Punters Club fiasco

[Grimes Times 1,278]

A well bred horse who got injured and never raced but showed so called huge potential on the training track is worth more at stud than a well bred horse who couldn't beat the ambulance.

join the dots......

[The Chazz 4,077]

It was mentioned by Andrew Rule on the radio that an infected needle can cause the same types of symptoms as a spider bite. He also said that it's virtually impossible to determine whether it was a spider bite, or an infected needle.

It may or may not have been a spider bite, but either way I don't reckon I'd be telling connections it was anything other than a spider bite.

From my understanding it was the reaction to the treatment that has caused the horse most of its ill health rather than the bite (or needle) itself.

Maybe I'm a bit naive, but I'd be surprised if there was any wrongdoing. I can understand the "timing" of said ill health isn't giving my view much substance!

[Hannibal 5,814]

From my understanding it was the reaction to the treatment that has caused the horse most of its ill health rather than the bite (or needle) itself.

Maybe I'm a bit naive, but I'd be surprised if there was any wrongdoing. I can understand the "timing" of said ill health isn't giving my view much substance!

Or the treatment for the infected needle as opposed to the treatment for a spider bite.

I'm not suggesting any "wrong doing", or that the horse became ill deliberately, just that the spider bite inference may have been convenient. Or not.

[The Chazz 4,077]

Or the treatment for the infected needle as opposed to the treatment for a spider bite.

I'm not suggesting any "wrong doing", or that the horse became ill deliberately, just that the spider bite inference may have been convenient. Or not.

Information that we are not privvy to, such as insurance amounts, would probably tell a bit more of a story, but I'm not involved and won't lose any sleep over it.

I just feel for the horse. If "someone" has used him in this "game", then that's a pretty ordinary way of doing things in my view, but sadly there are people in society that think this is acceptable practice.

If it's from a sheer freak of nature, surviving the spider bite would've been tough enough for him, but suffering from laminitis on top of it is just a terrible thing.

[Whispering_Jack 31,177]

Good point above about bidding at the auction but let's not forget that auctions themselves can be dodgy sometimes.

[Barney Rubble 1,576]

Chippy, interested to know you think that way?

Sure, things like marketing costs, travel & entertainment expenses, etc are a bit of a joke, but these types of syndicates aren't set up for people to make money. Of course the managers/directors will, but it's their business and they are entitled to make an income from it.

$3,500 to say that you've raced 2 or 3 $1m horses with Gai Waterhouse, for some people that's all it is about, and I hope they get enjoyment out of it.

For every critic, there is someone that can see this as a cheap way to experience racehorse ownership. The prospectus clearly states the financials, and I'm sure some people will accept that and still purchase.

I don't know why you think it interesting.

When Gai whose normal slug for training a winner is 10%.

But she gets an additional 5% just for adding her name to it.

Brian Martin Gets a Directors fee of $700k pa.

Plus all the other grabs.

It is down right theft.

[The Chazz 4,077]

I don't know why you think it interesting.

When Gai whose normal slug for training a winner is 10%.

But she gets an additional 5% just for adding her name to it.

Brian Martin Gets a Directors fee of $700k pa.

Plus all the other grabs.

It is down right theft.

Chippy, I have a simple solution for you - don't buy a share!!!

[Redleg 41,962]

Redleg, I do believe I stated that if he won a Group race that his stud fee would be at that value, so not incorrect at all.

It's also the first I've heard of any vet concerns, so I appreciate you informing me of that. It doesn't change my mind a great deal but does give me something to consider. That said, given it was an auction, and other bidders were involved until BC3's winning bid, I question why some of the other bidders weren't concerned by this apparent knee issue.

It's something that we will never know the real truth - I don't claim to know everything about it, none of us can. My initial argument was in regards to dodgy punters clubs as opposed to dodgy syndicators (as per RR's post).

Off topic - must've experienced the highs and lows with Moshe. Had above average ability, shame we didn't get to see the best for him.

Sorry I missed the Group race mention. Probably would need a Group 1 to be at levels you quoted, but if he did that, yes he would stand at that price given his pedigree.

I only got into Moshe after he retired and as stud deal was being arranged. He served 176 last year and I think about 150 this year, to be confirmed, but as I said, he is one sire getting inferior mares and it will be hard, but at least he will have numbers on the ground.

[Sir Why You Little 37,313]

Sorry I missed the Group race mention. Probably would need a Group 1 to be at levels you quoted, but if he did that, yes he would stand at that price given his pedigree.

I only got into Moshe after he retired and as stud deal was being arranged. He served 176 last year and I think about 150 this year, to be confirmed, but as I said, he is one sire getting inferior mares and it will be hard, but at least he will have numbers on the ground.

Moshe has been putting it about over the last 2 years....

[Redleg 41,962]

Moshe has been putting it about over the last 2 years....

He is a lucky boy.

[old55 23,838]

Sorry I missed the Group race mention. Probably would need a Group 1 to be at levels you quoted, but if he did that, yes he would stand at that price given his pedigree.

I only got into Moshe after he retired and as stud deal was being arranged. He served 176 last year and I think about 150 this year, to be confirmed, but as I said, he is one sire getting inferior mares and it will be hard, but at least he will have numbers on the ground.

So Redleg, is that 176 serves x $6.6K/service in a year = $1.161M/year.

If the BC3 stallion got that sort of return it's not terrible even on $5M investment depending on the costs to come out.

Keen for further education please!

[old dee 24,004]

So Redleg, is that 176 serves x $6.6K/service in a year = $1.161M/year.

If the BC3 stallion got that sort of return it's not terrible even on $5M investment depending on the costs to come out.

Keen for further education please!

My understanding is you would need a lot more than $6.6K to recoup your 5 mill.

If the first lot of prodigy cannot run out of sight on a dark night then the figure drops alarmingly.

[Rhino Richards 1,467]

Incorrect.

The horse was vetted at the sales and all vets bar the BC3 one rated the horse high risk and unlikely to race. That was my mail as well, then and now. I was told he would not race because of his knees not the spider bite. That came along later.

As for him going to stud, the fee you suggest for an unraced close relative to a champion is way off the mark.

I have a share in Black Caviar's full brother, not half brother, who actually raced and won twice, looked good but then was retired because of a throat problem. He stood at $6.6k last year his first year.

Unfortunately while a horse can make it on pedigree, without winning, they start at reduced fees and have to breed winners to succeed. It is bloody hard and few do it because the quality of mares they serve is inferior.

Agree with your mail on the horse being assesed as high risk. The spider bite was unfortunate but is not the underlying issue.

I would be keen to understand how in breeding how many services Jimmy would have to make to justify a $5m investment. Also, if there is a structural issue with Jimmy does that further lower his service fee?

[Machsy 2,858]

So now all of Vlahos' paperwork for the punting club was all in the car that was firebombed, and is now destroyed?!

Oh dear!

How terribly convenient.

And how strange that the "heavies" who came to beat him up (but did a soft job) and firebomb his ute, used a petrol can that was already there on site.

How silly of them!

How on earth would they have performed the act if it weren't luckily there?

These brainless (mythical) "heavies" could've gone all the way out to Connewarre for nothing!

So silly to have not planned ahead and brought their own...

Not staged at all.

[Whispering_Jack 31,177]

So Redleg, is that 176 serves x $6.6K/service in a year = $1.161M/year.

If the BC3 stallion got that sort of return it's not terrible even on $5M investment depending on the costs to come out.

Keen for further education please!

At 176 serves a year there would be a lot of horses around keen to join you in getting that further education.

[dee-eee 231]

Anyone that knows a small amount about betting knows you can't get set on most races for a few grand. The dollars that are being bandied about in this saga make it so implausible that I have little regard for people that lost money it.

It is no different to Bernie Madoff. Greed and trusting 'mates' who vouch for the scheme.

So true .The only racing commentator you can trust on this subject is our very own Dee fanatic Dr. Turf ( John Rothfield ) who gets a few mentions in the business pages so obviously doesn't need his media gigs . You only have to regularly break even for some of the most famous bookmaking firms in the world to restrict or even block you .

[Biffen 12,949]

Anyone remember the word Ponzi.

George Soros once said;

"When the tide goes out (i.e a run on the "money")everyone gets to see who isn't wearing any clothes".

[Return to Glory 8,467]

This really does have a touch of the Allen Stanford's about it. I also can't help but think that Jack Watts is behind it all.

[Redleg 41,962]

So Redleg, is that 176 serves x $6.6K/service in a year = $1.161M/year.

If the BC3 stallion got that sort of return it's not terrible even on $5M investment depending on the costs to come out.

Keen for further education please!

It's a bit more complicated.

Stallions that are placed on a stud see a number of free serves being given to the stud for sale by them which is their charge for keeping the horse. Lets say 20 service rights might be the norm. Then stallions don't get every mare in foal, 90% would be a very strong result. Then most stallions are syndicated and the owners of the shares get serves attached to their shares. So after stud service rights, shareholder service rights and negative results are deducted, you may find that only 20-40 serves have been sold and go in the kitty.

The usual selling price of a stallion is calculated on getting money back within 3 seasons. A stallion is at his best price initially in his first season, that is when the magic is there. Often his price drops in his second and depending on what his foals look like, can drop again in the 3rd and then it depends on racetrack performance of progeny.

[Harcourt 146]

Anyone remember the word Ponzi.

George Soros once said;

"When the tide goes out (i.e a run on the "money")everyone gets to see who isn't wearing any clothes".

Warren Buffett?

[Redleg 41,962]

I would be keen to understand how in breeding how many services Jimmy would have to make to justify a $5m investment. Also, if there is a structural issue with Jimmy does that further lower his service fee?

The rule of thumb is that most studs aim to recoup the purchase price of a stallion within 3 years. That is then dependent on how many services can be sold and get a positive result ( pregnancy) and of course the price needed on positive sales to get to $5m.

For an example, if the price was $20k per positive service, you would need about 250 positive sold services over 3 years. That gives you some idea.

Edited December 11, 2013 by Redleg

[Biffen 12,949]

Warren Buffett?

One of those rich bastards said it .

What am i ?

Richprickipedia.

Anyway I thought it pertinent.

Sorry for the inaccuracy.

[John Crow Batty 8,882]

The rule of thumb is that most studs aim to recoup the purchase price of a stallion within 3 years. That is then dependent on how many services can be sold and get a positive result ( pregnancy) and of course the price needed on positive sales to get to $5m.

For an example, if the price was $20k per positive service, you would need about 250 positive sold services over 3 years. That gives you some idea.

5 million left in the bank at 5% interest returns well over $800, 000 in real money over three years. And the news get better and better the next year without raising a sweat. Edited December 11, 2013 by america de cali

[Crompton's the man 660]

So now all of Vlahos' paperwork for the punting club was all in the car that was firebombed, and is now destroyed?!

Oh dear!

How terribly convenient.

And how strange that the "heavies" who came to beat him up (but did a soft job) and firebomb his ute, used a petrol can that was already there on site.

How silly of them!

How on earth would they have performed the act if it weren't luckily there?

These brainless (mythical) "heavies" could've gone all the way out to Connewarre for nothing!

So silly to have not planned ahead and brought their own...

Not staged at all.

Love it !!

Them crooks is so silly

[DemonFrog 1,359]

So now all of Vlahos' paperwork for the punting club was all in the car that was firebombed, and is now destroyed?!

Oh dear!

How terribly convenient.

And how strange that the "heavies" who came to beat him up (but did a soft job) and firebomb his ute, used a petrol can that was already there on site.

How silly of them!

How on earth would they have performed the act if it weren't luckily there?

These brainless (mythical) "heavies" could've gone all the way out to Connewarre for nothing!

So silly to have not planned ahead and brought their own...

Not staged at all.

Some people have such bad luck