Betting market move

[Curry & Beer 5,444]

to state the extremely obvious, Craig's eligibility is unique to the rest since he is actually at the helm for another 9 matches. Come round 22 it should abundantly clear if he is the man for us or not, the others are all mystery bets really

[The Chazz 4,077]

If his hart not in coaching the MFC should not get Roos

Not a fan of Williams think I rather have Mark Neeld back, only joking.

Neil Craig is clearly the best choice for a Senior Coach, he here and knows the players and does not talk BS.

Froggy, I'm quite over this "if his heart is not in it" talk.

At the current time, Neil Craig would be the only one that is 100% in it. Eade and Williams both have other employment obligations, so there's no way they could say that their heart is 100% in it. The only thing that either have said is that they have a desire to coach at senior level again. I would ask are they just interested in the MFC gig because it's the only one available at this stage?

Eade and Williams will be waiting until their season finishes before they decide if their heart is in it. Roos is waiting to see changes at the Club before he fully commits.

[Grand New Flag 3,226]

Froggy, I'm quite over this "if his heart is not in it" talk.

At the current time, Neil Craig would be the only one that is 100% in it. Eade and Williams both have other employment obligations, so there's no way they could say that their heart is 100% in it. The only thing that either have said is that they have a desire to coach at senior level again. I would ask are they just interested in the MFC gig because it's the only one available at this stage?

Eade and Williams will be waiting until their season finishes before they decide if their heart is in it. Roos is waiting to see changes at the Club before he fully commits.

I totally agree, I also think that Roos is holding out to see what sort of assistance the AFL will dish out to the MFC. I can confirm that the AFL is very keen on Roos coaching us. He is the AFLs choice. IF the AFL want a strong MFC, that becomes self sufficient then rapid on-field improvement combined with a high profile coach and President is required. No team can afford to be cellar dwellers for 7 consecutive seasons.

Other teams and supporters will hate that we will be rewarded for breathtaking incompetence. No we do not deserve help, our pain is very much self inflicted. However, for the strength of the competition, no team can be as redundant as the MFC for such a long period. It costs the entire competition and the AFL. The competition desperately needs to become more even, the introduction of the new teams combined with free agency have created a 2 tier competition. This is very unhealthy and weakens the competition and brand badly. The AFL know this. I am certain that over the coming years the AFL will go to great lengths to re-even the competition. I expect that other 2nd tier teams will also be rewarded for failure in the coming years. The AFL have stated that they do not want to create a EPL situation where the premiership is always and only split between the biggest 5 clubs. I hate socialism but it is required in the AFL for the health of our sport.

Edited July 3, 2013 by Grand New Flag

[beelzebub 22,244]

Take a deep breath all. You just have to wait. Xmas is like that. It wont come before its due nor will any decisions and appointments.

[nutbean 8,837]

It's a game off-field as well as on-field.

Until a coach says - definitely not interested or I wont be going anywhere next season or I wont coach again then it is all a game.

[rpfc 27,589]

I totally agree, I also think that Roos is holding out to see what sort of assistance the AFL will dish out to the MFC. I can confirm that the AFL is very keen on Roos coaching us. He is the AFLs choice. IF the AFL want a strong MFC, that becomes self sufficient then rapid on-field improvement combined with a high profile coach and President is required. No team can afford to be cellar dwellers for 7 consecutive seasons.

Other teams and supporters will hate that we will be rewarded for breathtaking incompetence. No we do not deserve help, our pain is very much self inflicted. However, for the strength of the competition, no team can be as redundant as the MFC for such a long period. It costs the entire competition and the AFL. The competition desperately needs to become more even, the introduction of the new teams combined with free agency have created a 2 tier competition. This is very unhealthy and weakens the competition and brand badly. The AFL know this. I am certain that over the coming years the AFL will go to great lengths to re-even the competition. I expect that other 2nd tier teams will also be rewarded for failure in the coming years. The AFL have stated that they do not want to create a EPL situation where the premiership is always and only split between the biggest 5 clubs. I hate socialism but it is required in the AFL for the health of our sport.

I agree, and can I just pick on one thing:

Every team's "pain" is self inflicted.

Does anyone think that the Bulldogs never-ever-ever deciding to replenish their forward line properly after Johnson and Hall left is hurting them? They will need Draft Assistance soon.

Does anyone think the Saints trading away picks for role players and constantly topping up during Lyon's years hurt them? They will need Draft Assistance soon.

We had the ignominy of picking the wrong 18 year olds.

Forget this 'ruined our kids with bad development' spiel the media has brought up. It may be a small issue but nothing turns Morton into Dangerfield, nothing turns Molan into Riewoldt.

Our recruiters misfired, and Daniher went searching for a flag.

That is why we are where we are.

None of that is reason for the kind of animosity some have shown toward us getting Draft Assistance.

We are in a socialised competition and we are crap, we should receive some assistance and I will be disappointed in Jackson if he cannot secure it.

Edited July 3, 2013 by rpfc

[DeeSpencer 23,256]

I agree, and can I just pick on one thing:

Every team's "pain" is self inflicted.

Does anyone think that the Bulldogs never-ever-ever deciding to replenish their forward line properly after Johnson and Hall left is hurting them? They will need Draft Assistance soon.

Does anyone think the Saints trading away picks for role players and constantly topping up during Lyon's years hurt them? They will need Draft Assistance soon.

We had the ignominy of picking the wrong 18 year olds.

Forget this 'ruined our kids with bad development' spiel the media has brought up. It may be a small issue but nothing turns Morton into Dangerfield, nothing turns Molan into Riewoldt.

Our recruiters misfired, and Daniher went searching for a flag.

That is why we are where we are.

None of that is reason for the kind of animosity some have shown toward us getting Draft Assistance.

We are in a socialised competition and we are crap, we should receive some assistance and I will be disappointed in Jackson if he cannot secure it.

I agree with most of what you said but I disagree a lot with the development not being an issue or only a small one.

Morton, Maric, Blease, Strauss, Gysberts, Tapscott, Cook. All drafted inside the top 22 picks and all given us nothing. They couldn't all be wrong. A lot of them were probably drafted too high. A lot of those were 3rd round picks with attributes that we though would make them stars but overlooked their flaws. Certainly development has been a massive issue of this lot. Changing coaches probably hurt them as well as changing focus. 2 in Blease and Tapscott got drafted as forwards then developed as defenders then back to forward. 2 had serious broken legs. Morton was played all over the shop although I agree he just isn't very good. Maric was drafted as a small forward and continually asked to play up the ground which didn't suit him.

[rpfc 27,589]

I agree with most of what you said but I disagree a lot with the development not being an issue or only a small one.

Morton, Maric, Blease, Strauss, Gysberts, Tapscott, Cook. All drafted inside the top 22 picks and all given us nothing. They couldn't all be wrong. A lot of them were probably drafted too high. A lot of those were 3rd round picks with attributes that we though would make them stars but overlooked their flaws. Certainly development has been a massive issue of this lot. Changing coaches probably hurt them as well as changing focus. 2 in Blease and Tapscott got drafted as forwards then developed as defenders then back to forward. 2 had serious broken legs. Morton was played all over the shop although I agree he just isn't very good. Maric was drafted as a small forward and continually asked to play up the ground which didn't suit him.

This sounds like you agree with me.

Development is an issue but it is dwarfed by recruitment.

Morton, Maric, Gysberts, and Cook were too slight or lazy or both. Strauss was a bit of a reach (picked ahead of where he should have been) and Tapscott and Blease have been ruined so far by hip and leg injuries respectively.

But Morton, Gysberts and Cook were all top 12 picks that were utter failures that cannot be left at the feet of development.

We picked the wrong teenagers.

In no way should we buy into the meme that because we picked the wrong teenagers we don't require help to get out of our current mire.

[The Chazz 4,077]

This sounds like you agree with me.

Development is an issue but it is dwarfed by recruitment.

Morton, Maric, Gysberts, and Cook were too slight or lazy or both. Strauss was a bit of a reach (picked ahead of where he should have been) and Tapscott and Blease have been ruined so far by hip and leg injuries respectively.

But Morton, Gysberts and Cook were all top 12 picks that were utter failures that cannot be left at the feet of development.

We picked the wrong teenagers.

In no way should we buy into the meme that because we picked the wrong teenagers we don't require help to get out of our current mire.

My opinion, and I will be laughed out of town, is that you could put Morton in that category of "Club Development Issues".

He played enough games early in his career to suggest that he could be a decent player, even when we flogged Sydney is 2010 and he played on Goodes showed he had ability (sure, Goodes kicked 4, but I think Cale kicked 2 and I wouldn't say he was defeated by Goodes. Think the same happened in a game in Canberra too from memory).

Fire away...

[deanox 8,705]

Regarding development, some of the players like watts and Blease have now had 4 coaches in 4 years. That alone must be difficult for development, each coach wants a different game plan, players need pace or endurance, strength or speed. Playing forward or back etc. These changes disrupt development.

Add to that the lack of senior mentoring, the lack of culture (regardless of whether ours was bad, it wasn't amazing like Sydney and Geelong), second rate coaches (again not bad but not premiership elite coaches) and lack of facilities and funding (which has now been overcome). Add in perception of tanking and the impact that has on players personally plus off-field drama.

I think player development had suffered due to a combination of all these things. I don't think it's fair to blame any particular individual or reason for lack of development.

I think we are now on the right track. Coaching is obviously an issue which we are currently addressing but get that right, combined with some footy dept and off-field stability and hopefully another experienced midfielder for mentoring purposes and we'll see marked improvement in development.

[rpfc 27,589]

My opinion, and I will be laughed out of town, is that you could put Morton in that category of "Club Development Issues".

He played enough games early in his career to suggest that he could be a decent player, even when we flogged Sydney is 2010 and he played on Goodes showed he had ability (sure, Goodes kicked 4, but I think Cale kicked 2 and I wouldn't say he was defeated by Goodes. Think the same happened in a game in Canberra too from memory).

Fire away...

Look, it's a hypothetical. It is not an objective fact either way.

With that said - we will have some analysis to make in a couple years was he has gone to the Eagles which outsiders see as a veritable stable of player development.

For me he is stick of a wingman in a game where where the wing has been eaten by rotations and is now a dormant position (not extinct as Richo showed a few years ago).

A hypothetical scenario I would love is to see how we would have gone with developing Dangerfield. I don't think he would be the Ricciuto clone he is at the Crows but he would have been a very good player for us.

I really only see development helping around the edges - refining talent, not exposing it.

Polishing the diamond in the rough, not turning the coal briquette into a diamond.

[DemonOX 8,541]

No team can afford to be cellar dwellers for 7 consecutive years.

Mate hate to break it to u but this is our 7 year of being shite aka cellar dwellers.

[Webber 10,178]

I totally agree, I also think that Roos is holding out to see what sort of assistance the AFL will dish out to the MFC. I can confirm that the AFL is very keen on Roos coaching us. He is the AFLs choice. IF the AFL want a strong MFC, that becomes self sufficient then rapid on-field improvement combined with a high profile coach and President is required. No team can afford to be cellar dwellers for 7 consecutive seasons. Other teams and supporters will hate that we will be rewarded for breathtaking incompetence. No we do not deserve help, our pain is very much self inflicted. However, for the strength of the competition, no team can be as redundant as the MFC for such a long period. It costs the entire competition and the AFL. The competition desperately needs to become more even, the introduction of the new teams combined with free agency have created a 2 tier competition. This is very unhealthy and weakens the competition and brand badly. The AFL know this. I am certain that over the coming years the AFL will go to great lengths to re-even the competition. I expect that other 2nd tier teams will also be rewarded for failure in the coming years. The AFL have stated that they do not want to create a EPL situation where the premiership is always and only split between the biggest 5 clubs. I hate socialism but it is required in the AFL for the health of our sport.

You say you hate socialism GNF, but it is required for the health of our sport. Is this because it works specifically to address the ills that exist when you create "haves" and "have nots"?. If this were reflected in society, which aspect of socialism as a principle do you 'hate'?

[Binmans PA 26,292]

My opinion, and I will be laughed out of town, is that you could put Morton in that category of "Club Development Issues".

He played enough games early in his career to suggest that he could be a decent player, even when we flogged Sydney is 2010 and he played on Goodes showed he had ability (sure, Goodes kicked 4, but I think Cale kicked 2 and I wouldn't say he was defeated by Goodes. Think the same happened in a game in Canberra too from memory).

Fire away...

I was at that game in Canberra. Morton was superb on Goodes. Killed him.

I can see where you're coming from with this, Billy, but it seems reasonably clear Cale's greatest weakness is psychological.

[nutbean 8,837]

I was at that game in Canberra. Morton was superb on Goodes. Killed him.

I can see where you're coming from with this, Billy, but it seems reasonably clear Cale's greatest weakness is psychological.

Cant agree on Morton - lots of footballer have shown a bit and then not gone anywhere and Morton is just one more.

I lean towards RPFC saying we have picked badly but would top that up with the statement that we didnt develop some footballers to bring out the best of their ability. A culture of demanding the best brings out the best. However no amount of demanding would bring anything like acceptable levels on some of our picks.

[Binmans PA 26,292]

Cant agree on Morton - lots of footballer have shown a bit and then not gone anywhere and Morton is just one more.

I lean towards RPFC saying we have picked badly but would top that up with the statement that we didnt develop some footballers to bring out the best of their ability. A culture of demanding the best brings out the best. However no amount of demanding would bring anything like acceptable levels on some of our picks.

That's true.

Concur with you and rpfc on the second point too, nutbean.

[deanox 8,705]

Lots of second rate football's have stepped up to be a quality part of a great team and culture but struggled at other clubs as well.

Morton, at a strong club could have got the confidence he needed to go with his strengths: endurance and kicking. He may not have either but he was rated top 3 or 4 that year and want a mistake like Molan.

[Curry & Beer 5,444]

Morton, Maric, Blease, Strauss, Gysberts, Tapscott, Cook. All drafted inside the top 22 picks and all given us nothing.

I know an alarming number of posters love to exaggerate how carp we are, for some bizarre reason, but you've named 7 players, only 4 of whom are 'busts' (at least at this stage). They come from 4 drafting periods, and 3 of them from the late-first/early-second round area. It is not good, but no as horrendous as most like to make out. The real issue is the fact that the ones at the pointy end of the draft don't seem to become genuine league stars, at least not yet.

[jnrmac 19,147]

Lots of second rate football's have stepped up to be a quality part of a great team and culture but struggled at other clubs as well.

Morton, at a strong club could have got the confidence he needed to go with his strengths: endurance and kicking. He may not have either but he was rated top 3 or 4 that year and want a mistake like Molan.

Morton and Gysberts haven't played games for their new clubs. So yep they are tearing it up.

[deanox 8,705]

Morton and Gysberts haven't played games for their new clubs. So yep they are tearing it up.

Yeah they aren't. I'm not sure if your taking a shot at me or not, if you are I don't understand why.

After 4 or 5 years with us I don't expect Morton would move to another club and tear it up immediately or possibly ever. The kid was developed poorly in all of physically (fitness), mentally (ie how to play footy) and psychologically (ie confidence).

I'm also not saying he would be a superstar if he went there originally. But at under 18 level there was enough to think he could make a good footballer.

[Barney Rubble 1,576]

Blease, Strauss and Morton had serious leg problems

Blease and Strauss had serious leg breaks.

Morton didn't have legs he had match sticks

[rpfc 27,589]

Yeah they aren't. I'm not sure if your taking a shot at me or not, if you are I don't understand why.

After 4 or 5 years with us I don't expect Morton would move to another club and tear it up immediately or possibly ever. The kid was developed poorly in all of physically (fitness), mentally (ie how to play footy) and psychologically (ie confidence).

I'm also not saying he would be a superstar if he went there originally. But at under 18 level there was enough to think he could make a good footballer.

I refuse to believe we have 'ruined' Morton to the extent you imply.

We took Frawley the previous draft to Morton and we developed him into an AA defender.

He was a tall rake winger who didn't get any better than he was at 18. He was chosen before he should have been.

Edited July 3, 2013 by rpfc

[What 18,810]

Morton was the worst pick I have ever seen

pick 4 on the softest player to come through the draft in forever

[deanox 8,705]

I refuse to believe we have 'ruined' Morton to the extent you imply.

We took Frawley the previous draft to Morton and we developed him into an AA defender.

He was a tall rake winger who didn't get any better than he was at 18. He was chosen before he should have been.

You make some good arguments regarding the topic of player department.

Maybe I'm coming across as suggesting Mortons development was all our fault; I don't believe that. He didn't make it and that's on him as much as it is on is. He didn't live up to his promise for whatever reason. We probably didn't nurture him through some of those issues though - he struggled with confidence and got lost on the field in his last couple of years with us, seemingly not knowing what to do. I heard that he just didn't follow instructions ie would be told to position somewhere but would constantly run to a different spot. If he truly struggled with that sort of learning then that is why his development stalled (based on rumour not on my personal experience).

Frawley, and Jones and other successful players at Melbourne, may have more mental toughness or self motivation or football IQ or dedication thus are more successful than those who don't. Maybe Morton would have worked elsewhere, maybe not.

[Pennant St Dee 11,351]

Morton and Gysberts haven't played games for their new clubs. So yep they are tearing it up.

Morton is struggling at WAFL level for East Perth and IAH should be dropped to the magoos but the fact they are an aligned club to Meth Coast may be saving him