THE WILSON FILE - the arrogance at the heart of the innuendo

[jackaub 1,402]

AFL looks at former Demon fitness coach

Its lucky for Julia that Caro does not investigate her past professional dealings

When is this @#*!()&_ person going to just shut up and go away Nothing new in the article Move on Caro and concentrate on your own demons im sure there are many

[jackaub 1,402]

Not so sure.

Given the fitness & condition of out list pre-Neeld, the fact that we employed Hocking & Puolo could be construed as systematic tanking.

I wonder if they asked for a reference on departure.

Maybe you might mean Systemic Tanking There ceartainly hasnt been anything about the dees that could be described as systematic particularly their football

[markc 975]

Btw, I noticed in the first Wilson article that got this tanking story back to the forefront they used an archive photo which showed yours truly seated in a large meeting room. As you worked voluntarily in the club's footy department in 2009 I suspect there's a fair chance you were one of the 15 in the room when Connolly made his 30 second "aside" of that year.

Fan,

i was re reading some posts and did notice this , Fan if this is true that were sitting there in that room , wouldn't you be better served keeping quiet on this matter ? , are you after attention to be called for what was said ? it seems strange you have now started to post and this has come out ? from the outside I don't know if you had a problem with the club or board or even still do . If from what i read you did help out the club and believe you did , well done ,

I like a few have had a problem with the club or players in my stores ( my brighton store to be honest and I believe we meet there too ) and walked away , only 3 years ago CC came and saw me and got me back , i would always support the club but to be honest not as much as I once did over that period. But Now I am back . I am sure you saw that Pinball machine in the player lunch room .

i dont want to know what you heard or sat in on. as far as i am concerned Melbourne played by the rules and did what they needed to do and I support that

this witch hunt by CW is just pathetic , very little facts and real quotes , the Age has lost me forever

mark

[biggestred 5,140]

I also loved her last bit about cameron schwab.

Chief executive Cameron Schwab also faces penalties if it is established he communicated any form of instruction to lose games.

Replace camerons name with anyone else and it is still true.

But she couldnt resist having a go could she?

[Slartibartfast 17,631]

Wilson is excellent reading today.

Amongst other things I learned:

1. Adam Paulo is to be investigated.

2. Dean Bailey is to be interviewed again.

3. The AFL is widening the inquiry to include the behaviour of coaches on the bench in 2009 (not that I thought there were any coaches on the bench in this period)

4. Joel Hocking and some medical staff are being interviewed, presumably Andrew Daff.

5. Connolly is claiming the comments were a joke, he's a funny man.

That tells me that the AFL is struggling. There is no comment from Wilson of an editorial nature in the article. The article is a very positive one for MFC. It's highlighting to the footy public the ridiculous lenghts the AFL is going to and making it look like a stupid witch hunt. Fancy asking a doctor to comment on "strategic moves". Wilson is making the AFL look very silly and I thank her for it.

It fits well with one of her recent efforts where she talked about the methodology of the interviewers. That paints the MFC as the victim of an oppressive AFL and far from hurting us it's helping us.

In addition she has exposed the conflict of interest Vlad is facing in the Adelaide fiasco, and anything that discredits Vlad is good for us, and she is also on the trail of the 3rd party agreements handed out to players which was abused by Carlton and Visy and is still being abused because the new rules are stupid beyond belief. If she raises these issues and stops rich clubs abusing the rules regarding 3rd party payments that will benefit us greatly.

I've enjoyed her articles today.

[Slartibartfast 17,631]

Fan,

i was re reading some posts and did notice this , Fan if this is true that were sitting there in that room , wouldn't you be better served keeping quiet on this matter ? , are you after attention to be called for what was said ? it seems strange you have now started to post and this has come out ? from the outside I don't know if you had a problem with the club or board or even still do . If from what i read you did help out the club and believe you did , well done ,

I like a few have had a problem with the club or players in my stores ( my brighton store to be honest and I believe we meet there too ) and walked away , only 3 years ago CC came and saw me and got me back , i would always support the club but to be honest not as much as I once did over that period. But Now I am back . I am sure you saw that Pinball machine in the player lunch room .

i dont want to know what you heard or sat in on. as far as i am concerned Melbourne played by the rules and did what they needed to do and I support that

this witch hunt by CW is just pathetic , very little facts and real quotes , the Age has lost me forever

mark

HI Mark, we've met at one stage and I've always enjoyed your input.

1. I was not involved in the "vault" meeting. The photo on the back page of the Age was from the MFC Boardroom at the MCC. The vault was at the Junction Oval.

2. I did not "big note" myself about any role I played at the MFC nor have I referred to it in my posts (to the best of my recollection). Hannabal brought it up and I'd prefer he hadn't but each to their own.

3. Wilson is not the instigator of the witch hunt. IMO the information she is getting will be, to some extent, from the AFL either sanctioned or not. The AFL is on the witch hunt and she is reporting it and making it look what it is. Her obsession with it is starting to work well in our favour although I believe many here overestimate her influence and some have completely misjudged mine.

4. If Wilson wasn't reporting it someone else would be. She's taking the moral high ground but in my view she's entitled to her opinion as we all are. She clearly has it in for a few members of the MFC establishment and my best guess is there is a reason for that although I don't know what it is. Her opinions are no worse than Dwayne Russell but he seems to go unmentioned. This is an opinion business, once this issue was raised it wasn't going to go away.

Good to hear you're enjoying the footy again. Remember, players, officials and employees are not the MFC. They represent it for a while but the Club is much greater than that. My interest has never been lost regardless of the silly things some of our club have done.

[daisycutter 29,743]

Good old Caroline "50 shades of truth" Wilson

Glad you "enjoyed" her article Fan. Bet Gardner did too.

[dees189227 12,401]

I wonder if Lynden Dunn is one of these secret players that spoke to the herald sun. I wonder what the players wrre htinking at 3/4 time whn a player like Dunn was trying to get them over the line.

I think Dean Biley may now be regretting saying what he said at his press conference when he was sacked.

As Garry Lyon said on radio yesterday about melbourne, go and speak to the angriest person who left the club in bitter circumstances and they will tell the afl what they want to hear. Its people who are angry and bitter and now it makes sense why so many people left the club.

But its interetsing how they want to speak to McDonald again.

[daisycutter 29,743]

I think Dean Biley may now be regretting saying what he said at his press conference when he was sacked.

Yes, he should be. And he is not the only one who regrets it.

[Slartibartfast 17,631]

I don't like destabilising influences when there's nothing to be gained. And right now there's nothing to be gained. Right now it's a situation of let's all pull together and I'll smack you in the mouth when no-one is looking. You're smacking the club in the mouth when it's under a blowtorch.

It gets my back up.

Have you forgotten about the importance of the written word, which is why you took the time to stand up for the club under adversity ? It was a salient point you made to me many years ago.

I enjoyed your "Due Diligence" thread but it seems that you're accusation of "smacking the club in the mouth" doesn't fit well with it. Maybe you're playing with a feather duster and I'm using a sledge hammer.

I can understand your view but I disagree. If we are "getting things to rights" now and are being investigated it's actually a perfect time to do what we need to do. I don't want to go through all this and then face more disruption later. If there needs to be change now is the perfect time - we can get it all over and done with and start afresh. This affair has tainted us whether we like it or not and that taint won't go unless there are changes in senior personnel.

[binman 43,813]

I like the way they seem to be trying to tell us they're after the disgruntled. Coz the disgruntled always make the best witnesses, after all.

As i have noted before i don't really have an axe to grind with CW and have always considered her to be an ok journalist Unlike Fan however i don't go in for the reporting of football political palaver, which is very much her genre (if that's the right word). I just find it tiresome and would much rather read some decent analysis of tacics, game plans etc (which is woefully short supply across all media).

But i think she might have jumped the shark as has the age actually. What grates with her style is not so much her obvious anger towards CS but that how it seems to cross over into a general negativity towards the club as a whole. She seems to take any opportunity to stir up stuff and have a shot. For example this quote from today's article:

'Fairfax Media understands the AFL has summoned Adam Paulo, who was the club's fitness coach that year and departed in less-than-happy circumstances in the past month'

What does it add to article that he apparently 'departed in less-than-happy circumstances'. It's just another cheap shot. How does she know this by the way? Surely it is not a fact (unless Paulo has directly told her so). It's a small thing but it just highlights the weird mix of fact, conjecture and opinion that seem to be a feature of her wrtiting. Others have pointed it out, but either write an op ed or a news piece.

The other interesting thing i reckon is that as the good Dr notes it suggests that Paulo is yet another disgruntled ex employee who has been interviewed and given evidence. Bailey, For me the fact that so much of this seems to rely on evidence given by ex employees, many of who seem to harbour some angst - starting with McClean of course.

Now for my money i'd expect a serious journalist to explore this aspect of the story or at the least make note of it because it will, i imagine, be a big factor in any determination the commission make. Certainly if it goes to court it would be an issue the finskter would robustly interrogate. This sort of analysis would add some much needed balance to her articles on this issue and would add some light and shade to what is a complex issue.

I'd also like to see her (or others) provide some commentary on the legalities of all this eg what specific rules are in play, what legal avenues would be open to us, what are the implications of a court challenge etc. This would help me understand the issue better and after all this is the idea of journalism not muck raking for muck raking sakes.

[Dr John Dee 1,057]

HI Mark, we've met at one stage and I've always enjoyed your input.

1. I was not involved in the "vault" meeting. The photo on the back page of the Age was from the MFC Boardroom at the MCC. The vault was at the Junction Oval.

2. I did not "big note" myself about any role I played at the MFC nor have I referred to it in my posts (to the best of my recollection). Hannabal brought it up and I'd prefer he hadn't but each to their own.

3. Wilson is not the instigator of the witch hunt. IMO the information she is getting will be, to some extent, from the AFL either sanctioned or not. The AFL is on the witch hunt and she is reporting it and making it look what it is. Her obsession with it is starting to work well in our favour although I believe many here overestimate her influence and some have completely misjudged mine.

4. If Wilson wasn't reporting it someone else would be. She's taking the moral high ground but in my view she's entitled to her opinion as we all are. She clearly has it in for a few members of the MFC establishment and my best guess is there is a reason for that although I don't know what it is. Her opinions are no worse than Dwayne Russell but he seems to go unmentioned. This is an opinion business, once this issue was raised it wasn't going to go away.

If published as opinion. That's what op-ed pages are for, they make the distinction between opinion and journalism clear. She gets paid for her opinion, to boot. With that come certain responsibilities.

[Blistering 541]

This affair has tainted us whether we like it or not and that taint won't go unless there are changes in senior personnel.

This is where I have a problem. The events that we're discussing took place in 2009 and many of those involved in them have either gone or are now employed in different roles at the club and are indeed, by all accounts, doing well.

Should we upset the apple cart because certain malcontents have told their grubby little stories to an over zealous investigator who has in turn passed this information on to a person in the media who despises thes "senior personnel"?

This is the opposite of a democratic and fair result and, as a member I object strongly to such an outcome which would be tantamount to handing a victory to those who plotted against these personel and thereby jeopardised the interests of the club.

I can see how some consider that this is not really about tanking and breaking AFL rules (whatever they may be) but instead, its about doing a hatchet job on people at the club who might not be popular with their critics.

[Hannibal 5,814]

I enjoyed your "Due Diligence" thread but it seems that you're accusation of "smacking the club in the mouth" doesn't fit well with it. Maybe you're playing with a feather duster and I'm using a sledge hammer.

I can understand your view but I disagree. If we are "getting things to rights" now and are being investigated it's actually a perfect time to do what we need to do. I don't want to go through all this and then face more disruption later. If there needs to be change now is the perfect time - we can get it all over and done with and start afresh. This affair has tainted us whether we like it or not and that taint won't go unless there are changes in senior personnel.

In times like this you batten down the hatches and all pull together. Sort out any internal machinations when there's "better" timing. When things are more in your control.

Your suggestions smack of an admission of guilt.

[Hannibal 5,814]

Wilson is excellent reading today.

Amongst other things I learned:

1. Adam Paulo is to be investigated.

2. Dean Bailey is to be interviewed again.

3. The AFL is widening the inquiry to include the behaviour of coaches on the bench in 2009 (not that I thought there were any coaches on the bench in this period)

4. Joel Hocking and some medical staff are being interviewed, presumably Andrew Daff.

5. Connolly is claiming the comments were a joke, he's a funny man.

That tells me that the AFL is struggling.

You've just worked that out ?

[Hannibal 5,814]

Hannabal brought it up and I'd prefer he hadn't but each to their own.

And as I've previously told you, it wasn't done lightly.

You try and manipulate conversations by various means and at the time I wanted to add some "balance". It's a fine word. Look it up.

[Deecisive 1,709]

Melbourne players fitness was pretty poor in 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 and that the MFC was not happy with Adam Paulo hence why they sacked him. but then news items like melbourne not happy with fitness coach does not attract the attention that fitness coach not happy with MFC does.

[markc 975]

HI Mark, we've met at one stage and I've always enjoyed your input.

1. I was not involved in the "vault" meeting. The photo on the back page of the Age was from the MFC Boardroom at the MCC. The vault was at the Junction Oval.

2. I did not "big note" myself about any role I played at the MFC nor have I referred to it in my posts (to the best of my recollection). Hannabal brought it up and I'd prefer he hadn't but each to their own.

3. Wilson is not the instigator of the witch hunt. IMO the information she is getting will be, to some extent, from the AFL either sanctioned or not. The AFL is on the witch hunt and she is reporting it and making it look what it is. Her obsession with it is starting to work well in our favour although I believe many here overestimate her influence and some have completely misjudged mine.

4. If Wilson wasn't reporting it someone else would be. She's taking the moral high ground but in my view she's entitled to her opinion as we all are. She clearly has it in for a few members of the MFC establishment and my best guess is there is a reason for that although I don't know what it is. Her opinions are no worse than Dwayne Russell but he seems to go unmentioned. This is an opinion business, once this issue was raised it wasn't going to go away.

Good to hear you're enjoying the footy again. Remember, players, officials and employees are not the MFC. They represent it for a while but the Club is much greater than that. My interest has never been lost regardless of the silly things some of our club have done.

my mistake then and i guess that's the power of the written word and I read your picture and vault together i apologize for this mate

thought i better quickly post this as it was my mistake, i will further reply later when I get back

as for enjoying footy , it would be much better if we could win a few more games but this will come and yes the club is always bigger than the individual

i look forward to club being one again , the merger crap , the CW tanking crap and so on , we all need to move on we played by the rules simple as that

[Hannibal 5,814]

She seems to take any opportunity to stir up stuff and have a shot. For example this quote from today's article:

'Fairfax Media understands the AFL has summoned Adam Paulo, who was the club's fitness coach that year and departed in less-than-happy circumstances in the past month'

What does it add to article that he apparently 'departed in less-than-happy circumstances'. It's just another cheap shot.

Exactly. It's the same as one of her initial articles where she said that Josh Mahoney had been interviewed on more than one occasion and may have changed his story. She then immediately follows up with "Mahoney was absent from today's training session." She constantly writes nothing of importance, yet wants an inference to be drawn from what are on face value innocuous comments. Those that already believe the club tanked put these pieces of information together and form the opinion that it's only a matter of time before that conclusion is taken to the AFL Commission. Industry group-think at its finest, because it reinforces long held beliefs. A seamless jigsaw that easily comes together.

Doctors, or fitness staff on a bench can't establish any intent on losing. They may have a gut feel, or even have raised eyebrows at certain instructions, but unless they've been included in sensitive conversations their opinions are about as important as mine. Bailey, or any decent defence counsel would be able to quickly explain decisions and cast enough doubt on any suggestion that they were designed to inhibit a player's output.

In the end, I suspect the AFL want to be seen to be doing as much due diligence as possible to send a clear message that any club that wants to entertain going down this path in the future would have rocks in their head. And if the findings ultimately state that the MFC have no case to answer then they can show that their investigation was exhaustive and that despite some people's interpretations no concrete evidence could be found. The AFL need irrefutable evidence, because circumstantial evidence won't be enough to heavily sanction a club that has the courts in mind.

The head coach denies it, the players deny they were ever told not to play on their merits, the former President denies it in print, and Chris Connolly joked about it. There's no smoking gun. Just speculation, innuendo, unusual moves on the back of experimentation, and some with a gut feel. As I said, nothing.

[Slartibartfast 17,631]

In the end, I suspect the AFL want to be seen to be doing as much due diligence as possible to send a clear message that any club that wants to entertain going down this path in the future would have rocks in their head. And if the findings ultimately state that the MFC have no case to answer then they can show that their investigation was exhaustive and that despite some people's interpretations no concrete evidence could be found. The AFL need irrefutable evidence, because circumstantial evidence won't be enough to heavily sanction a club that has the courts in mind.

You've just worked this out?

[dee-luded 2,959]

AFL looks at former Demon fitness coach

Most of this shyte seems to emanate out of the blue, baggers?

Who in power, over there pulls the strings & gives the formers the go ahead to foul us. With impunity there.

[dee-luded 2,959]

In the end, I suspect the AFL want to be seen to be doing as much due diligence as possible to send a clear message that any club that wants to entertain going down this path in the future would have rocks in their head. And if the findings ultimately state that the MFC have no case to answer then they can show that their investigation was exhaustive and that despite some people's interpretations no concrete evidence could be found. The AFL need irrefutable evidence, because circumstantial evidence won't be enough to heavily sanction a club that has the courts in mind.

yes I think the AFL want to try to regain lost integrity, & this saga of vlads AFL "list management", the latest episode of 10 to 12 years of List Managing in the AFL is hot on the heels of the AFL rapping up the priority picks treasure hunt, & is now trying to focus the blame on a scapegoat or scapegoats.

It won't want to hurt its own competition, so won't want to smash a club per se', but look to scalp some footy club people, in order to show an example to others Footy people, who'd be likely tempted in future to follow this model.

We must stand by our people.

[Hannibal 5,814]

You've just worked this out?

No. If you'd read the thread you'd note that's it's an iteration.

Btw, did you note Dr John's post ? Boy, has he pegged you.

[binman 43,813]

This affair has tainted us whether we like it or not and that taint won't go unless there are changes in senior personnel.

I'm curious as to why you think this affair has tainted us? As you note yourself there is every chance the AFL will not have sufficient evidence to sanction us. However they are likely to paint us in a light that suggests that at the least we minimised the chance of winning more than 5 games.

I would argue that there is a widespread belief that at least half a dozen clubs did the exactly the same thing and that in fact it was to be expected given the rewards. For heaven sakes it occurred just last season. GWS were never going to win their second game against GC, never. And they made sure of it by resting at least 5 of their best players. Their reward? The number 1 pick in the upcoming draft. Have they been tainted?

Tainted, why? Where we have been impacted in terms of how we are viewed is that once again we have failed to keep things in house and remained tight in the way Carlton usually are (a club that has historically also had lots of back room drama). This makes us look silly as a club and yes taints us. But is that the fault of the senior personnel or is that fault of those looking to push their own agenda in a pretty grubby way (to be clear i not suggesting you are in that boat at all, Fan, but clearly there are some people who are doing so)?

What is interesting is that thus far there has been no evidence incriminating CS. There may well be some but it hasn't come out. What if the investigation never uncovers any? Will critics of his be satisfied?

A question Fan if you'll indulge me. If the AFL concludes we have no case to answer would you still hold the view that there should be changes to senior personnel? alter?

[rjay 25,093]

Doctors, or fitness staff on a bench can't establish any intent on losing. They may have a gut feel, or even have raised eyebrows at certain instructions, but unless they've been included in sensitive conversations their opinions are about as important as mine. Bailey, or any decent defence counsel would be able to quickly explain decisions and cast enough doubt on any suggestion that they were designed to inhibit a player's output.

They same goes for Brock's opinion, unless he was told to lose a game then he has as much idea as you or I so I don't know why what he said has caused all of this rubbish.

We could all see what was going on and form an opinion on it and that's hardly evidence of anything, it's just an opinion.