendo at best. Much more likely was that all the recruiting team (including Todd Viney) felt Toumpas was a "can't miss" prospect and would compliment Viney Jnr at pick 26 better than Wines. Obviously it hasn't worked out but Neeld shouldn't get the blame for everything.

It was always going to be easy for Jason Taylor to look better than Barry Prendargast, but I think he has done a really good job so far. Pretty much all his picks have been nailed or at least showed early promise.

2007 - Morton, Grimes, Maric

2008 - Watts, Blease, Strauss

2009 - Scully, Trengove, Gysberts and Tapscott

2010 - Lucas Cook

2011 - Taggert, Tynan and Sellar

2012 - Toumpas and Viney*

That period was all pre-Taylor, (we know what happened in 2012 with the Toumpas/Neeld fiasco).

They're all top 25 picks except Viney who was pick 26 and except that 2011 period but I wanted to show that because it was a howler considering all of those players are gone.

The blokes highlighted are still on our list. Watts has been through hell and is only now beginning to show consistency in his form. Trengove, Grimes and Toumpas remain question marks for the next year. Which leaves Viney as our only pick during the pre-Taylor era as an absolute tick. He has improved every year he has played.

8 complete and utter fails who are no longer on our list.

3 who are battling for their AFL careers in Grimes, Trengove and Toumpas.

1 special case who will make it but it's been a long time coming in Watts.

Compare that period with what Taylor and co have been able to achieve.

The strike rate comparison is ridiculous and the rookies he's picked alone in Vanders, Harmes, White and king infuriate me considering we couldn't get a top 25 pick right for almost 5 years.

One of the many reasons we have been battling away for so long.

Thanks again BP.

(mostly anyway).

Shouldn't Hogan be included on that list?

Whilst I accept that BP did a shite job, there's no doubt that senior coaches have an influence. Roos stated after his 1st draft at Melbourne that he has a simple mantra on what makes an AFL player and that is, "The ability to win your own ball and use it", or along those lines. And it's easy to see that Taylor has adhered to his philosophy, and identified players that fit that criteria.

And it's fair to say that some of the players drafted when Bailey was coach failed to meet that criteria.

Richmond have nailed their 1st round picks in recent years, with Deledio, Cotchin, Rance, Reiwoldt, Martin and Ellis (Tambling the exception), but have got little out of their latter picks.

[binman 42,500]

Jason Taylor part, albeit a key one of a recruiting team that includes Kelly O'Donnell and Todd Viney. In my humble in the last two years the recruiting team has done the best recruiting job in the time i have supported the dees (i started regularly attending games in about 78). My justification for this claim?

1. Bernie Vince has been gold and the best recruit to the dees from another VFL/AFL club since Steven Icke (a player i hold in the highest regard).
2. Vanders has been a revelation. As a mature age player only Barlow comes to mind in recent times who has so immediately adapted to AFL standard football, something that is all the more remarkable for the fact that he was playing in Canberra and not one of the recognised second tier comps (eg VFL, SANFL). Also he perfectly fits the bill for the type of big bodied ball winner Roos's game plan requires (as well as providing some protection for younger mids)
3. We could not have hoped for any more from Gartlett - he has been brilliant. We have not had a really high quality small forward since the Wiz left and it was a huge hole the last few years. 30 odd goals, forward pressure, excitement and seems to be loving his footy. His team mates also seem to love him
4. Whilst it was a no brainer to pick Brayshaw they didn't go all creative and picked him. He is a gun. Total gun. One of the most natural football players i have seen. Full stop. The jury is out on Petracca obviously but all pointers seem to be that we have another gun there.
5. Salem and Tyson: 10 year players and keys to our progress
6. Lumumba? The jury is out. I'm not sure i agree with Baghad Bob, though i see his point. I would argue that he does bring speed and a willingness to run of the half back flank. Has played every game thus far this year and seem a real pro.
7. Frost: jury out but was selected above others and early on and shows a bit
8. Newton, Neal-Bullen and Stretch: have all played senior footy and showed a bit and i love that NB and Stretch are best mates
9. I also love that they got T-Mac junior to the club
10. I reckon White and King could be be bolters and end up being important players

Impressive roll call i reckon.

[Slartibartfast 17,096]

1. Lumumba? The jury is out. I'm not sure i agree with Baghad Bob, though i see his point. I would argue that he does bring speed and a willingness to run of the half back flank. Has played every game thus far this year and seem a real pro.

He's actually missed one but that is neither here nor there. He does bring a willingness to take the game on but to what effect? He had a golden opportunity to pass to Hogan in the third but kicked to Garlett who was two against one. He was under no pressure and he regularly makes poor decisions. He failed to go when Daniher kicked the last goal against us. He was largely on Sidebottom in the first when he racked up 14. At the risk of the venom of Demonland coming down upon me I'd have Grimes ahead of Lumumba every day. But I accept that's moot and I'd have Salem very comfortably ahead of both. Jetta, Dunn, Garland, McDonald, Salem, Howe and Cross are all better down back than Lumumba with Grimes shading him IMO. And Lumumba just doesn't get involved enough from a wing to justify his position.

I think Lumumba is an athlete and not a footballer. I haven't checked but how many DL or Coaches Award votes has he got this year? I don't reckon it would be many. For a bloke that finished 4th in Collingwood's b&f last year he's been particularly disappointing.

I'm not criticizing the person, he may add a lot around the club and he may set a terrific example to the younger players. But on field he's added very little.

[The Third Eye 258]

He's actually missed one but that is neither here nor there. He does bring a willingness to take the game on but to what effect? He had a golden opportunity to pass to Hogan in the third but kicked to Garlett who was two against one. He was under no pressure and he regularly makes poor decisions. He failed to go when Daniher kicked the last goal against us. He was largely on Sidebottom in the first when he racked up 14. At the risk of the venom of Demonland coming down upon me I'd have Grimes ahead of Lumumba every day. But I accept that's moot and I'd have Salem very comfortably ahead of both. Jetta, Dunn, Garland, McDonald, Salem, Howe and Cross are all better down back than Lumumba with Grimes shading him IMO. And Lumumba just doesn't get involved enough from a wing to justify his position.

I think Lumumba is an athlete and not a footballer. I haven't checked but how many DL or Coaches Award votes has he got this year? I don't reckon it would be many. For a bloke that finished 4th in Collingwood's b&f last year he's been particularly disappointing.

I'm not criticizing the person, he may add a lot around the club and he may set a terrific example to the younger players. But on field he's added very little.

Lumumba's has been a very consistent contributor on the field without being outstanding. He certainly hasn't been able to reproduce that 30 possession best on ground game in the NAB Challenge against Essendon and most likely won't be a top 5 b & f place getter as he has been recently at Collingwood which is why a lot of us including myself would be disappointed with his output to date.

However, on the whole I think his recruiting has been satisfactory and he has plenty of time to produce some big games in his time at Melbourne.

Also looking at the three way "trade" that took place at the time he was recruited, he's been about the equivalent of Travis Varcoe who went to Collingwood and need I say anything about the bloke Geelong picked up?

[Slartibartfast 17,096]

Well if you need any more convincing that he's had a terrible year here is the DL voting after 18 rounds.

A nice spread of votes this week sees Bernie Vince consolidate his lead.

130. Bernie Vince

114. Nathan Jones

103. Tom McDonald

96. Jesse Hogan

78. Max Gawn Jack Viney

63. Daniel Cross

53. Angus Brayshaw

52. Jeffrey Garlett

44. Colin Garland Aaron vandenBerg

30. Christian Salem

28. Cam Pedersen

25. Jack Watts

22. Neville Jetta

21. Jack Grimes

19. Jimmy Toumpas

17. Lynden Dunn

13. Jeremy Howe

6. Dom Tyson

4. Mark Jamar Heritier Lubumba Viv Michie Ben Newton

3. Chris Dawes

2. Jake Spencer

1. Alex Neal-Bullen

Given that he's played all but one game he really should have done much better. He's miles behind Jack Grimes who has played much less football and is so unfairly treated on this site. The Collingwood supporters I know are thrilled with the swap with Varcoe.

Let's face it, Lumumba has offer little if anything to the side and frankly I'm surprised he's kept his spot. Come on Heritier, lift!

[Qwerty30 196]

Given that he's played all but one game he really should have done better. He's miles behind Jack Grimes who has played much less football and is so unfairly treated on this site. The Collingwood supporters I know are thrilled with the swap with Varcoe.

Let's face it, Lumumba has offer little if anything to the side and frankly I'm surprised he's kept his spot. Come on Heritier, lift!

Spot on.

[mo64 5,851]

Well if you need any more convincing that he's had a terrible year here is the DL voting after 18 rounds.

A nice spread of votes this week sees Bernie Vince consolidate his lead.

130. Bernie Vince

114. Nathan Jones

103. Tom McDonald

96. Jesse Hogan

78. Max Gawn Jack Viney

63. Daniel Cross

53. Angus Brayshaw

52. Jeffrey Garlett

44. Colin Garland Aaron vandenBerg

30. Christian Salem

28. Cam Pedersen

25. Jack Watts

22. Neville Jetta

21. Jack Grimes

19. Jimmy Toumpas

17. Lynden Dunn

13. Jeremy Howe

6. Dom Tyson

4. Mark Jamar Heritier Lubumba Viv Michie Ben Newton

3. Chris Dawes

2. Jake Spencer

1. Alex Neal-Bullen

Given that he's played all but one game he really should have done much better. He's miles behind Jack Grimes who has played much less football and is so unfairly treated on this site. The Collingwood supporters I know are thrilled with the swap with Varcoe.

Let's face it, Lumumba has offer little if anything to the side and frankly I'm surprised he's kept his spot. Come on Heritier, lift!

I'd be more interested in the clubs B&F voting than Demonland.

And you say that Jack Grimes has been unfairly treated on this site. Give me a spell. He wasn't in our best 22 at the start of the year, and has been dropped on more than 1 occasion. So it's fair to say that our coaching staff rate Lumumba more highly than Grimes, as do I.

And furthermore, I don't see that relevance of mentioning Varcoe given that we gave up Clark, who continues to struggle to get on the park. Geelong are the club that should be dirty with the trade.

[Mach5 4,767]

DL voting as a KPI?

Oh dear...

[Slartibartfast 17,096]

DL voting as a KPI?

Oh dear...

[Whispering_Jack 29,744]

With Heitier, I suppose it really depends on what your expectations are of someone playing in his position.

Do you want a spectacular high possession game week in, week out that gets the votes from the average punter or one where he plays his role in defence keeping opponents in check and also adding the dimension of a line breaker who occasionally does something really eye-catching?

After the pre-season matches, I was thinking of the former, expecting him to almost be a high possession winning midfielder but we are not a premiership side yet and in any event, that wasn't his function in the side. Sure, I would like to see him do more but it wouldn't surprise if you asked the coaches whether Lumumba had achieved what they wanted from him so far, the answer would probably be in the affirmative.

[Slartibartfast 17,096]

With Heitier, I suppose it really depends on what your expectations are of someone playing in his position.

Do you want a spectacular high possession game week in, week out that gets the votes from the average punter or one where he plays his role in defence keeping opponents in check and also adding the dimension of a line breaker who occasionally does something really eye-catching?

After the pre-season matches, I was thinking of the former, expecting him to almost be a high possession winning midfielder but we are not a premiership side yet and in any event, that wasn't his function in the side. Sure, I would like to see him do more but it wouldn't surprise if you asked the coaches whether Lumumba had achieved what they wanted from him so far, the answer would probably be in the affirmative.

My expectation is that he will play his role and impact games. I don't think he has. I think he should be a leader on the field showing poise, courage and good decision making. I don't think he has.

If Lumumba has achieved his coaches expectation then I'd be remarkably surprised and disappointed. His performance yesterday, whilst being his worst of the season, was representative of his output for much of the season. He is 28 years old, he's played 216 games, a premiership player and in his last 5 games he's had more than 12 possessions once. Roos has said that all players must contribute offensively as well as defensively. Bail and McKenzie have a line through their names because they don't do enough offensively but over the last 5 weeks Lumumba has contributed less.

He may be injured, he might be sick, he may be adjusting to Roos game plan or it might be something else. I like H, I think he's a thoughtful and intelligent bloke but at the moment we are playing one short and it must be heartbreaking for players like Brayshaw, Viney and Hogan to see a senior player at the peak of his career playing such awful footy. I suspect he's in the team because he is at least physically mature and we have a lot of kids that are finding it a long season.

I really hope he finds his mojo because we need him and at the moment he is just ineffective.

[Lil_red_fire_engine 11,090]

With Heitier, I suppose it really depends on what your expectations are of someone playing in his position.

Do you want a spectacular high possession game week in, week out that gets the votes from the average punter or one where he plays his role in defence keeping opponents in check and also adding the dimension of a line breaker who occasionally does something really eye-catching?

After the pre-season matches, I was thinking of the former, expecting him to almost be a high possession winning midfielder but we are not a premiership side yet and in any event, that wasn't his function in the side. Sure, I would like to see him do more but it wouldn't surprise if you asked the coaches whether Lumumba had achieved what they wanted from him so far, the answer would probably be in the affirmative.

I dont think he has done either very well this year. I thought he started the season ok but has been a disappointment and will be overtaken next year unless something changes.

[Yossarian 1,820]

Yes, it's a lovely read...

Oddly enough it is used by both sides in the argument for draft assistance over the last couple of years.

I say oddly because my Hawforn supporting mate is still adamant that we shouldn't have got any help 'because we did this to yourselves' with our terrible drafting.

When does a team not 'do it to themselves' when they become horrible?

He can be such a [censored] this bloke, we weren't even talking about PP or anything, I was just musing that it is good to see perennial losers like us, Saints, and Dogs finally rising with the expansion clubs...

Sigh.

Someone telling me they're a Hawthorn fan gets about the same reaction as someone who's into rugby league from me these days.

[Mach5 4,767]

Someone telling me they're a Hawthorn fan gets about the same reaction as someone who's into rugby league from me these days.

Probably not a great metric for determining a person's "football intelligence".

[Glenn Molloy 494]

Someone telling me they're a Hawthorn fan gets about the same reaction as someone who's into rugby league from me these days.

Exactly. When did this Hawthorn supporting mate start following them? 2008 like the rest of them?!

Geez they annoy me. Particularly when they carry on about loyalty. Theirs hasn't even been tested yet, haven't missed a Prelim for about 6 years. Not hard being loyal in that situation!!

[monoccular 17,409]

Cant wait to see what gem he finds us next.. what would be awesome would be another X factor type forward like Jurrah/Woneamirri

especially if they stay more than a year or so.

[pineapple dee 2,892]

Someone telling me they're a Hawthorn fan gets about the same reaction as someone who's into rugby league from me these days.

I think it's fair to say that the average Hawthorn fan is a smug arzzhole. I am looking forward to being a smug arzzzhole one day.

[Redleg 40,782]

I reckon you can safely unbold this bloke. Very very disappointing so far. I hope he's doing lots off the field because he's doing little if anything on it. The only reason he's flying under DL radar is because he never gets it. With a full list he would be very lucky to be best 22. For a high profile mature age recruit he is poor. And to make it worse he doesn't go when it's his turn.

Do you think the Pies are smarter than we are?

[Redleg 40,782]

I dont think he has done either very well this year. I thought he started the season ok but has been a disappointment and will be overtaken next year unless something changes.

He was fantastic in the practice matches and went downhill immediately the season started.

The one thing he seems to do ok is get to the spoil, but is not getting the ball enough to be effective.

You would have to say Cross has been head and shoulders above him as a mature get.

If his current form continues into next season, I don't believe he would make our 22 if we have a reasonable run with injuries.

[Little Richard 6,261]

He was fantastic in the practice matches and went downhill immediately the season started.

The one thing he seems to do ok is get to the spoil, but is not getting the ball enough to be effective.

You would have to say Cross has been head and shoulders above him as a mature get.

If his current form continues into next season, I don't believe he would make our 22 if we have a reasonable run with injuries.

I agree with this. Hopefully it is just a case of adjusting to different team mates and a different style of play, and he'll improve and adapt next season.

However, it is possible that Roosy's game plan just doesn't suit him. He thrived on finding space to run and bomb the ball when he was at the Pies and the way we have been playing hasn't allowed that, IMO.