Post Match Discussion - Round 14

[What 18,810]

Once again the opponent has twice as many scoring shots

We still have a long way to go and it all starts in the midfield

Unfortunately I think we have some floggings left in us for the rest of this season. Still gotta play Hawks, Cats, Freo, Port at AO....

[jumbo returns 6,740]

So Watts got a few kicks.....what impressed you the most? The way he took the game on and carved up the opposition? Or was it his hardness and and attack on the footy? Maybe I expect to much from a player who stands at 196cm, checks in at about 90kg's and has a abundance of natural talent. I personally think he could be better than he is currently showing us, and if we sit back as supporters and are content with that I can only hope that the coaches aren't.

I think that Watts has come a long way since the arrival of Roos - he went hard at two or three physical contests and got up and kept going.

You're right about his talent.

He's a damaging player and many sides are wary of him.....he's hard to match up against.

I was tough on him, but credit is due.

[beelzebub 23,313]

The problem as I see it for many is they've unwiittingly moved the goal posts on themselves and now are more greatly disappointed than they really ought to be...Atm that is.

We're not a great team. we've shown glimpses of what might be one day if, IF, we get the RIGHT mix of cattle and get them bodies and bonded together. Currently we DONT have the right mix. Early on this year a lot of us got stuck into the list and gave it a resounding fail with up to 50% by some and generally around 25-33% by most as not being the ideal that we need to go forwards ( and upwards ). Some players have some of whats required but not all. These need to be identified and culled. Replaced by those who have more if not all of the suits come a decent player.

As a guide, make a list of turn over merchants and then consider if they can be 'straightened' or if they simply need trading in. Be honest doing this and some 'favourite' name will appear on that list.

I'll leave further detailed discussion on this possibly to another thread but if we are going to be a hard at it successful team then we have to make some big calls on some guys who quite frankly keep us chained to the bottom.

[Straight Sets Simon 23,113]

I think that part of the problem with all the overuse of the ball is that when a Melbourne has the ball in traffic their first thought was to just handpass. I'd like to see the player with the ball look to burst away for a few steps first to create a bit of space and then look to pass the ball off.

[beelzebub 23,313]

Roos is probably very aware that incursions into the 50 have to be accurate and meaningful atm due to a lack of targets. ( I know they should always be, but good timber make their own luck and puts far more pressure on their defenders. This goes to the ideas of the super trion of gun fwds that never materialised. Get Hogan there and things will improve dramatically giving a greater sense of confidence to the flow of the ball and lessens the need for the current death knell hesitations endemic amongst our lot.

[robbiefrom13 887]

if we are going to be a hard at it successful team then we have to make some big calls on some guys who quite frankly keep us chained to the bottom.

maybe so, but it's not so easy getting those "calls" right. Remember Junior? Pederson? In the former case, it turns out he was more of an anchor; in the latter, the chain has seemingly just dissolved with a little more time in the water...

[beelzebub 23,313]

maybe so, but it's not so easy getting those "calls" right. Remember Junior? Pederson? In the former case, it turns out he was more of an anchor; in the latter, the chain has seemingly just dissolved with a little more time in the water...

I agree.

when God arrived at the club he manifestly stated he would arrive at his own evaluations of players ( his folios ) and not rely too much on supposed reputations.

In the same way he has 'evolved' a few already Im happy to trust his team of experts to pick and choose, but mark my words they will and it might surprise some.

[Vitamin Dee 863]

Poor skills aside, I thought we were taught a very good lesson in two way running and spreading.

We really need to some more quality mids in the team and one or two blistering line breakers. Players in pockets and flankers must have a capacity and ability to run through the midfield otherwise you're exposed.

I thought the decision for Pig Dog as sub was interesting. He did have an impact and I don't mind him at all, however I question 'that type' of player being the sub. I think that perhaps there is greater value in having a fast attacking player that may alter the flow of a game rather than a bollocking type. Understandably, Blease, JKH etc were not ready for a call up, however, that is the type of player than can quickly impact games with only a few possessions.

[AzzKikA 2,371]

Quite simply, no team has 100% perfect players. They have slow players that are in and under that give off to their quick players on the outside, they have players that cannot kick being supported by players that are smart enough to get into a position that suits that player, then there is the players that are feared, and players that are overlooked. We have a side that is increasing these sort attributes and until then we will see displays like Sundays performance or the west coke performance and displays like the win against Carltank, Richmond, Adelaide and the Bombers.

I hate Norf sooooo much, for a side that has won a premiership so recently, where are their supporters?????

[Tyson_Viney_Toumpas 269]

I think all the kids need a spell. Give them a week off/holiday and don't play them at Casey either. Tyson & Viney included. It'll help us in the long term.

For the last part of the year inject youth & the future into the side, theres no better way for Roos' message to get across.

Guys like M Jones, Bail, Terlich, Byrnes to name a few are only short term fixes, Howe is a dumb footballer - we forgive his mistakes because he takes a few high marks, inject the youth and train them up, for some reason Casey is just not working.

So for last couple of months play Toumpas, JKH, Salem, Kent, Barry(see what hes got), Hogan, Tyson, Viney, Gawn, Blease, Michie. We desperately need speed, class & some young guns to run and carry. I'd even consider tinkering with the idea of training Fitzy up as a full back, has 200cm which is handy as the forwards seem to be getting taller, has explosive speed and can jump and take a nice mark.

Anyway its definitely not doom n gloom, we just look a bit tired & our lack of class is still showing, no matter how hard we try.

By the way I think Toumpas is harshly criticised on here, definitely doesn't shy away from contests like a few suggest, also hardly did a thing wrong to be dropped in the first place. He just lacks a bit of confidence and hes not ready for the midfield, hes a wingman/flanker at this stage.

Edited June 22, 2014 by Tyson_Viney_Toumpas

[Satyriconhome 10,731]

I think all the kids need a spell. Give them a week off/holiday and don't play them at Casey either. Tyson & Viney included. It'll help us in the long term.

For the last part of the year inject youth & the future into the side, theres no better way for Roos' message to get across.

Guys like M Jones, Bail, Terlich to name a few are only short term fixes, Howe is a dumb footballer - we forgive his mistakes because he takes a few high marks, inject the youth and train them up, for some reason Casey is just not working.

So for last couple of months play Toumpas, JKH, Salem, Kent, Barry(see what hes got), Hogan, Tyson, Viney, Gawn, Blease. We desperately need speed, class & some young guns to run and carry. I'd even consider tinkering with the idea of training Fitzy up as a full back, has 200cm which is handy as the forwards seem to be getting taller, has explosive speed and can jump and take a nice mark.

Anyway its definitely not doom n gloom, we just look a bit tired & our lack of class is still showing, no matter how hard we try.

By the way I think Toumpas is harshly criticised on here, definitely doesn't shy away from contests like a few suggest, also hardly did a thing wrong to be dropped in the first place. He just lacks a bit of confidence and hes not ready for the midfield, hes a wingman/flanker at this stage.

Listen to Roos' presser, he doesn't agree with you....last week we had a team of world beaters now we have a team of no hopers, marvellous what a loss does, suck it up

[watchtheeyes 1,417]

Those suggesting disinterest or laziness are lacking a bit of perspective in my opinion. They looked tired, I think the intent was there but they just couldn't go with norf in transition and the more it happened, the more fatigued we got and the worse our disposal became. It was a self perpetuating spiral.

Dawes was important but I would love to see him take more contested marks, he has hard hands at times. Someone here also suggested that Watts needs to get behind the ball, I think he is exactly where he needs to be. His class getting the ball inside 50 is critical. He is also working hard to cover some ground and has often been sighted leading to the D50 line to provide an outlet.

I saw something in Riley when he came on today. Reckon skill wise he's limited at this stage but he came on with real intent, defensive forward would be my spot.

I'd give Viney a rest and bring in Michie for him, like for like. I'm ready to give Blease a shot too and think Salem needs a rest. Would also consider giving Toumpas another go but he seems inconsistent at Casey so doubt we'll see him.

Get ready for Nicholson this week, Roos will reward the hard work. Maybe for Bail?

Wouldn't mind Tyson getting a rest too, but it won't happen. For who?

Georgio was apparently good this week... Garland?

[drdrake 3,162]

For how bad we played at the 5 min mark of the third quarter we were a goal down. We stopped for 10mins and the game was over. The difference is we have a dozen players that are consistently good with the the footy in hand, the rest are hit and miss.

What we need to find are those attacking HBF's, I hope that Toumpas can play this role and we find others.

Blease will come in this week for Salem, I still reckon send Frawley back, bring in Gawn and have Pederson as a full time forward

[Tyson_Viney_Toumpas 269]

Saty - WTF?

Firstly, personally I have never thought we have a team of world beaters, last week or any week for that matter. Anyone with half a brain would know we were outplayed last week and were very lucky to win. As I said, we lack class, no matter how hard we try we are going to turn the ball over. I haven't watched the presser yet but I'd be surprised if not at some stage this week Roos would say the kids look tired.

Secondly I'm not whinging about the loss, I couldn't care less too be honest, I've played enough football over the years to understand that things take time, like I said its not all doom n gloom. I still think we have a very poor football team, but our effort has increased this year.

Lastly, I used to enjoy your posts, but you get all sooky when someone attacks you but you are more than happy to dish it out with your narky little attacks and disagreements with people, how about you grow up a fair bit?

Edited June 22, 2014 by Tyson_Viney_Toumpas

[ihatesnakes 22]

I don't know why, but I hate North with a passion.

I just cannot stand that club.

On the upside, Bernie Vince killed them today.

Sadly not much else to say.

Salem to the VFL, kid has no tank.

Not too difficult to work out why you hate North, KDA!

Something like they beat (sometimes slaughter) us every time we play.......

I want the dees to win as well but appreciate good teams playing good football.

[beelzebub 23,313]

Roos lamented our inaccurate kicking, whether it be for 20-30 m set shots or field passing. It killed us

[What 18,810]

we get another crack at North in the final round of the season at Etihad

gonna be a long wait

[Satyriconhome 10,731]

Saty - WTF?

Firstly, personally I have never thought we have a team of world beaters, last week or any week for that matter. Anyone with half a brain would know we were outplayed last week and were very lucky to win. As I said, we lack class, no matter how hard we try we are going to turn the ball over. I haven't watched the presser yet but I'd be surprised if not at some stage this week Roos would say the kids look tired.

Secondly I'm not whinging about the loss, I couldn't care less too be honest, I've played enough football over the years to understand that things take time, like I said its not all doom n gloom. I still think we have a very poor football team, but our effort has increased this year.

Lastly, I used to enjoy your posts, but you get all sooky when someone attacks you but you are more than happy to dish it out with your narky little attacks and disagreements with people, how about you grow up a fair bit?

The point I was making if you bother to read what I wrote, rather than just an attack, is Roos doesn't agree with your opinion, he did say the 'kids' looked tired, he also said players 'in the seconds' will still have to earn games, rather than what I perceived from you to be a typical Demonland knee jerk reaction and get rid of 'young players' and bring more in

Roos doesn't mean physically tired by the way, he means mentally tired, at AFL level, most of the players ability is between the ears

Sook, moi, with something a poster on Demonland wrote...haha...I don't need to grow up, I just don't agree with what you posted and have explained why, comprende?

[Tyson_Viney_Toumpas 269]

You perceived wrong then. It's not a knee jerk reaction, it was just an idea/opinion, I don't need to suck it up as I don't really care what they do. The people in charge know better than all of us put together.

Yes mentally tired, most sports are between the ears, as with life in general. Personally I don't see the value in playing players who aren't part of the future, I'm sure you have a couple of those in mind too?

Anyway for the better of the forum, lets move on. Have a good day!

[La Dee-vina Comedia 16,693]

Disappointing to lose, but the over-reaction to this week's loss pretty much matches the over-reaction to last week's win.

It seemed to me that there was a different gameplan in play yesterday. Gone was the stop-start (but particularly stop) form of play we've been seeing all year, replaced by the attack at all costs mantra. Where were all the kicks backwards, for example? I think the change in style was problematic as players rushed their disposals and missed what looked to be obvious options in doing so. There were so many leads from Bail (particularly first half), Watts and Dawes that were ignored as players rushed to take the first but inferior option.

BUT, while I didn't like the outcome, I did like the change in style. The previous defensive stye is great at keeping us close to the opposition with an occasional win. This style will eventually win more games - but lead to bigger losses when we don't get it right. To me, it's all part of the learning period and I can live with it while I understand the strategy.

[Satyriconhome 10,731]

You perceived wrong then. It's not a knee jerk reaction, it was just an idea/opinion, I don't need to suck it up as I don't really care what they do. The people in charge know better than all of us put together.

Yes mentally tired, most sports are between the ears, as with life in general. Personally I don't see the value in playing players who aren't part of the future, I'm sure you have a couple of those in mind too?

Anyway for the better of the forum, lets move on. Have a good day!

I am sure Roos and his FD have a very good idea on who they want to retain, delist etc, but I am sure he also wants to field the fittest, most in form 22 each week, don't forget the idea is to win, hence my knee jerk comment.

My take on yesterday, we are on a marathon coming from a long way back, yesterday we 'hit the wall', just a matter of running through that mental barrier now

Edited June 23, 2014 by Satyriconhome

[Dr. Gonzo 24,192]

Most of our worst performances this year have come against teams with a man back.

I think Watts and Vince were two who realised you have to stream forward and drag the lose man away and find your targets out of the back 50 but then you have to actually work the play through the middle.

Basic circle work and no run from the backline wont beat a team with a loose man back. Especially when you are getting out run in the midfield and out muscled forward.

Any smart coach will have seen us struggle badly against teams dropping a man back in games against Sydney, St Kilda, Coll and North. We better be prepared for it.

More run from the back half and more skills holding the ball up and spreading it around and across the middle please.

In some ways I'm glad we lost today in a different manner to how we did against Coll and Sydney. Our efforts were better and harder at it in those games but at some stage you only learn so much from that footy. I don't want to be the Bulldogs in 2 years still just playing contested footy and that's it.

I agree 100% about the opponents loose man behind the ball. Yesterday it was clear as day with North dropping 1 or 2 players back in the hole or down the line just waiting for us to turn it over then quickly switch the play to run it down the other side. They worked far harder than us which was basically the difference in the end as they didn't really play better than us just smarter. With them dropping a player back it meant we had more numbers around the contest however we didn't run and spread hard enough to take advantage of this. We would often get the ball at half back, look ahead and see the loose North player and so turn and handball it instead of kick it and turn it over. However then instead of spreading and working through the defense/midfield with handball and hard running we just handballed to static players in a circle of less than 5 metres who were under pressure then ultimately just banged it on the boot down the throat of the loose player we tried to avoid in the first place.

That combined with our terrible turnovers and fumbling was what lost us the game, as well as North roving to Jamar's hitouts better than we did. We really need to work on our disposal coming out of the back half and guys like Grimes and McDonald need to be told to take their first option as when they have too much time to think they inevitably make poor decisions.

The positives I thought were Watts who is playing a more consistent role and obviously Bernie Vince who played his best game for the club.

[jnrmac 20,055]

Go on, P. Do tell.

Agree with everything but the assertion that Jamar was smashed. He towelled up Goldstein, who usually kills us.

Will watch the replay to check your thoughts. You could well be right but I saw Jamar in front most of the time being pushed under the ball. His taps were largely ineffective and aside from one outstanding mark on the members wing thought he was outplayed. Numerous times he has two on one against him particularly with the kick ins which is clearly not his fault but I thought Goldstein had the better of him.

[Bombay Airconditioning 6,359]

Roos in his post match presser said along with Vince, Watts was one of our better players, good enough for you?

No it's not. I'm aloud to have my opinion and Roos is also smart enough to know what Watts could become, but he's not there yet. Being one of the better players in a losing side where most were beaten by their opponent and playing to your full potential on a consistent basis are two different things. Or is what we are seeing now is as good as it gets? Has there been a game yet where Watts not just been in the best players but absolutely dominated it from the outset? For mine Watts is still selective and hesitant at times to take the game on like he should be doing.

[Arrow 1,257]

Will watch the replay to check your thoughts. You could well be right but I saw Jamar in front most of the time being pushed under the ball. His taps were largely ineffective and aside from one outstanding mark on the members wing thought he was outplayed. Numerous times he has two on one against him particularly with the kick ins which is clearly not his fault but I thought Goldstein had the better of him.

There was a moment in the 3rd quarter that summed up their battle.

Dunn was kicking out from FB when Jamar set off on a lead towards the boundary in front of Goldy. By the time the ball travelled the 45 meters, Goldstein had levelled than run straight past Mark, who laid no body contact and took an uncontested mark. Kicked inside 50 resulting in a scoring shot.

He can't play ruck single handedly for a whole game, he just doesn't have the tank.

A great honest battler is Mark, but the mobile and agile young ruckman have gone past him.

FWIW, Goldstein had more possessions, more marks, more tackles, more free kicks and less FK against, he lost the hitouts by 10 but they won the clearances comfortably, particularly in the 3rd quarter when it mattered.