POSTMATCH DISCUSSION - Round 11

[P-man 13,188]

Therein lies the problem; is it the players or the coach?

We have a group of footballers who show no signs of being a team, so is this because they lack ability, fitness, or are the just poorly coached.

This forms the bulk of the debate around here day in and day out. Personally I think it must be a combination to produce a team as poor as this.

I fail to see how opposition players are able to get free so often, whereas we struggle to get it out of our back half. Why are we still so susceptible to the press yet most other teams find a way through it? EVERY time it is chip, chip, chip across half back, then pump it long to a pack. Every time. It's ridiculous. Some of this is natural decision-making but surely a large part of this is instruction. Use the space! It's a BIG ground.

But it's also the skill errors when entering our forward 50. Excruciating.

Edited June 10, 2013 by P_Man

[Earl Hood 5,789]

Sorry stuffed up trying to add to bernie's post.

Agree with all you say which got me thinking which is nothing new, this ineptitude has been going on all season.

Why do we only see them training out on the paddock every second day if that. I would have them out on the ground every day for hours to drill in the fr&&king basics. For heavens sake don't tell me they spend every second day analysing in detail from the videos how shite they were? I mean how many videos do you need to see where you didn't run or chase or make position? Forget the bikes or the Gym and weights at this point just get them out on Goshes Paddock everyday in a competitive environment having to get the ball and dispose under pressure, it's called game day simulation. Forget the classroom lets just go man on man- if you have it I am all over you, if my team has it I run off you to space. Is it that hard to be competitive, I am not talking about out-thinking the top sides,just trying to compete one on one and make the opposition earn it. How do you learn to kick to position under pressure, in the classroom or on the field. God I would be keeping it simple from now on.

[Jaded No More 58,020]

He said Clark's foot injury was "a great wait and see" and he would be pleased if the key forward played another game this year. "The way that it gets explained, the boys say it's a very unique injury," Neeld said.

"The ligament is going well but they had to take the screw out early because it shifted."He does four days of rehab and he's got to rest two."On the second day that he rests he goes off and sees some very expensive specialist who then tells him what he can do for the next four days. "How frustrating is that? I get that report every six days. "So if Mitch plays another game for the year I'll be really pleased. It's that unknown."

If we play him too early I will go postal and murder everyone.

Season is dead. Let him fully recover and do not risk our best player. FFS he is all I have left!

[dees64 104]

Tom McDonald back. Garland played well. Trenners is getting better. Flash is back. Col was good in parts. Matt Jones, Terlich and Kent are great pickups. Watts more physical.

The positives you talk should be standard non negotiables!

We are talking as if these players are from another planet who have just started playing AFL!

Enough is enough.... we cant even compete...look at the stats, 1 qtr is [censored]!

[Bimbo 903]

Turnovers became worse the longer the game progressed. That is either fitness, perhaps lack of confidence as the game goes on or no-one to kick it to (which could result from the previous options). There are some reasonable kicks who are making very ordinary mistakes. My head was seeking the solace of my hands more and more as the game went on.

On another tack

Does it mean I am am a completely unbalanced, unreasonable over the top supporter if I felt the free kick count reported in this thread favoured the Dee's far more than I saw on the ground.

[jumbo returns 6,488]

Neeld was also frustrated at the more senior players not doing the right things.

I remember a conversation I was having with a friend of mine who played cricket with Bailey.

His words were thus - 'Bails is not worried about the youngsters, it's the established players he's [censored] off about.'

Perhaps that residual still lingers.....

[DemonFrog 1,347]

Great Result!

The MFC has actually improved this week with only a 83 point loss.

At this rate the MFC should be in a position to another match in about 3 or 5 years.

[monoccular 16,079]

I agree Big Red. But why are we tiring so quickly and noticeably?

(at least partly) because Bailey, and maybe ND before him, did not INSIST on all players WORKING HARD to achieve a top level of AFL fitness.

Missen, Craig and Neeld inherited a mob who were either too lazy or certainly not sufficiently motivated to do this.

[Dr. Gonzo 22,446]

Fark me!!! That is disgraceful, I wonder how many points for the year would be scored from our turn overs....

I don't know the precise answer but it would be the vast majority of our scores against are scored by our turnovers. I'd also like to know if there is a publicly available stat on this. No doubt Champion Data records it but for some reason they refuse to release their stats publicly. I don't know why the media refuse to analyse the stats properly and make them available, probably because if they do make them available people will be able to see the utter ineptitude of their "analysis" over the past couple of decades.

[Mongrel Dee 56]

G'day.

As I said earlier, ill post my views. I haven't read stats or anyone else's posts, but here goes.

This weekend I took the Missus down the coast, and I said to her that if we didn't produce a heart felt effort, with intent and desire, after the week (18months) of anti-neeld, then I will jump ship and support the "it's time to go mark neeld" thread.

I watched the first quarter thinking we were the team in contention for top 8 and collingwood were bound for the draft. We chased, harrased and tackled in numbers. When we got the footy in space, we looked infinite more damaging and likely. What cost us was 2 posters, and blease missing close by- 1.5 instead of 4.2. You can not understand the importance of scoreboard pressure when we play a team above us, especially when 1-9.

The second quarter started very similar, we were all over them but they grappled a goal or 2 against the play. Dawes missed the shot from 50 out and they made us pay directly after. The thing that cost us during the second term, was going forward and instead of kicking from the wing to CHF unopposed, we threw the ball around nf got ourselves in trouble. We then turned a uncontested possession going forward 70 from goal, into a fumbled, rushed kick 50 out that went straight to a 2 on 1 or worse, and watts/fitzy etc were sheperded out and a filth player took a mark and played on down the line unopposed, resulting in a pressure free disposal straight at a filth forward. I'm not sure if they kicked 7 or 8 for the quarter, but every one of those goals came direct from our inefficiency going forward. Again, you can not measure the way that those turnovers kill morale of our players going forward. The umpires definitely hurt us with some soft frees going the filths way, and failing to reciprocate our way, but that said, the inability of several forward passes destroy any team confidence more that anything.

The 3rd started with Dawes subbed out, and with that, any attacking mindset we had. We had fitzy and watts across the forward half, but we looked more dangerous going forward with facey, rodan and blease. Again, team motel was offsides by our structure breaking down, but also the ease on which collingfilth penetrated our midfield on the counter. I would hate to see a "score from turnover" stat as I feel we gifted 6-10 goals from this alone.

The last quarter, cloke got some junk, and we stopped, basically from sheer exhaustion and despair. Dunn had 5 disposals in about 3 minutes, all of which turned into collingwood scoring shots. The worst thing, is instead of putting his hand up and saying "sorry boys, poor kick" he waved his arms at our midfielders and blames them for it. It's frustrating as he is a good kick, but he doesn't look at where he is kicking whatsoever!!!!! And to blame guys In the centre is a cop out, probably further depleting morale.

My summary of all this probably reeks of blame. But if you are on top and playing with confidence in a quarter, you MUST make the most of your shots on goal. First quarter we were a 5 goal better team, yet went in to break with scores level. The second quarter, those same traits came to play, but collingwood took their chances early, and went up 4 goals. After half time is all irrelevant, we were out played but most importantly, we were out structured through injuries and personnel.

Positives-

garland smashed cloke, and t-mac made lynch look 40. He is a poor kick Tom, but he is athletic, offensive and loves defending. Keep with him as he is a great option across half back and will be damaging when we a-learn to receive his handbills, or b- kicks off 3 steps.

Rodan, davey, blease and Kent. I don't know their stats, but their pressure made collingwood fumble and panic early. Inferred pressure I think it's called, and they definitely put it on early.

Watts- such a waste. Not his talent, but the way he leads early at the footy, and we kick it 28m to him, but 40m high. Ill admit, I'm not a huge watts fan, as I expected more, but we do him no favours by kicking the footy to him high and wide when he leads to good position. Classic example in the 2nd quarter on the hff, we stuffed around and instead of kicking direct, he got an under pressure bounce pass from 30m away. When he was on 2 opponents. We are doing his footy smarts no favours. He actually hit the body hard today, and I feel that we are a good team going forward with him as our 3rd or 4th option. He hit the post early and had another miss by a bees foreskin, he could've had 2 at 1/4 time.

Matt jones, toumpas, Howe, Sylvia and Nate jones- these are our midfielders, add viney and grimes, as well as this years additions. These guys use the footy well and run to great position. The trouble is, our skills and our decision making prior to getting it in their hands!!!! If anyone saw Sylvia run to position ahead of fitzy today, but fitzy hit him with a hand pass 1m behind him, you will know why he isn't a top line player. He ran to the right spot, he got offensive and we just burnt him. That said, he put great pressure on and got to some dangerous spots. Nate jones deserved 5 frees minimum, but he got burnt by being the guy chasing the footy and going harder than all of the filth mids. He is a star, but also, a work horse who does not sulk or change his game on. By the scoreboard.

Ill mention trengove, as I think he is playing well. But he is slightly burnt by his own limitations- pace, first option giving and disposal inside f60. But he is a player, and if we can get him a yard quicker, or get him out of the rotations and keep him kicking forward, he will come good.

Pederson was ok, gives a few frees away, but depth player...

Negatives- ruck- jamar was all over jolly, yet he mistimes his run, or palmed it straight to a filth jumper!!!! So frustrating. We need him to demand the ball around ground as we need the target with no Dawes Clark or marking midfielder without Howe lurking.

Mckenzie, tries hard, but he leaves us a player down offensively.

Turnovers and decision making are our biggest killer. We run to great spots, yet the player with the ball tries too much, or kicks to a 2-1 and spoils it, and our opposition runs forward while we are offensively positioned and it just kills us. You can't let teams get an uncontested possession in our back half when we are on the march, they score so easily. This isn't a coaching problem, this is a football problem- dont kick off one step, leaning backwards, don't handball 2m to your defensive side to a player shepherding- if you have the ball and under pressure- KICK THE BLOODY THING LONG, High and put the defender under pressure!!!!!!!

We are on the right track. Add frawley, Clark, Dawes, grimes, viney and another midfielder and a small forward, as well as a good kicking medium defender, we are on the right track. The tv doesn't give the right indicators, we were the better team in first half, we came to play, we chased and pressured. But, we just showed inexperience and decision making errors.

Good effort old chap! Pity you were at the wrong game.

[pm24 451]

Unfortunately I didn't get to the game until the start of the second quarter so looks like I missed the only competitive quarter we had for the game. From what I saw Trengove is looking like the player we all got excited about a few years back. The mark going back with the flight of the ball and then coverting the goal was a real captains goal.

Watts was showing more aggression than he's shown before and was leading very well. He should have had two extra shots at goal of the delivery had been better. He would have had to have been frustrated when he worked his arse off to burn off his man while Kent brought the ball down the mcc wing and completely ignored/missed jack and centered to either tapscott or Trengove. Then of course he made a great lead towards the ball later on but Blease kicked it too high and wide, bringing maxwell into the contest instead of hitting jack on the chest. Our foot skills kill us going into the forward 50 over and over again.

Fitzpatrick also showed something and was better with his foot skills into the forward 50 then most of our midfielders. I loved the chasing and effort from M Jones and Evans, and Garland was fantastic on Cloke and has really gone to another level this year. Tom McDonald will be All-Australian material if he ever learns to kick, because he has the height and the athletic ability to play on nearly any forward going around. If he can clean up his disposal, then in a couple of years.....look out. IF not, he'll just be another so-so defender.

The effort was there but the skills and ability to read the play was not. It is not just the skills, but the poor decision making that is the biggest frustration. I notice on more than one occasion, when we cleared the ball, and actually had multiple players running with each other, they were too close together. There was no spacing. I'm a basketballer, not a footballer, but spacing is vital in both games. If you spread, then it is harder for the defense to cover you as they have more ground to cover. Multiple times we have too many players, to close to each other, with too few moving into a position of advantage.

And the handballing to a stationary player, or handballing to a guy just because he is in front of you has to stop. There was no better (worse) example of this than when the ball was handballed to Sylvia coming out of the back 50 on the members side in the last quarter. Sylvia was running between two collingwood players and the handball was high enough that it gave the collingwood players time to tackle sylvia just as he landed. The handball should have been into the space Sylvia was moving into. This skill is one we simply fail at time and time again, and that mixed with the poor foot skills is killing us.

I can see the benefits of what the club is doing with the training and the improved effort and tackling pressure of the players since the "bruise free" football era, but the disposal skills need to improve quickly or it will all be for nothing.

Edited June 10, 2013 by pm24

[CHAMP 347]

I don't know the precise answer but it would be the vast majority of our scores against are scored by our turnovers. I'd also like to know if there is a publicly available stat on this. No doubt Champion Data records it but for some reason they refuse to release their stats publicly. I don't know why the media refuse to analyse the stats properly and make them available, probably because if they do make them available people will be able to see the utter ineptitude of their "analysis" over the past couple of decades.

This might probably have a lot to do with the good shilling or two that they make out of Subscribers.

[Dr. Gonzo 22,446]

Yes I heard that throw away line "Viney's recruits" I would like somone to list all the Neeld quotes since he started as I think he has changed tack at least half a dozen times. I am unsure what he stands for and have stopped listening to his presser as I just don't believe him anymore

To be fair he was actually praising the recruits from last year saying they were the ones he could actually rely on to use the ball well and not turn it over all the time. He seemed pretty fed up with the constant brain fades from players who have been around long enough to know better (ahem Dunn) and was stating that our recruits from last year are actually able to take the game on and credited their recruitment to Viney. He wasn't talking about Pedersen, Rodan, Gillies etc but rather Terlich, M Jones, Kent, Toumpas and I guess Viney.

[dees64 104]

Good effort old chap! Pity you were at the wrong game.

It amazes me how people just cant see we are a joke & can find positives in a 80 pt loss

The KPIs set by Coll,Haw, etc are standard afl requirements!

Are we getting the right players with correct BEHAVIOUR characteristcs?

[Stigga 25]

Neeld was also frustrated at the more senior players not doing the right things.

I remember a conversation I was having with a friend of mine who played cricket with Bailey.

His words were thus - 'Bails is not worried about the youngsters, it's the established players he's [censored] off about.'

Perhaps that residual still lingers.....

Jumbo... surely you saw through the press conference...

I understand everything you have said regarding our plight...

But it can't go on... something has to give soon...

[Cheesy D. Pun 1,762]

ruckman these days need to be more than just competitive in the ruck - that is half our problem.

Half of our problem? You've got to be kidding me.

Jamar was better than Jolly today. He was the best player in his position on the ground.

Not every team has Dean Cox or Nic Nat.

[beelzebub 22,225]

why cant we do the simple things ?

[Dr. Gonzo 22,446]

This has been one of my longstanding complaints about MFC teams dating back through Bailey and into the Daniher era. I had always felt it was just plain laziness, but maybe lack of fitness goes a long way towards the problem; IF and when Missen and Craig get them up to an AFL level of fitness then if they don't do it, laziness (or just plain dumb) can be the only explanation.

Yep me too, been happening long before Neeld got here and goes back to the Daniher years. I said it before Bailey got sacked and not much has changed since - we have either the laziest or most unift group of footy players I've ever seen. It's consistent too, from start of the year to the end, from first bounce to final siren. It's one of the reasons I was happy with Byrnes earlier in the year, often he would be the only player on the ground busting a gut to actually present into space when we would try and switch the play across half-back. It was clear we should have several players/the whole team pushing across the ground AT PACE (not just jogging between opponents) but more often than not he was the only one.

[Cheesy D. Pun 1,762]

Turnovers became worse the longer the game progressed. That is either fitness, perhaps lack of confidence as the game goes on or no-one to kick it to (which could result from the previous options). There are some reasonable kicks who are making very ordinary mistakes. My head was seeking the solace of my hands more and more as the game went on.

On another tack

Does it mean I am am a completely unbalanced, unreasonable over the top supporter if I felt the free kick count reported in this thread favoured the Dee's far more than I saw on the ground.

It seems to me to grow exponentially. We start out with confidence in each other, to get outside and forward of the ball but with every little mistake that faith gets tested.

I don't doubt for a second that these players are working hard but they lack faith in each other and that has a huge effect on their ability to make the split second decision to transition from defence to attack and vice versa.

[Curry & Beer 5,444]

what the last bunch of posters have discussed is the no.1 issue for me. It has the thing that has me stumped and despairing the most.

leading, manning up, running to space, chasing, applying pressure

what I cannot fathom is how these obvious flaws are not being worked out. The crazy thing is that you can do these things if you have no talent. You can do it if you are 5 foot nothing or 7 foot. It's not something that the coach has any control over. It's something you learn as a 10-year old just starting footy. Why IN THE NAME OF GOD can they not do these things?

[Norm Smith's Curse 2,078]

I went to the game - arriving half way through the first quarter.

I must have been at a different game to some of you.

I had two mates with me who have never watched the demons before, go for other teams and were totally impartial and they were both also convinced that the players were not putting in 100%. We all looked at Dawesy in the second quarter standing in the midfield with his arms folded glaring at players in the midfield and defense with a look that could kill and it wasn't a 'geees you guys are crap look - to me it was 'you bastards''.

My over-riding impression from today's performance and from the vibe I got from everyone around me was that the players weren't playing to save the coach. There was no gut running at any stage. There was no second efforts. if you watched certain players it was like they were hanging back off their opponent for some reason and then ambling in too late every time.

I swear the fastest the players ran was off the ground for an interchange. The girl with the water bottles seemed keener.

People on the train were telling me all sorts of interesting comments. MCC are worried about their connection with us according to one semi drunk guy. Board will walk said another. Collingwood supporters also agreed with my assessment that the players weren't trying 100% and pointed out their own examples.

Say what you will. Tell me this player or that has come good or is improving but I didn't see it at all today. There are obvious reasons in that we are thin already and have lost key players. But having a crack you would think would be important knowing there is speculation from the brother of the head honcho that Neeld is gawn if this game is a dee-saster...

[Norm Smith's Curse 2,078]

Ill probably get flamed for those comments - but they were shared by many where I was sitting.

[Norm Smith's Curse 2,078]

One pies supporter actually said to me at 3 quarter time to stir me up (I sat in general because I was with two geelong supporters I conned into coming) - 'if your fan club put as much effort into the banner as the players it would only have two streamers!' - and im not kidding!

[Demon Dynasty 15,519]

Sorry stuffed up trying to add to bernie's post.

Agree with all you say which got me thinking which is nothing new, this ineptitude has been going on all season.

Why do we only see them training out on the paddock every second day if that. I would have them out on the ground every day for hours to drill in the fr&&king basics. For heavens sake don't tell me they spend every second day analysing in detail from the videos how shite they were? I mean how many videos do you need to see where you didn't run or chase or make position? Forget the bikes or the Gym and weights at this point just get them out on Goshes Paddock everyday in a competitive environment having to get the ball and dispose under pressure, it's called game day simulation. Forget the classroom lets just go man on man- if you have it I am all over you, if my team has it I run off you to space. Is it that hard to be competitive, I am not talking about out-thinking the top sides,just trying to compete one on one and make the opposition earn it. How do you learn to kick to position under pressure, in the classroom or on the field. God I would be keeping it simple from now on.

Hood a beautiful summary.

Neeld's Footy University consists of "All in" lectures 3 times a week and tutorials where the players are split into 3 groups and tutored 4 times a week.

Talk about theory overload and boring the players to death. No wonder they're so bloody flat on most game days.

Some theory is a must but in the end you have to put them through as much drills and match day simulation as possible in order to bring them up to AFL standards.

Neeld's Footy University = Permanent undergraduates who are all potential footy road scholars but who never pass the most important exam at AFL level...winning games on Match day.

Oh, and guess who's being used as the bloody guinea pig for Neeld's Footy University idea? Oh shyte...it's us *_*

Edited June 10, 2013 by Rusty Nails

[RalphiusMaximus 5,993]

Today Collingwood scored 89 of their 122 points through turnovers.

This is what I've been saying for quite a while now. You can't blame the game plan or structures for massive losses when we see these sort of numbers week in week out. You can't defend a turnover because your entire team has run off their men to create attacking options. When the turnover happens they are all caught out of position, allowing an easy score. If we can eliminate this one glaring flaw from our games we will see far closer results, especially since it will also translate into more scoring opportunities for us.

Does anyone know how far off Mitch Clarke is?

As someone else said, he will be lucky to play this year, but nobody really knows.