When does the coach start taking the blame?

[Fat Tony 5,231]

Firstly, I think Demonland has gone too negative too early on a bunch of meaningless practice matches.

Roos has done a fine job at managing our list in difficult circumstances. This is the most important aspect of coaching IMO, because the players make the coach.

While Roos’s game style is very negative, game plans are virtually identical across the AFL these days. Personally I would like to see us become a bit bolder and play on more when we initially regain possession. And I think we are a bit too willing to give ground once we win a possession from a stoppage. But these are minor philosophical differences and who knows what Roos’s instructions are anyway. I also think Roos tends to overvalue height in team selection and our forward line can be too top heavy.

[Demon17 5,188]

Why would you question it after one season? We were one of the worst defensive sides of the modern era, particularly in 2013, and Roos' mandate when he first came in to the side was to rectify this. He did that, and it was for the time being at the expense of scoring. The players needed to learn to run both ways and we achieved that somewhat.

His biggest test is ahead in terms of keeping us sound defensively while also being able to score, something that may take some time, but your questioning of his tactics was unfounded and misguided.

And don't use the NAB Cup as an example. We all know Roos sees it as nothing more than a chance to experiment. We'll all know once the season gets going.

Good Point WB.

Roos stated first year aim was to stop the bleeding in defence which he succeeded in doing. Solid recruiting and further development will see the next steps re: improved attack.

He had us placed in the lead at 3/4 time in 9 games last year. Further work will see those opportunities converted.

[Slartibartfast 17,279]

WJ, praha, P-man and others have nailed it. I reckon most of us see what Paul Roos is doing, why it's difficult, and that the transition to being a 'complete' side,

Along with everyone I hope you're right. I read the same thing about Neeld with people excusing thrashings and blaming Bailey. I hope I don't see the same thing with Roos where people accept thrashings and blame Neeld.

I think it's completely valid to question everyone at the club and I worry about the blind acceptance of Roos based on his past alone. Having said that, we have no option but to go the course with Roos and Goodwin. But I won't stop wondering.

It's actually very simple: it's a lot easier to kick goals than it is to defend from them.

The team's problem has never been actually kicking goals: it's transition, countering transition, and being able to transition out of defense.

Forgot about attack. If you perfect your defensive structure and transition, the goals will come easily. Defense comes before attack. Always.

I agree with much of what you say but I'm not worried about us being able to defend, it's what we do with the ball when we are in possession. Our defense is acceptable, I think most agree on that.

Here are some stats, I hope I have them right.

Footscray had 996 disposals over their preseason going inside 50 153 times at an average of 6.5 disposals per I50 entry

Carlton had 871 disposals over their preseason going inside 50 119 times at an average of 7.31 disposals per I50 entry

Melbourne had 1057 disposals over our preseason going inside 50 130 times at an average of 8.13 disposals per I50 entry

Footscray and Carlton are teams I think we should be competitive with and compared to.

What that indicates is we don't get into scoring positions as often when we have the ball. I think that's a worry. The Footscray game is perhaps even more enlightening. We had the ball 403 times for 44 entries compared to the Dogs 239 disposals for 37 entries. 9.16 to 6.40 disposals per inside 50. We took, on average, about 50% longer (50% more possessions to get the ball into a scoring position). Even in the first half where they played like witches had and we dominated we were unable to put them away.

I have no problem with teaching a sound defense. Roos has proven beyond doubt he can do that. But to be successful we need to learn to attack. Roos hasn't proved he can do that.

I've seen too much blind acceptance during the Neeld and Schwab eras to now just blindly accept anything, including Roos.

I watched Brisbane play the Suns and Carlton play Geelong on the weekend. I struggle to accept we have lists much worse than these two clubs but our style of play is second rate by comparison. I struggle to accept we have a list much worse than Carlton and Brisbane but we lost to a top up team and they performed well against much better credentialed opposition.

I'm not suggesting Roos can't do it, I'm not suggesting for a moment his tenure should be challenged, I'm suggesting he hasn't yet proved he can teach teams how to kick goals and he's certainly not beyond examination.

Edited March 23, 2015 by Baghdad Bob

[hardtack 10,537]

Firstly, I think Demonland has gone too negative too early on a bunch of meaningless practice matches.

That's an annual event here on D'land.

[Demon17 5,188]

Completely agree. If we can get a win on the board first up it will give the players, coach's and supporters some much needed confidence. Confidence is something we have been lacking for a very long time.

As a ray of hope. On absolute good authority, Abletts shoulder is still not right and has had two hydro dilations so far to loosen it up but still doubtful - as of last week.

[Dommygun12 79]

I think sometimes we forget just how bad we were in 12 and 13 I really don't think we are that bad anymore.

I know this is a hypothetical situation but lets say we do win round 1 how many of us would immediately forget the shambles of the essendon PRE SEASON game.

after round 1 last year I admit I thought oh no were not winning a game this season were going to fold and so on only took a few inspiring wins to quickly change that perception FOR ME.

As much as a quick turnaround would be awesome port being a perfect example for some it does happen that quick others its a painful and long process which is the boat we unfortunately sit in but it is coming people

[Curry & Beer 5,444]

Firstly, I think Demonland has gone too negative too early on a bunch of meaningless practice matches.

Last week I agreed with you, and I am not concerned with how many players the bombers had out, or even the fact we lost on the scoreboard, it's the WAY we played - just fumble after fumble after shanked kick after dropped mark after handballs that missed etc etc etc all night long. It really was deplorable stuff.

[13thFlagIsComing 542]

If I was a coach these would be my non - negotiables.

1) Shallow inside 50's - 50-60 meters out and we don't bomb it long to the top of the square. There's a time and a place for these and there's a time to bomb it long. What's the point of kicking 20 m inside to a player 30m out? Personally i'd rather bomb it to the top of the square and get ready defensively in case defenders get the ball out.

2) Never kick backward behind half back unless you really have to - I hate it - Plus if you have to switch make sure the ball is horizontal to or moving forward from the player kicking it.

3) Down the line - On the flanks kick the ball down the line not going inside the centre square unless there is a clear option. If I was past the wing that's when I would go inside not from behind centre half back.

[sue 9,106]

We were ahead at 3/4-time 9 times last year. In 2012/13 if someone made a prediction that that would happen in 2014, most posters here would have said 'in your dreams'.

We saw in the first half of the Bulldog game that we can spread and hit targets. The skill is there (with enough notable exceptions to ensure we won't be high in the ladder).

Confidence is the key. If we start winning games, it will come naturally.

But if we don't, Roos needs to find a way to build confidence even if we don't actually win games and so we don't go into our shells when the opponents apply pressure, both scoreboard and otherwise.

[rjay 24,928]

If we don't show improvement this year then he should shoulder some of the blame, no doubt about that.

Lets watch what happens...

[hardtack 10,537]

If we don't show improvement this year then he should shoulder some of the blame, no doubt about that.

Lets watch what happens...

I'm pretty confident the improvement will be there. The improvements in the Roos implemented defensive game were patently obvious to all well before the end of last season. With Goodwin now applying an attacking mindset that will slot in on top of the defensive model, I think we will start to see some of those close losses turning into narrow victories. It took Roos a large part of a season to get the defensive plan working, so let's give Goodwin the same "grace" period to get the attack up and running.

[jabberwocky 2,301]

Confidence is the key. If we start winning games, it will come naturally.

Confidence in the plan and a plan that is about confidence. There is no doubt that is what Roos wants.

Strategy and confidence aren't mutually exclusive.

I still believe that our inability to take contested marks is still a barrier in going forward with conviction.

[jumbo returns 6,741]

Let's make those blokes ON THE FIELD, who command a FAT PAY PACKET be accountable for their actions!

The only one (for me) who seems to 'get it' is Jack Watts.....

[Fork 'em 6,983]

Let's make those blokes ON THE FIELD, who command a FAT PAY PACKET be accountable for their actions!

The only one (for me) who seems to 'get it' is Jack Watts.....

The buck stops with the coach who's on the FATTEST PAY PACKET.

Edited March 23, 2015 by Fork 'em

[Fork 'em 6,983]

It's also the most boring brand of footy I've seen from Melbourne since I first started watching them in 1990.

I agree but I'll go back to mid 70's.

The Swans were boring, the Saints under Lyon were boring , Freo aswell.

All tarred with the same brush.

Problem now is. we're boring and crap to boot.

Won't be getting too many new members signing up to watch.

Just rusted on masochists like us.

Edited March 23, 2015 by Fork 'em

[Gorgoroth 12,950]

The only major flaw I see with Roos is his persistence with Bail and M Jones. We play with them and we are already behind our opponents.

With M Jones they start with two in the back tackles per game.

[jumbo returns 6,741]

The only major flaw I see with Roos is his persistence with Bail and M Jones. We play with them and we are already behind our opponents.

With M Jones they start with two in the back tackles per game.

It's a massive issue isn't it? I love his run, but that dumbness needs to be eradicated.

[Gorgoroth 12,950]

Yep. His run is great but he is careless and his kicking is iffy too.

[deanox 9,920]

Our bottom 2-6 (depending on injuries) are still a worry.

We have a couple kids who will step up eventually but they aren't there yet.

I must admit I feel another big trade week bringing in 4 more "best 22" players is needed before we truly become a middle of the road team. The challenge is can we show enough improvement this year to attract a couple of those players at the end of the year. Once we get to middle of the road we can join the pack, cycle through and spring board to the top 4 like any team with the right management. But we need to get out of the bottom 4 first and that's what Roos is here for 3 years for.

[beelzebub 23,376]

I think theres a bit of a misconception on here about what anyone wants from the club.

Some get shltty the minute anyone calls into question the results and asks simply...who ?

I dont think anyone's bagging Roos or even suggesting he go or similar its about accountability. The players are accountable to the coach and surely the Coach is accountable to the Club in terms of where or where not it lies especially in terms of progress or when things go awry.

If the team ISNT playing as a team as there are apparently too many I's" out there then who's to be called to be accountable for where the team is ?

Why is the team still doing so many dumbass things ?

I never honestly considered football to be that hard to understand

[T&W 38]

Roos is 100% the man for the job today. His role is more than just coaching. He is setting the foundations for a whole new culture.

[Slartibartfast 17,279]

It's a massive issue isn't it? I love his run, but that dumbness needs to be eradicated.

How big an issue is it?

Again here are some stats comparing Matt Jones and Chris Salem (chosen because few here would question his disposal).

Matt Jones

Freo: 14 disposals, 71.4 DE, 6 Clangers

Foots: 18 disposals, 83.3 DE, 3 Clangers

Esse: 18 disposals, 88.9 DE, 3 Clangers

Chris Salem

Freo: 9 disposals, 88.9 DE, 3 Clangers

Foots: 24 disposals, 79.2 DE, 2 Clangers

Esse: 20 disposals, 70 DE, 4 Clangers.

Comparison:

Salem: 53 disposals, 9 Clangers

Jones: 50 disposals, 12 Clangers

Not sure what you do with DE but it doesn't feel right to add together and divide by 3! Someone can probably help but I reckon (intuitively) MJ has a better DE.

From those stats I'd say Matt Jones disposal issues are overstated. I think he's a lock for round 1.

[beelzebub 23,376]

How big an issue is it?

Again here are some stats comparing Matt Jones and Chris Salem (chosen because few here would question his disposal).

Matt Jones

Freo: 14 disposals, 71.4 DE, 6 Clangers

Foots: 18 disposals, 83.3 DE, 3 Clangers

Esse: 18 disposals, 88.9 DE, 3 Clangers

Chris Salem

Freo: 9 disposals, 88.9 DE, 3 Clangers

Foots: 24 disposals, 79.2 DE, 2 Clangers

Esse: 20 disposals, 70 DE, 4 Clangers.

Comparison:

Salem: 53 disposals, 9 Clangers

Jones: 50 disposals, 12 Clangers

Not sure what you do with DE but it doesn't feel right to add together and divide by 3! Someone can probably help but I reckon (intuitively) MJ has a better DE.

From those stats I'd say Matt Jones disposal issues are overstated. I think he's a lock for round 1.

just to note...what is in reality an effective disposal is very much a dubious notion.

[Slartibartfast 17,279]

just to note...what is in reality an effective disposal is very much a dubious notion.

Yes, but it is for Salem just as it is for Jones. MFC don't take these stats and the blokes that do are unbiased.

So it doesn't matter over a large sample.

[beelzebub 23,376]

Yes, but it is for Salem just as it is for Jones. MFC don't take these stats and the blokes that do are unbiased.

So it doesn't matter over a large sample.

my point is...its irrelevant how large a sample if the stat in question is itself of questionable quality. Its just accepted blindly.