The end of 'bruise free' football at the MFC

[dee-luded 2,958]

Could this be dee-luded in real life?

Close Daisy, but he looks like a long distant eastern relative of 6 degrees.

Meet my family before we moved into the big smoke.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vz4SPb4E-DM

Yes, i dont care about the reputation.

Better to be feared

Reputation?

We have a reputation as playing like girlyboys. Even Daisy could qualify. but I digress.

Back to footy, we need to become a hardass footy club again. sorry daisy.

Rough & Rugged is in.. backs to the wall, and hammer all wannabies.

September is the place where we want to be.

[Grimseyisgod 378]

We were considered as finals contenders in 2011.

Did'nt happen, but if it had happened, Bailey would still be coach.

We wouldnt have Toumpas, Dawes, Pederson, Brynes.

Moloney and Morton would still be on the list, Bate would be in best 22, Newton would be on the fringe of making the team.

As much as im saddened by the past 2 years, its a new breed, a tough one.

Hopefully this one has premiership potential.

[Older demon 2,319]

Well I will put my hand up as I have been very critical of Mark Neeld and can I point out it is November. Lets re open the discussion about March next year and see if all the changes have made a difference. My concern is that we have topped up with players that ensure we win more games than last year but who will not be there long term but guarantee Neeld another year. I applaud the FD for bringing Viney, Toumpas and Hogan into the club and hope they develop into 200 game players. I have seen NO evidence that Mr Neeld is a great coach or that his game plan will work. At least next year we will be able to judge him on the performance of the team HE built. Pleasing that we haven't been accused of tanking to get draft picks this year.

[Sir Why You Little 35,321]

Well I will put my hand up as I have been very critical of Mark Neeld and can I point out it is November. Lets re open the discussion about March next year and see if all the changes have made a difference. My concern is that we have topped up with players that ensure we win more games than last year but who will not be there long term but guarantee Neeld another year. I applaud the FD for bringing Viney, Toumpas and Hogan into the club and hope they develop into 200 game players. I have seen NO evidence that Mr Neeld is a great coach or that his game plan will work. At least next year we will be able to judge him on the performance of the team HE built. Pleasing that we haven't been accused of tanking to get draft picks this year.

Fair comments mate.

Neeld will be judged hard next year and should be.

The 2nd year of a 3 year contract.

[bing181 8,357]

At least next year we will be able to judge him on the performance of the team HE built.

Not necessarily. There's a team there that he's building, I don't know that it's actually "built" yet.

I also don't really get the "we haven't seen if he can coach" line. According to all reports, the players have come back in much better shape, and there's a lot more intent and intensity at training. Which would indicate that (at the very least) Neeld knows how to motivate players to get the best out of themselves. A big part of his job I would have thought.

Coaching is not just about what happens on-field - though admittedly, it's about the only place we get to really see what's going on. It reminds me of the discussions as to why players like Bartram were in the leadership group. There's just so much that happens off-field, where Neeld seems to be doing well.

[monoccular 16,619]

you must be kidding me

we won 8.5 games that year

we finsihed 2.5 wins outside the eight

we drew and lost by a point to the eventual premiers

we smashed Sydney by 73 and Brisbane and Richmond by 50 and 55

our worst losses were 9 goals, to the Hawks and Cats at the Cattery

there is a reason most football people expected us to play finals in 2011

So can you explain what happened?

Did we over perform 2010 or under-perform 2011?

Did we in fact 'tank'?

Did Bailey 'lose the players' or did the players 'lose Bailey'?

There must be some explanation that we have not yet heard? There were no major personnel changes that I can recall to explain it.

Edited November 25, 2012 by monoccular

[Dee Fan 3,247]

Well I will put my hand up as I have been very critical of Mark Neeld and can I point out it is November. Lets re open the discussion about March next year and see if all the changes have made a difference. My concern is that we have topped up with players that ensure we win more games than last year but who will not be there long term but guarantee Neeld another year. I applaud the FD for bringing Viney, Toumpas and Hogan into the club and hope they develop into 200 game players. I have seen NO evidence that Mr Neeld is a great coach or that his game plan will work. At least next year we will be able to judge him on the performance of the team HE built. Pleasing that we haven't been accused of tanking to get draft picks this year.

I think most will agree its difficult to win games at AFL level, let alone a flag, with a team of under 18's and if we had just drafted kids again this year that's where we were headed. I understand the concern you have in our recruiting some maybe NQR players but we need to get some experience in the group and those we had were, unfortunately, tainted from years of poor coaching and attitude at Melbourne. I don't think Neeld is that shallow that he wants to save his job by winning a couple of games next year he genuinely wants to win a flag and this is his path towards it.

We will see what happens next year and if the current young kids step up, if the senior players perform well and the new recruits show they can play a bit, then Neeld is well on the way to proving he can coach. We are not that stupid that winning a couple of games against easybeats is going to convince us he's on the right track, next year has to be a quantum leap from this year.

[Guest]

sure Miller changed from a bit if a mongrel to looking all at sea. But IMO a large part of that was tribunal related: he got rubbed out I think a couple of times for what at the time had been regarded as fair bumps. ND may well have encouraged him to "cool it" but he did get a lot of opportunity to prove himself.

And it is drawing one hell of a long bow to twist that around to say that two coaches and FDs later they could do the same to Jack Viney FCS!!! Miller lost his mojo for a number of reasons, and for absolute certainty MN wasn't one of them.

Amazing comment IMO.

I hope Neeldy is taking the softness out of the club but we haven't had a real dip since Swooper left (and the first year of ND's reign).

[Grimseyisgod 378]

Well I will put my hand up as I have been very critical of Mark Neeld and can I point out it is November. Lets re open the discussion about March next year and see if all the changes have made a difference. My concern is that we have topped up with players that ensure we win more games than last year but who will not be there long term but guarantee Neeld another year. I applaud the FD for bringing Viney, Toumpas and Hogan into the club and hope they develop into 200 game players. I have seen NO evidence that Mr Neeld is a great coach or that his game plan will work. At least next year we will be able to judge him on the performance of the team HE built. Pleasing that we haven't been accused of tanking to get draft picks this year.

i absolutely agree, but you do have to put it into perspective.

The state of the list he was left with was bloody disgraceful.

He did need to fix it, he bought in Mitch. Sellar (who showed improvement)

put faith in Tmac, got Watts to produce throughout the middle of the year. Jones had a terrific year.

He has his own plan, but this one looks like a real one, not a youth one

[deejammin' 2,096]

One off??

In 2011 we won by the following margins....

90, 96, 89, 33, 30,27,21,11,11

2011 was a disgrace of a year. Those totals look nice on paper but the actuality was quite different, for a start most of the wins were in the first half of the season before we capitulated badly and other teams figured us out.

Also, two wins were against a first year Gold Coast, which makes 6 and a half wins as I don't think Gold Coast counts, one was against Port Adelaide who were barely a team in 2011 (they couldn't beat Gold Coast) in Darwin (which makes the game bizarre every year), another against Brisbane (where we fell over the line), and wins against Adelaide and Freo in Melbourne in which both opposition teams didn't show up. Thats 2 and a half honourable wins, while on the other side of the ledger there was a flogging from West Coast, Carlton, Geelong (186), Hawthorn (sound familiar) and bad losses to Richmond and Port Adelaide (remember the team that was barely a team?) in the second half of the year. As i count it, thats two and a half real wins in 2011 and one in 2012.

Yes 2012 was even worse, but considering all the off-field turmoil, the seeming senior player revolt, Jurrah, bad luck with injuries and a team that was clearly not fit enough going around there were many reasons rather than simply that we got worse. Neeld will be Judged on 2013, as hopefully we will get to put a team he believes in on the field and the club can avoid the constant tragedy that plagued us in 2012. But if we are going to hang our hats on 2011 as a retrospective success then we are in real trouble.

Lastly, the most interesting thing from 2011 is how we performed against the top 4 teams.

lost to Geelong by 186, West Coast by 104 and 48, Hawthorn by 55 and 54, Collingwood by 88.

Overall we lost to the top four by 535 points!! An average losing margin of over 89 points! This shows how far from the top teams we were. 8 and a half wins means nothing if you can't get within 8 goals of any top side. Let alone 8 goals being the absolute closest you get!

In 2012, we lost to Hawthorn by 66, Sydney by 101, Collingwood by 42, Adelaide by 69pts. Admittedly we played two less games, but its still only 278 points, an average losing margin of 69.5. Far better than our 2011 effort. Showing that even though we played better against weaker teams in 2011 we were actually better and more competitive against top sides. Maybe looking too closely for a silver lining as both season were complete shite, however 2011 was no great season. It was terrible!

Edited November 25, 2012 by deejammin'

[bing181 8,357]

Maybe looking too closely for a silver lining ...

Happy to take whatever you've got. It's been a tough few years.

[Rhino Richards 1,467]

2011 was a disgrace of a year.

Yes 2012 was even worse, but considering all the off-field turmoil, the seeming senior player revolt, Jurrah, bad luck with injuries and a team that was clearly not fit enough going around there were many reasons rather than simply that we got worse. Neeld will be Judged on 2013, as hopefully we will get to put a team he believes in on the field and the club can avoid the constant tragedy that plagued us in 2012. But if we are going to hang our hats on 2011 as a retrospective success then we are in real trouble.

And if we are going to try and paint 2012 as better than 2011 then you are in worse trouble

You should have stopped there. 2012 was indeed worse that 2011. And given all the "soft" excuses you have given for 2012 the same would equally apply to 2011.

Neeld has slashed and burned the list not because of what he saw in 2011 and earlier but in 2012... 2012 was a trainwreck and our on field performance went backwards.

Given the excellent changes made to the list, I would be amazed if we put another year like 2012 in . Neeld has the players now and he needs to deliver

[Ron Burgundy 8,584]

I don't think some people appreciate how unbelievably pathetic losing an AFL game to another club by 186 points actually is.

It says everything about where we were at as a coaching and player group in 2011. Neeld inherited a woefully uncompetitive list and game plan, which will take time to fix.

I just don't get why some people don't appear to see this. It's just so bloody obvious.

[mjt 640]

I don't think some people appreciate how unbelievably pathetic losing an AFL game to another club by 186 points actually is.

It says everything about where we were at as a coaching and player group in 2011. Neeld inherited a woefully uncompetitive list and game plan, which will take time to fix.

I just don't get why some people don't appear to see this. It's just so bloody obvious.

People are just sick of waiting, thats all it is, the AFL is not set up anymore for teams to sit on the bottom for 6 yrs, thats why theres a salary cap and the draft.

[The Chazz 4,077]

"The thing that I'm the happiest about is that he has/helped remove players like Petterd, Rivers, Moloney, Green. I think this was 12 months too late (I know I'm likely to cop it for that comment), and have no doubts that Neeld should've made those decisions this time last year."

So you wanted him to come in and delist players that even he admitted to not knowing well? Yeah, that's a great move.

Absolutely I wanted him to do that DF. I nearly spewed when he said that he hadn't watched any replays of our games prior to starting, and that it was a clean slate, and all that other BS he told us.

Ok, I can understand the clean slate attitude, not saying I agree with it though. But if there were to be one replay he HAD to watch, it was 186. There were senior players playing in that game that delibrately sabotaged our football club, yet some on here were happy to accept that. I hold the onfield leaders on that day 100% responsible, and would've moved as many as possible on. It took him 12 months to do it, which is great that it has actually been done, but I would've beaten him by 12 months.

And, a bit more on Rivers. In 2011, Collingwood made him the laughing stock of defenders in the AFL. They highlighted, on a big stage (QB Monday at the MCG), just how incompetent he was as a key defender. Sure, he came out in 2012 and had a good year, but that was more to Neeld playing him in areas where he had very low responsibilities, and it was more his natural football brain that got him through each game playing "well". I wouldn't say he had a great 2012, his output would be barely satisfactory in the top teams, it's just in ours, he was a standout because so, so many other were more pathetic.

[Guest]

Absolutely I wanted him to do that DF. I nearly spewed when he said that he hadn't watched any replays of our games prior to starting, and that it was a clean slate, and all that other BS he told us.

Ok, I can understand the clean slate attitude, not saying I agree with it though. But if there were to be one replay he HAD to watch, it was 186. There were senior players playing in that game that delibrately sabotaged our football club, yet some on here were happy to accept that. I hold the onfield leaders on that day 100% responsible, and would've moved as many as possible on. It took him 12 months to do it, which is great that it has actually been done, but I would've beaten him by 12 months.

And, a bit more on Rivers. In 2011, Collingwood made him the laughing stock of defenders in the AFL. They highlighted, on a big stage (QB Monday at the MCG), just how incompetent he was as a key defender. Sure, he came out in 2012 and had a good year, but that was more to Neeld playing him in areas where he had very low responsibilities, and it was more his natural football brain that got him through each game playing "well". I wouldn't say he had a great 2012, his output would be barely satisfactory in the top teams, it's just in ours, he was a standout because so, so many other were more pathetic.

It bloody hurt a lot of us (and I wish we didn't have to go through with it) but I believe Neeldy went with the 'give them enough rope' mentality. It sounded like that players were 'gently' reminded during the course of the year if they didn't buy in, they would be moved on. For a long time at Melbourne, the players generally got the run of the place or so they thought. I can remember around 2007 when the players were constantly going public with who they wanted to coach them (both ND and Bomber Riley). They were cancelling time trials. It sounds like (or so some proclaim) that they arsed around at training. Neeldy went with the old Tenth Doctor mantra 'I only give one warning' and I think it has probably given him the mandate he needed to overhaul the place as he sees fit.

[monoccular 16,619]

Absolutely I wanted him to do that DF. I nearly spewed when he said that he hadn't watched any replays of our games prior to starting, and that it was a clean slate, and all that other BS he told us.

Ok, I can understand the clean slate attitude, not saying I agree with it though. But if there were to be one replay he HAD to watch, it was 186. There were senior players playing in that game that delibrately sabotaged our football club, yet some on here were happy to accept that. I hold the onfield leaders on that day 100% responsible, and would've moved as many as possible on. It took him 12 months to do it, which is great that it has actually been done, but I would've beaten him by 12 months.

And, a bit more on Rivers. In 2011, Collingwood made him the laughing stock of defenders in the AFL. They highlighted, on a big stage (QB Monday at the MCG), just how incompetent he was as a key defender. Sure, he came out in 2012 and had a good year, but that was more to Neeld playing him in areas where he had very low responsibilities, and it was more his natural football brain that got him through each game playing "well". I wouldn't say he had a great 2012, his output would be barely satisfactory in the top teams, it's just in ours, he was a standout because so, so many other were more pathetic.

A few comments.

Yes - I must say I am amazed to hear (for me the first time) that he hadn't looked at any of our replays, and the 186 in particular. Had he done so he may have Zeroed out a few of the weeds a year earlier.

But as for the Rivers comment QB2011 - it was incompetence on the part of the match committee and game day coaches that allowed that mis-match to go on for so long. Not Rivers' fault per se: it was an impossible match up that should never have been allowed to persist. *I don't remember the line that day, but maybe even extended back as far as the selection table.

Edited November 25, 2012 by monoccular

[rjay 24,185]

And if we are going to try and paint 2012 as better than 2011 then you are in worse trouble

You should have stopped there. 2012 was indeed worse that 2011. And given all the "soft" excuses you have given for 2012 the same would equally apply to 2011.

Neeld has slashed and burned the list not because of what he saw in 2011 and earlier but in 2012... 2012 was a trainwreck and our on field performance went backwards.

Given the excellent changes made to the list, I would be amazed if we put another year like 2012 in . Neeld has the players now and he needs to deliver

'Rhino', I think 2011 showed us that the rebuild was a fail, 2012 proved it. Neeld made a telling comment at an early press conference after a poor performance, asked if he was surprised by the performance he answered "No".

The best part of 2012 was finishing the season and getting on with the trade/draft period that will be the start of us moving forward.

We now move on and agree that it's unlikely we will put in another year like 2012.

[Sir Why You Little 35,321]

I can't remember season 2012. It has all faded...

[Ned 156]

I love how the off season brings us so much hope.

I felt this way this time last year but where did we end up?

I don't want to get high with hope just to be slammed down to earth in 6 months.

Let's be realistic here, I would be happy to see us play competitive football, if we are just out side the 8 and above Richmond at the end of 2013 I would be happy.

2014 will be finals.

Yes, November is when Demonland expectations begin to rise and then crest in February. We all know what usually happens after that. I have few expectations. But I do hope we're a competitive footy team, along the lines of Brisbane this year: always have a good go and maybe upsetting a couple of higher-ups.

[old dee 23,256]

Yes, November is when Demonland expectations begin to rise and then crest in February. We all know what usually happens after that. I have few expectations. But I do hope we're a competitive footy team, along the lines of Brisbane this year: always have a good go and maybe upsetting a couple of higher-ups.

My sentiments entirely Ned

[Curry & Beer 5,444]

There are lots of sides over the years that have won 8.5 or more games in a year but they were still crap and the following year were still crap or worse. I thought it was only Richmond supporters that got sucked in to believing that finishing just out of the 8 one year guaranteed you a finals spot the next.

Of course we could be happy if we won 8.5 games again the following year and the next and the next, or we could do something about the side and get rid of the players that were happy with the 8.5 wins and get some in that weren't.

What do you reckon Stakka; are you happy to win 8.5 a year or do you want to aim for the big time?

how is that 'resurrecting demonology' thing going.. any chance you will go back permanently?

all I said is that right now we are behind the position we were in 2 years ago. I don't know what you are arguing about it is pretty darn obvious that we are. You seem to be talking about the 2010 side as if it had 'peaked' obivously it hadn't, it was a bunch of babies out there - of course we were expected to continue to get better from there, what in the name of God are you talking about. So many revisionists on here changing the past and false-claiming what they knew at the time. Here's the BnF 2010 Green, Frawley, Jamar, Davey, Sylvia, Bruce, Moloney, Scully, Garland/McDonald, McKenzie.. now look at our draftees from 2007-2009

Tom Scully

Jack Trengove

Jordan Gysberts

Luke Tapscott

Jack Watts

Sam Blease

James Strauss

Jamie Bennell

Neville Jetta

Rohan Bail

Liam Jurrah

Cale Morton

Jack Grimes

Addam Maric

Kyle Cheney

Tom McNamara

Stefan Martin

we were assuming that group to develop, what an atrocious strike rate we have got out of that group at this stage. To suggest anyone could feel better abut the club now than they did 2 years ago is nothing but lying to yourself

[Dee Fan 3,247]

how is that 'resurrecting demonology' thing going.. any chance you will go back permanently?

all I said is that right now we are behind the position we were in 2 years ago. I don't know what you are arguing about it is pretty darn obvious that we are. You seem to be talking about the 2010 side as if it had 'peaked' obivously it hadn't, it was a bunch of babies out there - of course we were expected to continue to get better from there, what in the name of God are you talking about. So many revisionists on here changing the past and false-claiming what they knew at the time. Here's the BnF 2010 Green, Frawley, Jamar, Davey, Sylvia, Bruce, Moloney, Scully, Garland/McDonald, McKenzie.. now look at our draftees from 2007-2009

Tom Scully - Gone not what we expexted

Jack Trengove

Jordan Gysberts - Gone not up to modern day fotball

Luke Tapscott

Jack Watts

Sam Blease

James Strauss - Hasn't proved to be anything special

Jamie Bennell - Not up to it

Neville Jetta - Continually injured so who knows

Rohan Bail - Average player nothing special

Liam Jurrah - Gone

Cale Morton - Big disappointment Gone

Jack Grimes

Addam Maric - Not up to it

Kyle Cheney - Not up to it

Tom McNamara - Not up to it

Stefan Martin - Not good enough and probably never will be

we were assuming that group to develop, what an atrocious strike rate we have got out of that group at this stage. To suggest anyone could feel better abut the club now than they did 2 years ago is nothing but lying to yourself

it doesn't surprise me that you don't agree with me, I'd expect nothing less and I'd query my judgement if you did.

The side we had two years ago was as fragile as your reasoning and couldn't stand up to the side we currently have. We are far better off without most of the players you've listed. Where was this supposed improvement going to come from? What were you expecting, Bruce and Green to play on for another 5 year; Addam Maric, Kyle Cheney, Tom McNamara to develop some talent, Bennell to get more than 6 possessions a game, Gysberts and Morton to double their body weight ? Where was it Stakka; in your mind

How do you reconcile this

2010 side as if it had 'peaked' obivously it hadn't, it was a bunch of babies out there

With this

Here's the BnF 2010 Green, Frawley, Jamar, Davey, Sylvia, Bruce, Moloney, Scully, Garland/McDonald, McKenzie

We hade a poor side that was capable of coming up with the occasional win but like your argument going nowhere.

Now toddle of to Ology and annoy them.

[Curry & Beer 5,444]

The side we had two years ago was as fragile as your reasoning and couldn't stand up to the side we currently have.

think about how stupid that comment is when we have been discussing the massive difference in scorelines from 2010 and 2012. You're saying the side that lost to Sydney by 101 would beat the side that beat the same side by 73. I'm not interested in back-and-forthing with you and your inverted logic, you are just nonsensical and just plain contrary for the sake of it

by your own assessment you have accidentally agreed with me by panning that group of recruits

[Dee Fan 3,247]

think about how stupid that comment is when we have been discussing the massive difference in scorelines from 2010 and 2012. You're saying the side that lost to Sydney by 101 would beat the side that beat the same side by 73. I'm not interested in back-and-forthing with you and your inverted logic, you are just nonsensical and just plain contrary for the sake of it

by your own assessment you have accidentally agreed with me by panning that group of recruits

You just don't get it do you. I'll see your 101 and raise you 186.

Read your own posts and see if you can fathom what it is you are trying to say; bet you can't.