THE SAGA CONTINUES - WADA APPEALS

[beelzebub 22,225]

Significant in my view. Despite what we know and what we think we know and the circumstantial evidence, cannot see WADA getting up without new evidence coming in the form of uncovered documentation or someone breaking ranks with the EFC.

doesnt need any NEW evidence...thats a blind. Everything is ALREADY there...for those that will SEE, and comprehend. The Tribunal had no interest in a fair appraisal of ALL that was before it. It selectively applied one rational here, another and then stuck its head up its arse. It did what teh AFL intended....whitewash !!

CAS will see things very differently. "No new evidence,,,,WADA to fail" Its a campaign to throw doubt etc.. its a joke

[hemingway 7,597]

"Is the AFL thinking about walking away from the WADA code? If not, it should be because the decision of WADA to appeal suggests a complete disregard of the interests of the AFL competition and the players," Smith said.

Is this guy for real? It's in the interests of the game to have this question left hanging? Really? I would have thought that until this is resolved once and for all the game has a very dark cloud hanging over it. The interests of the AFL and ALL of the players will be best served by getting to the bottom of what took place

everyone has a barrow to push. smith has just joined the queue of all the other barrow pushers.

[daisycutter 28,602]

Probably. When you get an overload of narcissism and a compulsive need to blame everyone but yourself, who knows what can happen?

FWIW they could have handed over the only copy of Tania's notes as well I am not sure it is fair to say she is not the sharpest tool in the shed --- I think she is not the sharpest tool in the entire Bunnings warehouse ...

or as gs says "the green shop". masters is "the blue shop". he spends a lot of time with his dad there

[ManDee 7,089]

WADA appeal against Essendon a 'witch hunt', claims lawyer

Graham Smith, a Melbourne lawyer believes that by exercising its lawful right to appeal the AFL Tribunal's decision in the case of the Essendon 34, WADA is engaging in a 'witch hunt'.

My response to that is that, just as there is "good" thymosin and "bad" thymosin, there are "good" witches and "bad" witches and if WADA is hunting for the "bad" guys in a quest to uncover the truth, then it's fulfilling its charter for the benefit of world sport and I'm all in favour.

This goes to the heart of the reason for the appeal and it's a pity Chip used the example of Hexarelin rather than TB4 but, in any event, it should be clear that there is a strongly arguable case that the AFL Tribunal demanded the far stricter standard of proof being beyond reasonable doubt rather than that of comfortable satisfaction as required for an anti-doping offence even though it said it applied the latter standard. This is why Smith's comments on WADA's appeal are ludicrous.

witch hunt

• Word Origin

noun

1.

an intensive effort to discover and expose disloyalty, subversion,dishonesty, or the like, usually based on slight, doubtful, or irrelevant evidence.

I don't have a problem with that.

[binman 38,507]

Some of your best work, Binman. (For those who don't appreciate Binman's work, try this.)

Great clip LDC. Neil at his peak, though i have to say he's maintained his brilliance for an amazingly long time - in fact has anyone ever been so good for so long? Perhaps Bob Dylan but he had a big period where he released nothing or rubbish until Modern Times. Robert Plants stuff in the last decade has been as good as anything he did with zep (Raising Sand with Alison Krauss is a stone cold classic) but there as along hiatus. But Neil keeps knocking them out of the park

[beelzebub 22,225]

Something for consideration regards any idea of the AFL 'releasing itself of obligation from participating in WADA code observance. It is just about compulsory ( my understanding ) that any sporting group in this country receiving and grants/funding , help of any persuasion from a Government of semi -gov authority MUST be subscribed to the relevant code dealing with, well anything. i.e Doping/drugs...WADA. Police checks and Working with Children required to underage sports etc. Coach moving to full accreditations...right across

Should the AFL withdrawl they are likely to then not be in line for ANY money from these kind of sources. Their Grass-roots funding and ability to participate effectively against competing codes, indeed any sports fighting for numbers etc will be sorely hampered. It would be business suicide.

There is a groundswell of disillusionment amongst many parent towards any sport that cant govern itself, cant protect their kids. Parent dont want kids anywhere near drugs and rightly so. They would vote with their feet and abandon AFL in sufficient numbers to do the game much harm should Gil the Dill attempt any such stupidity ( let alone do it )

[Sir Why You Little 34,603]

There is no doubt in my mind that Drugendon are paying Lawyers to write and verbal "Cash for Comments" to push their own agenda

Some of the rubbish written about WADA/ASADA is just wrong

The AFLPA are also a complete disgrace. They of all should be in WADA's corner. Player Health.....

This saga is going to get really filthy and nasty

Drugendon are going to get ripped apart and the AFL is powerless

Vlad should never have tipped them off

Fat Fool you are Vlad...Your tenure was a sham

No regard for player welfare in terms of ACTUALLY finding out what was injected.

I loath this club beyond words

Let us pray that WADA feels the same way.

Edited May 14, 2015 by Sir Why You Little

[La Dee-vina Comedia 16,463]

Great clip LDC. Neil at his peak, though i have to say he's maintained his brilliance for an amazingly long time - in fact has anyone ever been so good for so long? Perhaps Bob Dylan but he had a big period where he released nothing or rubbish until Modern Times. Robert Plants stuff in the last decade has been as good as anything he did with zep (Raising Sand with Alison Krauss is a stone cold classic) but there as along hiatus. But Neil keeps knocking them out of the park

How about Tony "I Left My Heart in San Francisco" Bennett? Different sort of music, but still going at about 85.

[Ted Lasso 16,863]

Damien Barrett wrote a decent article... Wtf

[hemingway 7,597]

doesnt need any NEW evidence...thats a blind. Everything is ALREADY there...for those that will SEE, and comprehend. The Tribunal had no interest in a fair appraisal of ALL that was before it. It selectively applied one rational here, another and then stuck its head up its arse. It did what teh AFL intended....whitewash !!

CAS will see things very differently. "No new evidence,,,,WADA to fail" Its a campaign to throw doubt etc.. its a joke

I disagree Beelze, although I admire your relentless and enduring positive commentary. You do not let go. I hope you are rewarded.

[La Dee-vina Comedia 16,463]

Great post, except the first sentence is wrong. The tribunal didn't even consider what Dank did or didn't do at the club because they didn't know what the substance was so it didn't matter. I think if the tribunal joined a dot or two they would have ended up where you say, unfortunately they didn't want to.

Wasn't it ASADA's job to join the dots, rather than the Tribunal? That may sound like a pithy and pedantic comment, but wasn't that the way the process was meant to work? ASADA had to present a case that would "join the dots" to the comfortable satisfaction of the Tribunal and, in the Tribunal's view, failed to do so.

[Sir Why You Little 34,603]

Wasn't it ASADA's job to join the dots, rather than the Tribunal? That may sound like a pithy and pedantic comment, but wasn't that the way the process was meant to work? ASADA had to present a case that would "join the dots" to the comfortable satisfaction of the Tribunal and, in the Tribunal's view, failed to do so.

Only because certain people refused to speak and certain crucial evidence was "lost"

ASADA did a fine job not that the media parrots will ever agree with that.

[beelzebub 22,225]

I disagree Beelze, although I admire your relentless and enduring positive commentary. You do not let go. I hope you are rewarded.

Ernest, in all seriousness, what real evidence is needed thats not already there.? The Tribunal deliberately chose to 'evade' particular paths evidentiary construction thus allaying them of needing to tackle further "curly' ones.

With more 'balanced' viewing of what is ALREADY there an entirely different construct can be had.

[La Dee-vina Comedia 16,463]

Only because certain people refused to speak and certain crucial evidence was "lost"

ASADA did a fine job not that the media parrots will ever agree with that.

If you believe that the reason the Tribunal came to the conclusion that it did "Only because certain people refused to speak and certain crucial evidence was "lost"", didn't the AFL Tribunal come to the only decision it was possible for it to make under such circumstances?

If you want to argue that (1) people being able to refuse to speak or (2) that the "loss" of crucial evidence is some form of contempt of the process, that's a different argument and one that shouldn't be allowed to slip through to the keeper without further consideration.

[Dees2014 2,377]

I notice on here recently that many are calling for Essendon to be suspended for 2-4 years or banned altogether. I think we should be a bit careful what we wish for.

A ban on Essendon would dismantle the economics of our game, unravel media rights particular at a time when they are up for renegotiation, and of the rules that the AFL has carefully built up over the years to make the competition more equitable and frankly more interesting. I'm not sure any of us wants that to happen. It also may explain why the AFL has been so manipulative in this exercise in an effort to protect the economics of the game.

But this must not, and cannot be through allowing rouge elements to get away with cheating, or defiance of drug rules as set out in the WADA code. I am definitely not making excuses or softening the need to have those responsible for this appalling situation at Essendon punished. The WADA/CAS process must take its course in accordance with the WADA code.

Let's assume though as a result of the appeal to CAS, a portion (more than 3) of the players were to be banned for 2 years. This then gives grounds for Essendon as a whole to receive the same treatment. I'm not entirely certain the mechanism for doing this but I have an idea the sentences are the responsibility for the code itself through its own Tribunals, but they must satisfy CAS they are reasonable and commensurate with the crime. This may leave therefore some room for negotiation.

It this were the case, what would be reasonable, but also protect the future of the AFL itself? How about something like this?

A. Essendon admit their responsibility for this affair, and apologise to the broader football community for bringing the game into disrepute, and putting their players health at risk, and apologise to the broader Australian sporting public for tarnishing the good name of Australian sport;

B. Hird, and his key staff get life bans, some of the Board including Little resign, and basically rebuild the club from within. The new administration would then have to undertake to put in place a governance regime reflecting the WADA code and best practice risk management; and

C. Essendon continue playing in the AFL but with a revised list minus the banned players.

Meantime, WorkSafe continue their investigation and have the cards fall as they may. The rest will be worked out in the courts as the legal actions from players, the Hirds, and the agents commence and conclude, no doubt costing the club tens of millions of dollars.

Hopefully, by the end of all this there will be a viable AFL competition, a contrite, consierably poorer Essendon, and a wiser AFL which understands the need for modern risk management practices in itself and its clubs. And there is a firm reaffirmation of the AFL's commitment to, and championing of, the WADA codes across all Australian sport.

Maybe some good could come out of all yet.

Edited May 14, 2015 by Dees2014

[rjay 23,927]

http://www.theage.com.au/afl/afl-news/james-hirds-distorted-thinking-evident-once-again-as-wada-appeals-essendon-decision-20150512-gh01xv.html

Caro sticks the boots in

on an unrelated note - anyone who doesnt like WADA or ASADA (whatever you think of their competence or lack of it) is effectively pro drugs in sport. When i read comments on the herald sun website along the lines of "they are hopeless and a waste of government money", i wonder if that person really wants their sport full of drugs.

the prospect of the AFL commission choosing to walk away from the WADA code sickens me. If they did choose to do that, the backlash on them from the average supporter i hope would be significant - certainly it would pretty much kill my interest in football.

Totally with you on this, as much as I love the game it is a sport and needs to be played free of drugs. It would join the line of many former sports I used to be interested in but have no trust in the integrity of now.

[jnrmac 19,076]

doesnt need any NEW evidence...thats a blind. Everything is ALREADY there...for those that will SEE, and comprehend. The Tribunal had no interest in a fair appraisal of ALL that was before it. It selectively applied one rational here, another and then stuck its head up its arse. It did what teh AFL intended....whitewash !!

CAS will see things very differently. "No new evidence,,,,WADA to fail" Its a campaign to throw doubt etc.. its a joke

The key is in the level of proof with WADA / CAS implying/saying the burden of proof used by the AFL tribunal was too high ie: 100% certainty that they used TB4 when they know it was ordered, bought, compounded, sent to Dank and Dank thought he was injecting it BUT wa can't be 100% sure that what came from the factory was TB4.

They could be on to something....

[beelzebub 22,225]

Damien Barrett wrote a decent article... Wtf

for those unaware :

More lies, counter-claims and hatred: Can WADA do what ASADA couldn't?

I fell decidedly odd posting something from DB in a positive manner. . Strange times !!

Its a reasonable portrayal of the situation though...so well done Barrett.. ( think I need to shower )

[Sir Why You Little 34,603]

If you believe that the reason the Tribunal came to the conclusion that it did "Only because certain people refused to speak and certain crucial evidence was "lost"", didn't the AFL Tribunal come to the only decision it was possible for it to make under such circumstances?

If you want to argue that (1) people being able to refuse to speak or (2) that the "loss" of crucial evidence is some form of contempt of the process, that's a different argument and one that shouldn't be allowed to slip through to the keeper without further consideration.

I agree. Now let us hope WADA/CAS can get the pivotal evidence out of these rogue chemical salesmen..

[beelzebub 22,225]

The key is in the level of proof with WADA / CAS implying/saying the burden of proof used by the AFL tribunal was too high ie: 100% certainty that they used TB4 when they know it was ordered, bought, compounded, sent to Dank and Dank thought he was injecting it BUT wa can't be 100% sure that what came from the factory was TB4.

They could be on to something....

surely the logic you come to this is...you apply the SAME level to ALL evidence...It then falls where it falls etc

I would also suggest WADA will definitely pose the counter argument to this situation. "If not TB4 then what? and how, and ...and ...and "

[daisycutter 28,602]

Wasn't it ASADA's job to join the dots, rather than the Tribunal? That may sound like a pithy and pedantic comment, but wasn't that the way the process was meant to work? ASADA had to present a case that would "join the dots" to the comfortable satisfaction of the Tribunal and, in the Tribunal's view, failed to do so.

maybe they did but the tribunal employed (imo) a more "beyond reasonable doubt" thinking rather than "comfortable satisfaction"

i doubt any of the tribunal members had experience with "comfortable satisfaction" and were themselves "uncomfortable" with such an alien (to them) concept

matters were not helped by the tribunal being held in camera and little public release of all their findings, so to comment that "asada didn't join the dots" is just pure conjecture

[rjay 23,927]

for those unaware :

More lies, counter-claims and hatred: Can WADA do what ASADA couldn't?

I fell decidedly odd posting something from DB in a positive manner. . Strange times !!

Its a reasonable portrayal of the situation though...so well done Barrett.. ( think I need to shower )

This is the area he is suited to comment on 'bb'.

Purple, Hutchy & Carro along with a few others are up the creek when talking about football, the game.

[Ted Lasso 16,863]

surely the logic you come to this is...you apply the SAME level to ALL evidence...It then falls where it falls etc

I would also suggest WADA will definitely pose the counter argument to this situation. "If not TB4 then what? and how, and ...and ...and "

this is a good point BB, the argument being that the substance ordered wasn't thymomodulin, so it was either TB4 or something else, Essendon have no records and others have said it's TB4 so personally i'd be comfortably satisfied that is what it was, and suddenly the lack of records comes back to bite them.

[beelzebub 22,225]

maybe they did but the tribunal employed (imo) a more "beyond reasonable doubt" thinking rather than "comfortable satisfaction"

i doubt any of the tribunal members had experience with "comfortable satisfaction" and were themselves "uncomfortable" with such an alien (to them) concept

matters were not helped by the tribunal being held in camera and little public release of all their findings, so to comment that "asada didn't join the dots" is just pure conjecture

Is there any real doubt in hindsight why these 3 "wise' ones were selected by the AFL ?

[faultydet 7,593]

There is no doubt in my mind that Drugendon are paying Lawyers to write and verbal "Cash for Comments" to push their own agenda

Some of the rubbish written about WADA/ASADA is just wrong

The AFLPA are also a complete disgrace. They of all should be in WADA's corner. Player Health.....

This saga is going to get really filthy and nasty

Drugendon are going to get ripped apart and the AFL is powerless

Vlad should never have tipped them off

Fat Fool you are Vlad...Your tenure was a sham

No regard for player welfare in terms of ACTUALLY finding out what was injected.

I loath this club beyond words

Let us pray that WADA feels the same way.

Nicely put mate. I agree with every word.

Im beyond contempt for them now. I honestly hope the players are found guilty, banned for 2 years, and then sue the club out of its miserable existence.

As for the AFLPA, they are simply showing what their real mission is, and that is to protect the players MONEY, in preference to their health. Watch them change tack when guily verdicts are given, or positive test results are found. Then it will be six shooters blazing into the sky, while they charge like a western posse towards the nearest court. Their behaviour in all of this has been disgusting also, but you can read their future like a book.

AFL interest - MONEY

AFLPA interest - MONEY

WADA/ASADA - Justice