Some serious questions asked about Paul Roos ...

[Trisul 664]

• Dom Barry (ret)

Sam Blease (del)

Shannon Byrnes (ret)

Mitch Clark (trd)

Mitch Clisby (del)

Michael Evans (del)

James Frawley (FA)

Alex Georgiou (del)

Daniel Nicholson (del)

James Strauss (del)

Luke Tapscott (del)

Tom Couch (del)

Aaron Davey (ret)

Troy Davis (del)

Tom Gillies (del)

Neville Jetta (del)

Joel Macdonald (ret)

James Magner (del)

David Rodan (ret)

James Sellar (del)

Nathan Stark (del)

Colin Sylvia (FA)

Rory Taggert (del)

Josh Tynan (del)

[chook fowler 19,459]

No need to worry, it seems Mick Malthouse still wants to coach.

[jumbo returns 6,741]

No need to worry, it seems Mick Malthouse still wants to coach.

Wow

Wee.

[praha 11,240]

And when we inevitably lose, we turn down the lights and sway to Cave, smoke opium and weep prayers to the football Gods to give us a sign. Any sign...

Efa

[timD 994]

Well, see this was the same problem with Grimes and Trengove being made captain. I genuinely stand by the fact that Grimes and Trengove were our only legitimate options for captaincy when Neeld arrived. When Grimes and Trengove were made captain, Jones was an ordinary player. In Grimes and Trengove's first season as captains, Jones had his best year. Its revisionism to say otherwise. Jonesy has improved every year since.

And Jones does show moments of good leadership. In our wins this year, he has been an integral part of them (think the goal at the start of the 4th against Geelong), but in an ideal world, he's not your captain. He's a solid midfield contributor and someone like a Selwood (who can really impact the game and change the flow of things) is your captain. We don't have anyone that has the talent and experience to be that player right now. With good coaching and development, Hogan and someone like Brayshaw could well become that sort of leader, but as you say, mate, we're stuck at the moment.

I'd actually argue he's trying to play to the team's strengths. That is keep it slow and congested, because we're so slow in the foot speed department. Your last line is spot on though. If we are intent on playing the possession game, we should be targeting blokes with high skill levels.

Adam, I've seen Jones ignore team rules, run around getting cheap kicks and regularly butcher his possessions. He doesn't do a lot of off-the-ball team stuff. Do you ever, ever see him instructing players, consoling players, directing? I see it very rarely. He is good without being very good. He struggles to lead by example and he struggles to lead through voice/communication. But he is the best we've got I think. He shows moments of good leadership. Moments. But what do we do?

Song, he is not "the problem", but rather an example of one element of the problem - a dearth of genuinely talented players with leadership skills. We actually have none.

[Pennant St Dee 13,173]

Most players we bring it happens. Dawes was decent when he first came in. Terlich wasn't so bad. VandenBerg, Tyson, Lamumba, Clark, Trengove, JKH, Grimes , the list goes on. All our players go to [censored] in the red and blue. hogan Brayshaw and Garlett look like our best players...

Glass half empty

Dawes could never mark and got consistently worse after he injured his hand in 2011 at the Pies

Terlich was never skillful and whilst he had dash ran into trouble a lot

Vandenberg is in his first season looking tired nothing else

Tyson had an injury interupted pre-season and has not been right all year, it is fairly obvious

Lamumba is no different at Melbourne to how he was at Collingwood

Clark - FMD the lisfranc injury may have had a fair bit to do with how he ended up

Trengove - as above

JKH - beyond the NAB cup game against Richmond and the odd cameo has shown nothing but glimpses, needs to work harder

Grimes - oh yes those years of wonderful disposal pin point accuracy how I crave for those moments back. Grimes had a shocker on the weekend but has performed well this season so lets not rewrite history

Edited July 29, 2015 by Pennant St Dee

[Ted Lasso 19,518]

Tim d if you are suggesting nathan jones "doesnt do alot of off field team stuff" you are dead wrong, he has spent hours apon hours working with our young guys outside hours to help them, he's working as hard off field as on. I just think he's a lead by example type not a luke hodge or mathew pavlich inspire and direct team mates on field type.

Still clearly the best we have though, for now.

[inanunda 351]

If you heard Roos on AFL360 this wee there was a lot of 'we' in his talking which is something I am hearing more and more. There was no reference to the players mental scarring but the CLUB as a whole: supporters, admin, staff, etc. He knows that EVERYONE has gone through a rough stint and you cannot change that overnight. Too much false hope has been given over the last ten years but I have seen significant change off-field which will (and it will) transfer on field.

[timD 994]

Tim d if you are suggesting nathan jones "doesnt do alot of off field team stuff" you are dead wrong, he has spent hours apon hours working with our young guys outside hours to help them, he's working as hard off field as on. I just think he's a lead by example type not a luke hodge or mathew pavlich inspire and direct team mates on field type.

Still clearly the best we have though, for now.

No - off the ball stuff, not off-field. Not questioning off-field SPR.

[Little Richard 6,262]

If you heard Roos on AFL360 this wee there was a lot of 'we' in his talking which is something I am hearing more and more. There was no reference to the players mental scarring but the CLUB as a whole: supporters, admin, staff, etc. He knows that EVERYONE has gone through a rough stint and you cannot change that overnight. Too much false hope has been given over the last ten years but I have seen significant change off-field which will (and it will) transfer on field.

That's essentially it in a nutshell. More patience is required at the moment, which is a big ask after so long in the shite.

The right people are in place.

Edited July 29, 2015 by Django

[old dee 23,791]

That's essentially it in a nutshell. More patience is required at the moment, which is a big ask after so long in the shite.

The right people are in place.

I am running on empty Django I only have one lifetime.

[boydie 655]

Glass half empty

Dawes could never mark and got consistently worse after he injured his hand in 2011 at the Pies

Terlich was never skillful and whilst he had dash ran into trouble a lot

Vandenberg is in his first season looking tired nothing else

Tyson had an injury interupted pre-season and has not been right all year, it is fairly obvious

Lamumba is no different at Melbourne to how he was at Collingwood

Clark - FMD the lisfranc injury may have had a fair bit to do with how he ended up

Trengove - as above

JKH - beyond the NAB cup game against Richmond and the odd cameo has shown nothing but glimpses, needs to work harder

Grimes - oh yes those years of wonderful disposal pin point accuracy how I crave for those moments back. Grimes had a shocker on the weekend but has performed well this season so lets not rewrite history

Agree. Average players in good sides look good, average players in bad sides look exactly what they look like.... average.

[Sir Why You Little 37,036]

• Dom Barry (ret)
• Sam Blease (del)
• Shannon Byrnes (ret)
• Mitch Clark (trd)
• Mitch Clisby (del)
• Michael Evans (del)
• James Frawley (FA)
• Alex Georgiou (del)
• Daniel Nicholson (del)
• James Strauss (del)
• Luke Tapscott (del)
• Tom Couch (del)
• Aaron Davey (ret)
• Troy Davis (del)
• Tom Gillies (del)
• Neville Jetta (del)
• Joel Macdonald (ret)
• James Magner (del)
• David Rodan (ret)
• James Sellar (del)
• Nathan Stark (del)
• Colin Sylvia (FA)
• Rory Taggert (del)
• Josh Tynan (del)

Here lieth the problem

So many draft picks who never got close to making the grade...

It's a long long way to the top...

Buckle up. A rough and turbulent journey is ahead....

[deanox 9,917]

We all know how far back we are coming from.

When Roos took over it was 7 years of rubbish. 7 years of no real leadership. 7 years of no structure off field. 7 years with 3 sacked coaches. 7 years of poor culture and average drafting.

Before that, for close to 10 years, we may have performed on field (some Years) but our culture sucked. We were flashy and fun but weren't hard working. We didn't chase or work for each other the way that football requires now.

The last few years we have been vfl standard at best. Perhaps only 30/40 players were actually worthy of being on AFL lists and of them perhaps only 15/30 performed at AFL level (albeit at bottom of the ladder AFL level).

In 18 months we have gone from sub AFL level to "bottom 4" level. In 18 months we have established a stability at the club, introducing new culture.

Anyone who thinks in 18 months weer could go from sub AFL level to the levels threat the saints or WCE (both recent finalists) can achieve is kidding themselves.

With the length of footy playing careers as they are, 7 years is an eternity. To rebuild a culture and a list you need 5 years to turn all the players over. To remove the last traces of poor culture, of rot.

It will take 2 more drafts to have a list of 40 that is comparable with other AFL clubs. Then we will be ready to potentially rapidly improve like saints or WB.

Until that time, when Goodwin takes over, we are in a transition period. Building a cultural base. Erasing 7 years of rubbish.

I'm not happy with how we are playing, but let's be realistic. More instability, more changes, are not going to fix this. Long term consistency and culture change is the only way we will dig out of it.

I know it hurts. And rubbish like the last few weeks it hard to put up with. But unfortunately it is the only way.

[chook fowler 19,459]

It's not just about Roos - it's the development team of McCartney, Goodwin, Plapp etc having time to make a difference. They have been at the club less than 12 months and already achieving. Gawn, Viney and Watts being the best examples, and Salem before injury.

There is absolutely no point in changing direction now that the fundamentals are in place.

No doubt several of the losses should never have occurred but it is a sign that there are list changes that need to be made and the game plan is still evolving.

In the mean time we just have to suck it up..

[Gorgoroth 12,950]

Yep, suck it up, just like we did every second year under Daniher, then every bloody year since 06.

How about instead of sucking it up, the club gets some moral fibre and dishes it out.

The players need to stand up and stop the rot. If they want to win games well it's up to them to truly give a [censored]. Not have a go and then give up, but go from minute one Monday to the last minute Sunday.

If they had put up a decent fight and we got beaten I'll wear that, but I'm constantly seeing players not give a toss. And I'm out of patience and demand freakin effort! 100% effort, 100% of the time.

[deanox 9,917]

Yep, suck it up, just like we did every second year under Daniher, then every bloody year since 06.

How about instead of sucking it up, the club gets some moral fibre and dishes it out.

The players need to stand up and stop the rot. If they want to win games well it's up to them to truly give a [censored]. Not have a go and then give up, but go from minute one Monday to the last minute Sunday.

If they had put up a decent fight and we got beaten I'll wear that, but I'm constantly seeing players not give a toss. And I'm out of patience and demand freakin effort! 100% effort, 100% of the time.

Gorgoroth, I have no problems with your anger at the performances, but the argument that the "club should dish it out" doesn't actually represent a path forward.

The club is sorting its [censored] out.

It has appointed a a coach who may not be an elite tactitician but he is a culture builder, on a three year contract to sort the rot. It has also appointed a well regarded communicator and tactician as heir apparent. By appointing an heir apparent it has brought stability to a club that has lacked it, and given it time to devlop the culture.

It has appointed a group of well respected support staff to develop players.

It has removed as many players who don't stand up as possible in a short period of time.

What else would you have it do??? Sack the coach again because the players didn't perform immediately? Sack all the players at the end of this year and redraft 40 new players???

We are doing what can be done. The only thing that can be done. To rectify 7 years of cultural rubbish is a lnog term process. And we are 18 months into that, with a new, stable administration and well respected coaching staff.

You want an overnight fix? It isn't going to hpapen unless we open the market up EPL style and have a generous donor provide us with more money than other clubs have. Because in the current AFL, with the draft and the salary cap, the list can only be improved by 4-6 players per year, with 2-3 additional journeymen effectively trading places with other journey men, and until we develop our own culture over 3-5 years, we will not be providing significant development to established players.

[Curry & Beer 5,444]

Tyson had an injury interupted pre-season and has not been right all year, it is fairly obvious

[Henrietta Lumbago 331]

Adam, I've seen Jones ignore team rules, run around getting cheap kicks and regularly butcher his possessions. He doesn't do a lot of off-the-ball team stuff. Do you ever, ever see him instructing players, consoling players, directing? I see it very rarely. He is good without being very good. He struggles to lead by example and he struggles to lead through voice/communication. But he is the best we've got I think. He shows moments of good leadership. Moments. But what do we do?

Song, he is not "the problem", but rather an example of one element of the problem - a dearth of genuinely talented players with leadership skills. We actually have none.

You obviously didnt watch the vision of him mic'd up against the tigers i think it was...you should watch it if you can find it somewhere.

[Little Richard 6,262]

For once we have a plan in place and there is clear, steady improvement. Not as rapid as we'd all like, but there is obvious improvement.

We are coming from further back than any side ever has. We finally have a nucleus of good, young players who'll mature together and pull the club upwards with them.

We'll be paying for past mistakes for at least a couple more years and we just have to weather it.

[Henrietta Lumbago 331]

Its about in field success....Roos and Jackson have said it a number of times and so far it hasnt happened...hence why so far it hasnt really worked.

4 wins and then probably 6 wins in two years is not a big improvemnet...

[Slartibartfast 17,279]

Lamumba is no different at Melbourne to how he was at Collingwood

Lumumba finished 4th in Collingwoods best and fairest last year if my memory serves me correctly. He would be lucky to be in the MFC top 10. He may have been in our best 3 once.

If he wasn't playing he'd be one of the last players I'd be worried about. Hell, if people pick on Grimes what do they think about this bloke. It's hard to remember too many bits of genuinely constructive play from him this season. For a senior player he's been exceptionally disappointing.

IMO he's erratic with his decision making and disposal, good at one on one ground ball contests and timid in the extreme in the air. His desperation is poor. His shocking effort to spoil Daniher in the last seconds of the Essendon game are representative of the way he plays and showed a lack of leadership. By spoiling Daniher he may have given away a free but Daniher would have been sore which wouldn't have helped him kick it 50 metres. If Viney had been where Lumumba was it would have been a different scenario.

Lumumba in my opinion was much more effective at Collingwood. He may be having trouble adapting to the different game plan, the game plan mightn't suit him, he may be playing injured, he may be struggling with less capable players around him but he certainly isn't playing like he was at Collingwood. He's been a poor pick up for the price.

[Gorgoroth 12,950]

Effort requires only a mindset. The coaching staff have put up with players going half arsed all year.

I tipped 6-8 wins for the year but said I'd cop 6 if the effort was good all year. We have not had good effort for weeks yet it's the same players in and out and then as a sub.

The whole club, players, coaches need to re asses because what they are dishing up is putrid.

It's close to the Neeld days with a better team and coaching staff

[Henrietta Lumbago 331]

For once we have a plan in place and there is clear, steady improvement. Not as rapid as we'd all like, but there is obvious improvement.

We are coming from further back than any side ever has. We finally have a nucleus of good, young players who'll mature together and pull the club upwards with them.

We'll be paying for past mistakes for at least a couple more years and we just have to weather it.

I hate the game plan, low scoring indirect ...yeah yeah we are getting the defensive side fixed up first..but we cant even get the ball inside our attacking 50 more than 45 times...look at what Beveridge and Richardson have done with their teams...attacking attractive football which is producing results....

[Little Richard 6,262]

Effort requires only a mindset. The coaching staff have put up with players going half arsed all year.

I tipped 6-8 wins for the year but said I'd cop 6 if the effort was good all year. We have not had good effort for weeks yet it's the same players in and out and then as a sub.

The whole club, players, coaches need to re asses because what they are dishing up is putrid.

It's close to the Neeld days with a better team and coaching staff

It's not close to the Neeld years and you know that. We were consistently losing by 100 points each week and the players obviously did not care one iota.

For the most part, the players have been trying hard this year. They look hurt when we lose. The fact is that many of them are just not good enough.

We're getting there, I have faith. It's just a slow slog.