Have we improved this year?

[titan_uranus 25,020]

I had a discussion with a mate yesterday about whether or not Richmond had improved this year. There is a growing feeling amongst Tigers supporters that they haven't improved on last year, and maybe have gone backwards.

Got me thinking: have we improved on last year? I think it's a valid question.

There is far, far more to it than win/loss ratio. Currently we have 7.5 wins. We should be able to win the last three, but they are three of the worst four sides of the competition, so does that mean anything?

We've beaten Brisbane, Gold Coast, Adelaide, Fremantle, Richmond and Port Adelaide, who all aren't much chop. And Essendon, who should make finals this year. If we win the last three, we add second wins to Richmond, Gold Coast and Port. Again, nothing special.

Now, some would say we weren't going to be beating any of the good sides this year, and that's fair enough, and it might be sufficient to have us beating the crap sides this year. Others would argue that we've been too far behind the good sides and we should have been closer, without necessarily making finals (or even improving upon the win/loss ratio of last year).

At this moment of the year, I'm not too sure if I can equivocally say we've improved. I don't think our midfield has developed as it should have this year, and I don't think our forward line has been as good as our talent would suggest. That's not to say I'm worried about our path forward, as I still think the talent is on our list, and a new coach with a bit of leadership might get something out of our senior players (and let's not forget we've missed Grimes and Bail for long periods this year, as well as Jamar, Scully, and various others).

But I'm quite interested to note what Demonlanders think. I can probably guess how this is going to turn out actually...

RPFC's KPI thread might say more than anything else.

[Nasher 33,616]

Until probably three weeks ago I'd have said yes. Now I'm firmly in the "let's just wrap up the Bailey era ASAP and not dwell on it any further" camp.

[Samsara 65]

Is this a rhetorical question?

[beelzebub 23,378]

No brainer !!

[e25 5]

Individual players have improved, yes.

Some have also regressed.

As a team, I don't think we have improved, but the game has got a lot harder for young teams with the advent of the press.

Also, I think people forget how bad we were last year, because of a single great win late in the season against Sydney.

I'm hoping this was one of those "1 step back, to take 2 steps forward" kinda scenarios.

I don't mean to use a Bailey mantra, but we still need to get games into the kids.

I think Blease's game is a positive from today.

[titan_uranus 25,020]

As a team, I don't think we have improved, but the game has got a lot harder for young teams with the advent of the press.

Also, I think people forget how bad we were last year, because of a single great win late in the season against Sydney.

The sub rule doesn't help young sides either. It's the fundamental reason why we're seeing blowouts happen more regularly than before.

But to me there are far more players who haven't developed like I expected than there are players who have improved, and as a side, we should be more gelled than we are and more able to apply our game plan week in, week out.

[Roost It 1,434]

No we haven't improved and the main reason we haven't is because we entered the season totally unprepared for the current game style. With a good coach surrounded by a solid football department this list is the beginning of a very strong side. The current leadership group needs to be totally removed from power and replaced with Frawley, Trengove, Watts and Grimes. Don't throw the baby out with the bath water folks. The list is solid. Lose Scully and Sylvia for 3 first round picks and Jack Viney and the rebuild continues.

[jnrmac 20,092]

No we haven't improved and the main reason we haven't is because we entered the season totally unprepared for the current game style. With a good coach surrounded by a solid football department this list is the beginning of a very strong side. The current leadership group needs to be totally removed from power and replaced with Frawley, Trengove, Watts and Grimes. Don't throw the baby out with the bath water folks. The list is solid. Lose Scully and Sylvia for 3 first round picks and Jack Viney and the rebuild continues.

+1

Unbelievable draw.

No momentum or game plan in the pre-season. And we stuff it up. Pathetic.

And from Todd Viney " we are not worried about game plan we are just trying to build bigger bodies". Even more pathetic.

OUR LOSING CULTURE SUCKS. WE ARE A SOFT CLUB.

Demand more peeps.

[Jerry Lundergard 420]

It is glaring that Baileys mantra all through the preseason was to win more quarters of football, and we currently sit 3rd last on the table in that area, only 3 ahead of Port Power.

[Redleg 40,928]

No we haven't improved and the main reason we haven't is because we entered the season totally unprepared for the current game style. With a good coach surrounded by a solid football department this list is the beginning of a very strong side. The current leadership group needs to be totally removed from power and replaced with Frawley, Trengove, Watts and Grimes. Don't throw the baby out with the bath water folks. The list is solid. Lose Scully and Sylvia for 3 first round picks and Jack Viney and the rebuild continues.

I'd keep Moloney in the leadership group. Couple of his efforts today were fantastic.

Can't just have draft picks, that is part of our problem, you just get younger. If Colin goes we need to get a good player from wherever he ends up.

Edited August 14, 2011 by Redleg

[Jack son 5 162]

Wait till the season is finished. Then decide.

[RalphiusMaximus 6,054]

We've seen improvement in some players. Watts and Martin in particular have taken huge steps in their development.

We've blooded some very good young players who have added to the team with their attack on the ball and speed. Howe, Tapscott, Nicholson, Evans and Blease have all shown us something.

Sadly, we've also seen a serious drop in others.

Morton has had a dismal year. Jurrah has been shown up for his lack of work ethic. Davey and Green have failed in nearly every aspect of the game, both as senior players and as leaders.

We've also had injuries to some of our most important players such as Jamar and Frawley that have prevented them from reaching the level they attained last season.

Overall, I think with the draw we were given we have underperformed badly and if anything have taken a step back. We are crying out for more onfield leadership and for a few more senior players to balance the youth in the side.

[titan_uranus 25,020]

It is glaring that Baileys mantra all through the preseason was to win more quarters of football, and we currently sit 3rd last on the table in that area, only 3 ahead of Port Power.

Fair call. We have no consistency, even in games we win, from quarter to quarter. I mean, we lost a quarter to the Gold Coast in Round 4, specifically because our intensity and effort fell away after half time.

What happened this year is we came in with the wrong game plan and a stubborn coach who wasn't able to change things when he needed to. The result was that we were left behind by the good clubs whose forward presses destroyed our run/carry movement off half back and who want to see us put numbers behind the ball as it plays straight into their hands. In contrast, we end up stuck in the defensive half of the ground, being pressured into oblivion by the opposition's forwards, and, whether the ball's in the hands of a skilled player or not, the fact they would invariably have no one to kick it to meant that we would turn it over and create opposition scoring opportunities.

When we win, we beat sides who are not as good as employing the forward press. In those games there's less pressure and we're able to move the ball out of defence and create inside 50s. This is not to say the game plan works. It doesn't. A premiership winning side does not simply beat the bottom 6 sides and win finals that way. You have to match the best, and with the way our players have been taught to play, we cannot do that.

Injuries haven't helped, of course, but to counter the injuries we've had players who have not developed like they should have. As a result, players like Morton, Bennell, Wonaeamirri, Jetta, Jurrah, Petterd, who we reasonably expected to be important to this year, haven't had the years we were hoping for. Add to that a senior core that is as bad a group of leaders as there is in the competition, and you get a year of stagnation.

[Adzman 2,154]

If we win the next 3 I will say we have slightly improved, but the sad reality is we are still a joke and miles off being a competitive football team.

There have been some big positives this year (Howe, Martin, Trenners), but the bad is going to outweigh the good (Scully & Sylv going, Jimma not doing so well, club issues, player and board disputes)

Another season to forget demon fans.

[Dee Fan 3,247]

We looked like rabble when we played against brisbane in a practice match prior to the season starting and we've gone backwards from there. Our efforts in the NAB cup games were indicative of our form this year, we are dreadful. There needs to be some deadwood cut out and some new trees planted and we need to rebuild the club with the kids we have and those we will get over the next couple of years. None of the senior players we have will help us win games that are tight, none of them. Moloney, Jones and Bartram are the turnover kings, McDonald is usually not far behind. Rivers will play well in a winning side as will Sylvia, Davey and Green but when the chips are down they disappear. Be gone, most of them. The problem when you have fringe players is you are tempted to play them and when you do they inevitably let you down. We would never win a flag if most of them were in the side so you have to replace them. Bartram is, as Viney said, a warrior and will give his all for the club but that just isn't good enough anymore. Moloney is pretty much the same, as is McDonald, perhaps you could keep McDonald as he does at least seem to be able to do something other than kick it long to no one.

Jones has to be the worst decision maker in the competition and I'm not sure if he thinks he's still playing under age football where he was the strongest kid on the park, but he isn't anymore. What do you do with Morton, that's the problem when you recruit skinny kids with no appetite for the contest, they don't always bulk up and they never learn to go hard for the ball. Davey has gone from a hard running forward, feared tackler and good footballer to a receiver in the backline who can't get his own ball anymore. Sylvia looks great running down the middle with the ball but he doesn't do it often enough because he doesn't get it often enough.

We've recruited some players with obvious talent but we've never developed their game, we've let them play the same way they did when we recruited them and their style is what it was at under age level when they were able to dominate.

Our players have let us down, the coaches have let them down, we've recruited the wrong types and failed to develop those we've recruited anyway.

We had a couple of wins against the usual suspects but that aside we have been simply uncompetitive.

None of our kids have come on this year, apart from the two Jacks, and some have gone backwards.

[Range Rover 1,935]

No.

[Waltham33 475]

It is not a question whether we have gone backwards, the question is by how much.

I make this comment in light of the fact that our opponents are always improving as well (except maybe Port). Look at the Eagles improvement for one.

[Dee Fan 3,247]

It is not a question whether we have gone backwards, the question is by how much.

I make this comment in light of the fact that our opponents are always improving as well (except maybe Port). Look at the Eagles improvement for one.

Rather than face up to that many of the posters on her will make excuses for us and give reasons why the other teams have improved. We will be lucky to win another game this year and I can only see the Port game as a pretty good show, Gold Coast have gone forward as quickly as we have gone backward and Richmond at least show some heart.

[Diablo Deemon 220]

We have gone backwards alarmingly

We are mediocre, a joke

belief seems to be absent.

We wont beat Richmond next week

[PeterJames 46]

I think the best way to look at it is we may win more games than last year but we are further away from the top teams.

[diesel 420]

No question we have gone backwards. I am actually shocked some people think we may have improved or need to wait and see how we go against 3 bottom 8 sides to decide!

As others have said, Bailey's measure of our improvement was quarters won. We have failed this measure glaringly.

[45HG 1,539]

Would seem a pretty obvious no IMO.

[Grandson of a gun 276]

For all the Bailey is a good bloke and good at developing the kids stuff, his lasting impression on this group is his game plan which just does not stack up against the majority of the competition.

We all know there has not been a proper forward press all year.

We play high risk footy straight through the corridor to a poorly set-up forward line, turn the ball over far too much because we cannot break a press and then get destroyed on the turnover.

I think in most cases our young players have improved individually. Our senior players have not. For some it is due to injury. For others they've hit a form slump.

The game style needs a complete revamp.

[Demonic Ascent 0]

Wait till the season is finished. Then decide.

The season is finished. We've gone backwards.

Good post by RobbieF sums up my thoughts. I've always questioned whether our weakness is in our recruiting or player development. I used to think recruiting but I know think we draft the right kids but we just don't develop or improve them. The only ones that really improve and push themselves are those that have it naturally anyway (like Watts & Trengove).

Good debut today by Sammy Blease, he went in and attacked the ball. Will he improve on that over the course of his career? I'd expect him to get to more contests and rack up more touches but will he actually develop significantly from what we saw today?

I heard Viney on the radio pre-game and he said one of the big differences between Melbourne and the clubs he has come from (Port & Hawthorn) is that Bailey was focusing on offense primarily whereas Port & Hawthorn focussed on getting their defensive game right first and flowing on from there. So after getting rid of Daniher for creating a team of mentally weak front-runners we recruited another guy who wanted to do the same thing.

[Hellaintabadplacetobe 4,294]

No question we have gone backwards. I am actually shocked some people think we may have improved or need to wait and see how we go against 3 bottom 8 sides to decide!

As others have said, Bailey's measure of our improvement was quarters won. We have failed this measure glaringly.

Agree wholeheartedly. People looking at the win/loss ratio are seriously clutching at straws given the mouth watering fixture we were given this year. We played far more exciting footy last year, and our disposal skills are currently deplorable, sometimes even when under no pressure whatsoever. We are devoid of leaders and play without confidence as soon as we are put under pressure.

I thought we could sneak in the 8 this year, how wrong was I. Now I have faint hope of pushing for finals next year because sadly, we need to rid some senior players who either no longer want to be with us or are no longer good enough and perhaps never were. With that likely comes a more inexperienced side, a longer rebuild and another up and down season next year IMO.

Massive fail this year. The biggest concern is the massive floggings we have copped and the average losing margin says it all. I would be interested to see the stats of how many 50 point losses we have had this year compared to last year. I think it would be sobering reading (45HG??)