Top Heavy

[Pates 9,625]

I am and have been a fan of Jamar in the past, he has been pursued many times by better clubs looking for a ruckman and he has always said he wanted to repay the faith. Having said all that, I wonder whether he'd be open to a trade to a club that is likely to play finals next year. His currency won't be huge but as a ready-to-go ruckman I think there would be sides keen on having a look at him.

I do feel we need senior players still around at the club, and I don't want us to treat another good servant poorly, but we are quite well stocked with ruckman. Saturday night showed that at the moment Gawn isn't ready for the no. 1 mantle, but next year after a pre-season and conditioning he may well have the tank to better run out games. We will also have Clark and Dawes who can chop out at times (mainly around the ground), and Fitzy has shown much more than I expected in the last few games he's played (although I don't know if he has the body to ruck at AFL level).

For me I think we need to either move on Spencer or Jamar, and given Max's development it might be better to move Mark on to a finals bound club. But I will say this, if he wants to stay and isn't interested in going elsewhere then I think we leave it at that. I would like him to exit the club on good terms and if that can't happen in a mutually beneficial way then we keep him to mentor Max, and we move Spencer on.

[Chook 14,997]

I am and have been a fan of Jamar in the past, he has been pursued many times by better clubs looking for a ruckman and he has always said he wanted to repay the faith. Having said all that, I wonder whether he'd be open to a trade to a club that is likely to play finals next year. His currency won't be huge but as a ready-to-go ruckman I think there would be sides keen on having a look at him.

I do feel we need senior players still around at the club, and I don't want us to treat another good servant poorly, but we are quite well stocked with ruckman. Saturday night showed that at the moment Gawn isn't ready for the no. 1 mantle, but next year after a pre-season and conditioning he may well have the tank to better run out games. We will also have Clark and Dawes who can chop out at times (mainly around the ground), and Fitzy has shown much more than I expected in the last few games he's played (although I don't know if he has the body to ruck at AFL level).

For me I think we need to either move on Spencer or Jamar, and given Max's development it might be better to move Mark on to a finals bound club. But I will say this, if he wants to stay and isn't interested in going elsewhere then I think we leave it at that. I would like him to exit the club on good terms and if that can't happen in a mutually beneficial way then we keep him to mentor Max, and we move Spencer on.

I reckon Jamar is a good enough ruck coach that we should keep him regardless of his onfield perormance.

[binman 41,948]

Spencer should be moved on. He has good aggression at the ball but that's it. He struggles to make an impact.

Sorry to put gloom on a guy who played a good game on the weekend but Fitzpatrick is a spud.I dont think he should be retained.I hope he continues his form but cant see it happening.

Its funny how people can watch the same games and come to different conclusions. I rate both Fitzy and Spencer highly, with Fitzy being a better prospect. He was terrific on the weekend, two clutch goals - one a banana from the boundary near the 50 meter arc and the other putting the jets on and running away from the chaser. He also took some great marks, the one down low being the best and at a crucial time. reports from Casey have been that he has been terrific for them this year.

As fro Spencer i agree with another posters view that he shows great intensity, is surprisingly quick and puts in. Still improvement there so who knows what the ceiling might be. Both definite keepers as is Gawn. As for Jamar a keeper unless a good trade that gives us a mid can be worked out.

[Scoop Junior 3,395]

I think four 6"4+ forwards in the forward line is too tall. Some teams only play with two tall forwards.

If Watts is to stay forward, then subject to the status of his footy injury I would look to play Clark in the ruck. He is mobile, athletic and a good mover around the ground. He was close to being an AA ruckmen at Brisbane. With his mobility and ability I think he can be a real presence around the ground and win a fair bit of footy.

A forward line of Watts, Hogan and Dawes has enough height and marking power. Throw Howe into the mix and I don't think you'd want to play another tall down there. Clark is obviously a brilliant forward but of all our tall forwards he is the best equipped to play in the ruck.

Howe would hopefully rotate a bit through the midfield as well (perhaps in a Brett Burton type roll) and then you'd probably want two smalls, perhaps one being a specialist small forward (a player type we currently don't have) and the other a midfielder who can play forward.

I'd have another ruckman on the bench with that set-up. I think playing 8 talls (three KP defenders, three KP forwards, two ruckmen), 3 medium/small defenders, 1 specialist small forward and 10 blokes who can rotate through the midfield is a fairly good balance. Alternatively you could go with 7 talls, with one of your KP forwards being the back-up ruckman.

But things do change quickly in this environment in relation to tactics, form and injuries so no plans can be 100% concrete.

[deeko 952]

I reckon Jamar is a good enough ruck coach that we should keep him regardless of his onfield perormance.

Agreed, have heard him speak before and he comes across like a very switched on fellow. Was very impressed.

I think he will have a bit to prove when he is back amongst it this year. I believe him being dropped from the leadership group hurt more than most realise.

Also, I would love to keep a veteran on our list who has been there since the beginning and have them leave on there own terms instead of how we have been handling players over the last decade.

Gawn should go past him next year and it would be fantastic if that happens but I still want the Rush there as he is great backup and leader to Maximus.

As for Spencer & Fitzy it's great they are starting to show a bit and going forward I hope they show a bit for another team in exchange for a couple picks upgrades or up and coming mids not getting a look in at another club.

[rpfc 28,048]

I don't want to play Clark in the ruck. We may have to, but I don't know if his body is going to be able to take that.

Watts isn't a CHF, Dawes isn't a CHF, Howe isn't a CHF, Hogan should not be forced to play CHF for a few years.

Gawn as back-up ruck in the pocket, Dawes as FF, Hogan on a flank, Howe on a wing/HFF, Watts on a wing/HFF, and Clark at CHF is the only way I can think to fit them all in.

Fitz has little chance.

*SMALL FWD* Dawes Gawn+

Watts/Howe# Clark Hogan

#Rotation through wing

+Backup for Jamar or Spencer

And this set-up still looks a bit heavy and slow. Watts might fetch us a good young mid if he continues his form of late. It would be aruthless decision but one that we may benefit both parties.

[DemonWA 3,884]

I think our list is general is 'top heavy'

I cant see the need to have all of Sellar, Davis & Pederson on the list next year. davis or Sellar will be moved on

Same with the forward line. I can see Fitzy being a possible trade target from other clubs. He's got all of the tools, and i actually would like to keep him, but we just dont have room for all of these guys in the team and i think he's going to be too good to be happy as a VFL player who only gets a gig when we are plagued by injury

[inanunda 342]

I think our list is general is 'top heavy'

I cant see the need to have all of Sellar, Davis & Pederson on the list next year. davis or Sellar will be moved on

Same with the forward line. I can see Fitzy being a possible trade target from other clubs. He's got all of the tools, and i actually would like to keep him, but we just dont have room for all of these guys in the team and i think he's going to be too good to be happy as a VFL player who only gets a gig when we are plagued by injury

I would rather move on Jamar than Fitzy. Jamar is going backwards and offers nothing around the ground besides the hit-outs.

[old dee 23,491]

I think our list is general is 'top heavy'

I cant see the need to have all of Sellar, Davis & Pederson on the list next year. davis or Sellar will be moved on

Same with the forward line. I can see Fitzy being a possible trade target from other clubs. He's got all of the tools, and i actually would like to keep him, but we just dont have room for all of these guys in the team and i think he's going to be too good to be happy as a VFL player who only gets a gig when we are plagued by injury

I would rather keep Fitzy that all the three you have named.

The staggering thing demonWA is we are stuck with Pedersen for another three years.

he makes you know who look good

[Scoop Junior 3,395]

I don't want to play Clark in the ruck. We may have to, but I don't know if his body is going to be able to take that.

Watts isn't a CHF, Dawes isn't a CHF, Howe isn't a CHF, Hogan should not be forced to play CHF for a few years.

Gawn as back-up ruck in the pocket, Dawes as FF, Hogan on a flank, Howe on a wing/HFF, Watts on a wing/HFF, and Clark at CHF is the only way I can think to fit them all in.

Fitz has little chance.

*SMALL FWD* Dawes Gawn+

Watts/Howe# Clark Hogan

#Rotation through wing

+Backup for Jamar or Spencer

And this set-up still looks a bit heavy and slow. Watts might fetch us a good young mid if he continues his form of late. It would be aruthless decision but one that we may benefit both parties.

I don't think we would want to set up like that. Too tall.

You might have four talls down there every now and then for tactical reasons but for the vast majority of the time I think having Gawn, Dawes, Clark, Hogan plus one of Watts and Howe is way too top heavy.

[Machsy 2,858]

I'd have said the same about Josh Kennedy, Jack Darling, Quinten Lynch and Dean Cox/Naitanui, but it worked for West Coast last year.

Albeit unorthodox.

[FarNorthernD 5,861]

Great point. Jack b***** Hannath would have been perfect. I think we might regret not picking him up as much as we regret ignoring Nev Jetta's mum's tip about Lewis. And wasn't there someone else who trained with us who we didn't pick up who has since done well? Was it Rockliff?

To pick up Hannath we would have had to use one of our last picks in the main draft. Given that both Terlich (No. 68) and Matt Jones (No. 52) would easily be in the top ten in the bluey at the moment which one would you have not selected?

Edited July 1, 2013 by fndee

[Little Richard 6,213]

Spencer should be moved on. He has good aggression at the ball but that's it. He struggles to make an impact.

Sorry to put gloom on a guy who played a good game on the weekend but Fitzpatrick is a spud.I dont think he should be retained.I hope he continues his form but cant see it happening.

Jamar Should be kept as number one and Gawny to learn his trade under him.

Otherwise use Jamar for tradebait..he will give us a good return trade somewhere for something.

He only has a couple of years left does the ol Jamar..maybe its worth the trade??!!

So if we are getting rid of Spencer, Fitz and Jamar, are we expecting Gawn to hold down the ruck duties alone for the next ten years?

I don't know how you come to the conclusion that Fitzy is a spud after he has played the best of his 7 (just seven) games at the top level and has dominated at VFL for so long. His development for such a young ruckman is going very well.

We should definitely jettison Spencer however if Spencer is retained and Fitzy keeps up his good form, he (Fitz) could be useful trade bait.

[MadAsHell 4,209]

I reckon our setup next year will be:

Ruck: Jamar, 1st alternate Gawn, 2nd alternate Spencer

2nd Ruck/Forward: Clark, depth Fitzpatrick

Stay at Home key Forwards (FF/CHF): Dawes, Hogan

Utilities (HF/Wing/HBF): Watts, Howe

Reckon you'll find if Jamar were to miss Gawn or Spencer would get a run and if Clark were to miss Fitzy would get a go. However if one of Hogan or Dawes were to miss another midfielder would just come in and both Watts and Howe would play forward wothout the need for onr of them to spend sometime on a wing or half back.

[pm24 451]

I don't think we need to move on any of them because Jamar will probably retire in a season or two.

Unless there is a superb ruck prospect available in the draft or elsewhere, I think it is best for us to keep all four. Gawn, Spencer and Fitzy are all still young and would arguably contribute more than a rookie ruckman, plus with Jamar turning 30 next month, he probably has 2 seasons left in him, at which time Gawn will have been established as a No.1 ruckmen with Spencer the back-up and Fitzy the fwd/relief ruck. Not to mention Clarke (if he ever plays again).

We can still bring another ruck through the Rookie List (which we were obviously considering with our preparation to draft Jack Hannath). No need to drop any of the younger ruckmen just yet. Only move them if we get a good trade offer.

[H_T 3,032]

I'd rookie another ruck.

I only see Jamar, Gawn and Spencer as #1 rucks. Jamar may not have much left, while Spencer seems unlikely to become a very good AFL ruckman.

Dawes has said he doesn't want to ruck at all, while Clark looks good as a key forward - when he's not injured - and I think he would only pinch hit at most. Fitzpatrick wants to be a KPF/second ruck and I hope that pans out.

Agree, I like the way Gawn contested against Minson, even though he may have tired late when Minson and his team were lifting.

Agree with Django's take here:

It's not really that we are top heavy but have a number of good talls to choose from. The fact that we have barely any midfielders to rub together makes it look more so.

[DemonWA 3,884]

I would rather keep Fitzy that all the three you have named.

The staggering thing demonWA is we are stuck with Pedersen for another three years.

he makes you know who look good

Unfortunatley, the way i see it we need to keep one or two of Sellar, Davis and Pederson for insurance incase Frawley, Tom McDonald or Garland get injured

[Jaded No More 67,641]

I don't think we would want to set up like that. Too tall.

You might have four talls down there every now and then for tactical reasons but for the vast majority of the time I think having Gawn, Dawes, Clark, Hogan plus one of Watts and Howe is way too top heavy.

I guess it depends if you think Watts is actually a tall forward. He is much better on the lead and off the ground than he is above his head.

If anything, I'd love to play him as a half foward and have him push up. For one, you want him delivering the ball inside 50, plus he can pick it up off the deck closer to goal. Neither he nor Howe are true tall forwards.

My ideal set up would be Clark CHF (he could do the ruck up forward, but I'm worried his body can't handle centre square rucking), Hogan FF, and Dawes and Watts on each flank. Which does leave 1 spot for Howe to rotate in and out of and alternate with a mid (perhaps Blease or Tapscott if they get their sh*t together), plus 1 true small forward/crumber which we need to draft or trade for. Like Davey in his younger years.

Of course if Clark isn't able to do some ruck relief, than we are too tall because you have to go into a game with 2 proper ruckman, which is a problem. So in an ideal world, you'd want a Max Gawn as 1st ruck and Clark as relief. We know Clark can ruck really well, and I'd be all over that option if his foot wasn't stuffed. I suppose time will tell, and a lot does hinge on his recovery going forward.

[old dee 23,491]

Unfortunatley, the way i see it we need to keep one or two of Sellar, Davis and Pederson for insurance incase Frawley, Tom McDonald or Garland get injured

I understand, I just cannot get out of my mind that we gave Pedersen three years.

It would seem a tragedy to me if we kept Pedersen because he has two years contract left.

All things being equal I would keep Sellar of that trio He has played some useful games, Davis cannot kick and they clearly don't consider he is good enough after 2.5 years on our list without one game.

[MadAsHell 4,209]

Unfortunatley, the way i see it we need to keep one or two of Sellar, Davis and Pederson for insurance incase Frawley, Tom McDonald or Garland get injured

Yeah Pedersen's role is certainly depth in the defensive tall man department. I reckon only 1 of Davis, Gillies & Sellar who are all out of contract at years end will survive tops.

Sellar may survive given his ability to chop out in the ruck.

[mog 58]

To pick up Hannath we would have had to use one of our last picks in the main draft. Given that both Terlich (No. 68) and Matt Jones (No. 52) would easily be in the top ten in the bluey at the moment which one would you have not selected?

Gillies

[old dee 23,491]

Yeah Pedersen's role is certainly depth in the defensive tall man department. I reckon only 1 of Davis, Gillies & Sellar who are all out of contract at years end will survive tops.

Sellar may survive given his ability to chop out in the ruck.

That makes it easy TD

Sellar is the one that has shown a bit

Davis cannot get a game and Gillies well do I need to say any more.

Edited July 1, 2013 by old dee

[ignition. 1,454]

2013 statistics (avg / game, exc. goals):GM = Games, G = Goals total, H = Hitouts, D = Disposals, M = Marks, T = Tackles.

Jamar (R1): Age: 29 yr 10 m, Height: 198 cm, Weight: 101 kg.

GM 9, G 2, H 33.1, D 8.1, M 2.3, T 3.1.

Shouldn't even consider trading him, he committed to the club as the club did to him. If things are to turn around the club must show loyalty to its mature players and set a good example. He will also aid the development of the younger ruckman.

Spencer (R2): Age: 23 yr 8 m, Height: 203 cm, Weight: 103 kg.

GM 3, G 0, H 24.3, D 10.7, M 3.7, T 1.7.

Spencer isn't as bad as some consider, he runs down tackles and can hold his own in the ruck. He adds depth to the ruck stocks and is currently ahead of Gawn (in "rucking").

Gawn (R3): Age: 21 yr 6 m, Height: 208 cm, Weight: 111 kg.

GM 7, G 7, H 14.6, D 8.7, M 3.0, T 2.1.

I really like Gawn I think in time he will become a real beauty and most likely acquire the number 1 ruck spot.

Fitzpatrick (R4): Age: 22 yr 0 m, Height: 200 cm, Weight: 99 kg.

GM 4, G 3, H 7.2, D 11.5, M 4.8, T 1.2.

If any of the ruckman have their heads on the chopping block it would be this guy. I rate the other three ahead of him as rucks and majority of his time has been spent in the forward line, so with the inclusion of Hogan next year I can't see much room for him in the best 22.

On another note I have also noticed others mention we should draft a ruckman and develop them, in relation to drafting a ruckman I would only do so from the open age categories (mens) unless if a steal was to come up at a later pick like last year with Brodie Grundy to Collingwood at pick 18.

[angrydee 842]

I don't think we need to move on any of them because Jamar will probably retire in a season or two.

Unless there is a superb ruck prospect available in the draft or elsewhere, I think it is best for us to keep all four. Gawn, Spencer and Fitzy are all still young and would arguably contribute more than a rookie ruckman, plus with Jamar turning 30 next month, he probably has 2 seasons left in him, at which time Gawn will have been established as a No.1 ruckmen with Spencer the back-up and Fitzy the fwd/relief ruck. Not to mention Clarke (if he ever plays again).

We can still bring another ruck through the Rookie List (which we were obviously considering with our preparation to draft Jack Hannath). No need to drop any of the younger ruckmen just yet. Only move them if we get a good trade offer.

I have rarely agreed with your posts, pm - particularly the pro Neeld ones- but sgree entirely on this one.

Jamar is contracted for another 2 years and as has been mentioned is useful as a mentor/coach for our emerging young ruckmen.

Spencer, at 23, is starting to emerge from his apprentiship. He is starting to show intensity, pace and ruck smarts. It is interesting how his career is starting to mirror that of the young Cox-even to his club's supporters calling him a [censored]. He is one player with real determination and would make us pay every time he u agsinst us.

Jack Fitzpatrick has overcome more than most players his age, and is now starting to grow into (and having some faith in) his body. His genuine pace and athleticism, combined with his height (and increasing) size will make him incredibly difficult to match up on.

Big Max, if his body can stand up to the rigours of AFL football, will be our Sandilands.

IMO, we must keep them all.

Edited July 1, 2013 by angrydee