THE SAGA CONTINUES - WADA APPEALS

[chookrat 4,250]

There a good question for you Lance, if there are no good records, and they never existed, and they cant tell the players what they injected them with, why has the EFC not sued the pants off Dank or at the very least taken him to court to get the records?

The EFC went further than this by meeting with Charter and Dank to find weaknesses in ASADA's case when show cause notices were issued.

There is no other rational explanation other than the EFC cheating. Unfortunately I don't think the players set out to cheat and nor did the supporters. The sad part is WADA can only go after the players, who will in turn sue the club which will hurt the supporters which is the unfortunate part of this.

I'm even if the view that Hird was let down by his club in this instance as he was An inexperienced coach reporting to a management team tasked with Governance.

You'd think life bans, significant fines and possible jail time would be appropriate for executives that failed in their duties to provide a safe environment for employees.

[Cards13 9,117]

As I understand cards13 I think they can.

Correct me if wrong.

Well I don't know, I've asked a few times in here and not gotten an answer. If that is the case then they just might well be Sepp Blatter'd Edited May 29, 2015 by Cards13

[DemonFrog 1,354]

Does Hirdy pay you by the hour or the number of forum posts you do?

I see your Lance Uppercut and raise you a swift kick in the family jewels.

[Demon Dynasty 17,109]

There a good question for you Lance, if there are no good records, and they never existed, and they cant tell the players what they injected them with, why has the EFC not sued the pants off Dank or at the very least taken him to court to get the records?

I suspect no one really wants Dank to be called before a statutory authority and "spill the beans" Chris. Especially the AFL & the EFC. Quite happy for him to move on and brush the dirt under the carpet.

Easier to avoid an AFL lead investigation where he couldn't be called upon or forced to give evidence than be caught up in a civil prosecution if he aired any dirty laundry against the AFL/EFC to the press. No doubt he was made well aware of the possible financial implications if he did (spill) by those with the most to lose.

Edited May 30, 2015 by Rusty Nails

[robbiefrom13 887]

Lance feigns superiority just like Hird does. Irritating. For me, when CAS comes down heavily on Essendon's outrageous challenge to sport, the thought that Hird and all the Lances of the world have finally been silenced will be one minor part of the satisfaction. I can't stand con-men and spin-merchants and liars. But in the meantime surely Demonland would be better off without Lance?

All his posts are evasion and denial, trying to give the impression of being the reasonable and intelligent one here, with all the cards.

Why on earth would any of us give his bulshit the time of day? It's not as though he's here to listen or to concede anything. And who cares anyway?

I wonder (just briefly) whether he feels better after making his airy displays of nonchalance on Demonland? Can he really be as self deluding as that?

[Dees2014 2,377]

Lance obviously loves the kerfuffle facts and unlike sanityprevails is actually pretty good at trolling, in large part due to the fact that he raises some valid points.

One of these is that it remains a possibility that the players are in fact innocent of taking PEDs. Yes, based on what is public knowledge on the balance of probabilities it would appear the players took PEDs. However much of that info is scuttlebutt and unreliable and few if any on these board would have been privy to the evidence presented at the tribunal.

So despite some people's furious rejection of any idea the players might be innocent, it remains one of the possibilities. Ipso facto it remains possible that WADA will not be able to mount a successful case. Indeed it remains a possibility that even if the players did take PEDs ASADA may still not be able to to mount a successful case.

Anything is possible. In my case, all I have ever wanted is a fair and balanced investigation into this saga. I think evidence is there that there were at least unusual practices going on (wide ranging injection program off site over a considerable period of time, importation of illegal materials which circumstantial evidence seems to be connected to the EFC, disappearance of record keeping which would be expected to be kept and in 99% of cases, involvement of people with criminal records related to pedalling and importation of illegal drugs, etc etc etc).

Athletes around the world have received lengthy bans with a lot less evidence than this under the WADA code. All I ask is that this evidence is considered by experts in this field in a totally unbiased manner, in an atmosphere of impartiality. It has not been up to date. It will be by CAS outside the hysterical atmosphere which is created by Hird, Essendon, and AFL aided and abetted by the Australian Press whenever it is considered in Australia. Fortunately for those of us concerned about fairness, it looks as though it will now be moved to Europe.where it will be considered in an unbiased, well balanced manner.

Under these circumstances, I will be more than happy to accept the Umpires' decision. Will those who created this mess? Somehow I doubt it.

[What 18,810]

Look how crap of a player Jobe Watson is now that the AOD has worn off

Hand back the Brownlow son, you are rubbish without extra help in the form of injections

[grazman 7,436]

I'm even if the view that Hird was let down by his club in this instance as he was An inexperienced coach reporting to a management team tasked with Governance.

No.No.No. Whether an inexperienced coach or not he's got enough AFL and 'life' experience to understand right from wrong. The injection regime was at his instigation, no one else's - James Hird's. The governance failures were clearly that management were letting James run his own race. without adequate supervision.

[chookrat 4,250]

No.No.No. Whether an inexperienced coach or not he's got enough AFL and 'life' experience to understand right from wrong. The injection regime was at his instigation, no one else's - James Hird's. The governance failures were clearly that management were letting James run his own race. without adequate supervision.

There is no way that an experienced board would allow a coach to run a supplements program without understanding potential risks and the controls required to control risks. Governance is the boards primary role and the safety of employees is their domain above all else. I find it inconceivable that the board were unaware of the program, its risks to players and to the club.

Had the board put appropriate controls in place we would not be talking about the supplements saga and players would not be in a position where they were injected with potentially harmful substances.

[grazman 7,436]

I find it inconceivable that the board were unaware of the program, its risks to players and to the club.

I don't, and it didn't - so there you go. The problem is in your conception of how football clubs 'work'.

[beelzebub 23,378]

It was run after all as a personal black ops under Fuhrer Hird. I expect some knew and many didn't. Some probably convinced to stay schtum.

Pretty Jimmy having no need nor concern of rules simply didn't bother informing anyone of the finer points. It was pseudo 'off the grid' stuff. The EFC as now were a shambolic and morally vacuous lot. The few that may have known didn't care, still don't.

[chookrat 4,250]

I don't, and it didn't - so there you go. The problem is in your conception of how football clubs 'work'.

The problem is that you rule out the idea that the board was aware of the program and what was going on. How can you be so sure that Hird masterminded the whole thing? Also, what makes you the preeminent authority on how elite sporting clubs work?

[grazman 7,436]

The problem is that you rule out the idea that the board was aware of the program and what was going on. How can you be so sure that Hird masterminded the whole thing? Also, what makes you the preeminent authority on how elite sporting clubs work?

Why do I need to be a preeminent authority to knock holes through your argument. Most people have heard enough stories about football clubs and their decision making to know that the only thing 'elite' about footy clubs is on the field - case in point is the Melbourne footy club for as long as I've barracked for them.

Hird did mastermind the whole thing (with help and encouragement from Shane Charters). If you choose not to believe the hearsay then that's fine, but the testimony of both the club doctor (Reid) and Coaching Director (Thompson) who both tried to put a stop to the regime after they found out is ample evidence that governance was less than 'elite'. In your words (channeling Vazzini) it's 'inconceivable' that if there was good governance these two would not have had oversight of the programme. They didn't.

[george_on_the_outer 7,603]

There is no way that an experienced board would allow a coach to run a supplements program without understanding potential risks and the controls required to control risks. Governance is the boards primary role and the safety of employees is their domain above all else. I find it inconceivable that the board were unaware of the program, its risks to players and to the club.

Had the board put appropriate controls in place we would not be talking about the supplements saga and players would not be in a position where they were injected with potentially harmful substances.

The EFC Board did not know what was going on...That is why they commissioned the report from Ziggy Switzkowski.

And that had a finding of a "pharmacological experiment" being conducted at the club.

[chookrat 4,250]

Why do I need to be a preeminent authority to knock holes through your argument. Most people have heard enough stories about football clubs and their decision making to know that the only thing 'elite' about footy clubs is on the field - case in point is the Melbourne footy club for as long as I've barracked for them.

Hird did mastermind the whole thing (with help and encouragement from Shane Charters). If you choose not to believe the hearsay then that's fine, but the testimony of both the club doctor (Reid) and Coaching Director (Thompson) who both tried to put a stop to the regime after they found out is ample evidence that governance was less than 'elite'. In your words (channeling Vazzini) it's 'inconceivable' that if there was good governance these two would not have had oversight of the programme. They didn't.

Grazman - to me the hearsay is really just noise but the actions say much more.

Why did the club extend Hird's contract and send him to France? It seems an odd thing for a club to do for someone who ran a rogue supplements program.

Bruce Reid's testimony and letter lend weight to the club hierarchy being complicit as they received his letter but did not act.

Mark Thompson's interview came after he left the club and paint him in a good light.

It also seems convenient that the EFC's commissioned report prepared by Ziggy centred on the lack of governance. Why commission a report that paints your organisation in a poor light unless it is to mask something even worse?

Is it unreasonable to consider the possibility that the EFC deliberately set out to use PEDs to gain an advantage and the club hierarchy was supportive of this?

[Dees2014 2,377]

Grazman - to me the hearsay is really just noise but the actions say much more.

Why did the club extend Hird's contract and send him to France? It seems an odd thing for a club to do for someone who ran a rogue supplements program.

Bruce Reid's testimony and letter lend weight to the club hierarchy being complicit as they received his letter but did not act.

Mark Thompson's interview came after he left the club and paint him in a good light.

It also seems convenient that the EFC's commissioned report prepared by Ziggy centred on the lack of governance. Why commission a report that paints your organisation in a poor light unless it is to mask something even worse?

Is it unreasonable to consider the possibility that the EFC deliberately set out to use PEDs to gain an advantage and the club hierarchy was supportive of this?

Well if the Club hierarchy and Board were complicit in the doping program Hird set up, then WorkCover will certainly get them and they will all go to jail. The act is quite explicit on this. That is a deliberate setting up and running of an unsafe workplace over an extended period of time.

Personally, I think Hird hid it from the Board, but I have no doubt the executive group knew including Reid. They all should be banned for life by WADA, and this will almost certainly follow the CAS hearings, particularly if they find the players guilty as I think they will. There is nothing to stop ASADA issuing infraction notices to the hierarchy post these CAS hearings, and if the players are found guilty that is a logical extension.

[beelzebub 23,378]

Well if the Club hierarchy and Board were complicit in the doping program Hird set up, then WorkCover will certainly get them and they will all go to jail. The act is quite explicit on this. That is a deliberate setting up and running of an unsafe workplace over an extended period of time.

Personally, I think Hird hid it from the Board, but I have no doubt the executive group knew including Reid. They all should be banned for life by WADA, and this will almost certainly follow the CAS hearings, particularly if they find the players guilty as I think they will. There is nothing to stop ASADA issuing infraction notices to the hierarchy post thee CAS hearings, and if the players are found guilty that is a logical extension.

this ^^^^

There are at clubs,, different 'circles'. Some exist in one that doesnt need any hands on involvement and there are those that squirrel their way into all the nooks. Some will have known even if generally most didnt. There again is always the 'official" line and also what some know under the table and keep it to themselves until it has some currency for what ever they see it fit for. This quite simply is the way of the world.

Some should and will go down for this.

[beelzebub 23,378]

In the article by Rohan Connolly: http://www.theage.com.au/afl/afl-news/essendon-need-to-deal-with-some-harsh-home-truths-20150531-ghdjco.html

makes a couple of points worth remembering

"Mistakes in AFL football are damaging enough when they happen on the field. When they involve decisions taken off it, the results are more far-reaching. And when the impact of not one but several of those calls run concurrently, the consequences can be grave indeed.

Essendon made probably the biggest mistake the game has ever seen when they pushed the boundaries of sports science too far in 2012, the impact of which may be felt for several years yet.

But there are a couple of direct spin-offs of the supplements saga that have the potential to do just as much damage, and they're becoming clearer with every game the Bombers play.

Essendon's meek offering against a steadfast Richmond in Dustin Fletcher's 400th game would have been disappointing enough in isolation. But it's more evidence that the Bombers should immediately ask themselves a couple of tough questions.

One is whether the travails their players have been through these past three seasons have created a disproportionate sense of loyalty to them, both on a week-to-week basis and in the longer term, from Essendon's coaching staff."

Firstly he correctly anoints the Essendon fiasco correctly as probably the biggest MISTAKE in footy but its the second that drew me to the article really. I wonder if much of the 'why" as to the reason that so few broke rank and pursued their own course of action was borne out of a shared 'shellshock' They were fed ' we're in this together malarky for so long ( and so hard ) that they felt it was an us or them battle. They were mind washed of any notion they were a victim as well and should seek counsel outside the club.

One senses it might be starting to unravel though.

[binman 42,996]

Anything is possible. In my case, all I have ever wanted is a fair and balanced investigation into this saga. I think evidence is there that there were at least unusual practices going on (wide ranging injection program off site over a considerable period of time, importation of illegal materials which circumstantial evidence seems to be connected to the EFC, disappearance of record keeping which would be expected to be kept and in 99% of cases, involvement of people with criminal records related to pedalling and importation of illegal drugs, etc etc etc).

Athletes around the world have received lengthy bans with a lot less evidence than this under the WADA code. All I ask is that this evidence is considered by experts in this field in a totally unbiased manner, in an atmosphere of impartiality. It has not been up to date. It will be by CAS outside the hysterical atmosphere which is created by Hird, Essendon, and AFL aided and abetted by the Australian Press whenever it is considered in Australia. Fortunately for those of us concerned about fairness, it looks as though it will now be moved to Europe.where it will be considered in an unbiased, well balanced manner.

Under these circumstances, I will be more than happy to accept the Umpires' decision. Will those who created this mess? Somehow I doubt it.

Yep good call Dees2014, agree with all of your comments.

If there is a guilty fining the reaction from EFC and Hird (and their media lackeys) will be fascinating. Their brains will explode with no further appeal option (outside the apparently very limited avenues with the Swiss courts system).

[Dees2014 2,377]

Yep good call Dees2014, agree with all of your comments.

If there is a guilty fining the reaction from EFC and Hird (and their media lackeys) will be fascinating. Their brains will explode with no further appeal option (outside the apparently very limited avenues with the Swiss courts system).

CAS is the final call. The Swiss courts will only accept appeals on procedural grounds including whether it is the jurisdiction of the Court, but these almost never succeed.

[Dees2014 2,377]

Perhaps for a bit of light relief, found this on Big Footy! A classic!!

I had an Essendon supporter in my house the other day and fcuk me are they slow.

I trolled on several occasions "Would you like a cup of Tea Before you go?"
Nothing
"I gave the kids a little pep talk about the tides in the interest of trigonometry."
Nothing
"we have several rugs in the house we have A-rugs B-rugs C-rugs, But all the D-rugs are in Essendon"
Nothing
"Your team are a bunch of f*cking drug cheats and you should feel bad"
What?

[beelzebub 23,378]

CAS is the final call. The Swiss courts will only accept appeals on procedural grounds including whether it is the jurisdiction of the Court, but these almost never succeed.

yes, there is no real appeal. If the 34 accede to go before CAS they have effectively agreed to terms and jurisdiction.. Kind of fait accompli !! lol They cant say after...but...but..

[daisycutter 29,616]

yes, there is no real appeal. If the 34 accede to go before CAS they have effectively agreed to terms and jurisdiction.. Kind of fait accompli !! lol They cant say after...but...but..

i'm sure they'll find someone to sue

they're very inventive

and they've got tania

[Dees2014 2,377]

this ^^^^

There are at clubs,, different 'circles'. Some exist in one that doesnt need any hands on involvement and there are those that squirrel their way into all the nooks. Some will have known even if generally most didnt. There again is always the 'official" line and also what some know under the table and keep it to themselves until it has some currency for what ever they see it fit for. This quite simply is the way of the world.

Some should and will go down for this.

Yes the pollies and crooked businessmen call it "plausible deniability". That about sums it up.The fact is though someone with authority to spend considerable sums of money dreamt up and/or authorized this appalling program. If it was the board, then they and the management will go. if it was just management, then they still both should go because they should have known, and could emerge as case of dereliction of duties as directors, and liable for prosecution under the companies act.

[DemonFrog 1,354]

Perhaps for a bit of light relief, found this on Big Footy! A classic!!

I had an Essendon supporter in my house the other day and fcuk me are they slow.

I trolled on several occasions "Would you like a cup of Tea Before you go?"

Nothing

"I gave the kids a little pep talk about the tides in the interest of trigonometry."

Nothing

"we have several rugs in the house we have A-rugs B-rugs C-rugs, But all the D-rugs are in Essendon"

Nothing

"Your team are a bunch of f*cking drug cheats and you should feel bad"

What?

Its not that they don't understand. its just they don't care.