A Two-Tiered AFL Competition

[Arrow 1,257]

Personally I think terrible idea. If the real concern is tanking adopt the NBA model of drafting where you go into a draft lottery. Tanking still increases your chances of gaining the first pick but the bottom team hasn't gotten the first pick in previous 4 years.

If I know by round 11 my team definitively won't be playing finals this year and isn't allowed to play finals next year I'll crack the sh**s.

Next.

[Gooner 9]

I actually don't mind this idea for several reasons:

- by playing the worse teams it means that the teams down the bottom of the ladder should win more games during the season. In the bad seasons, teams may still win 5-6 games rather than 3-4 games because they play the poorer teams more often and this could increase attendances

- it means that the league should benefit with more competitive games being played

- there is something to play for all season, I think finishing in the promotion places is more rewarding than finishing 8th and being knocked out of the first round of the finals, currently, only the top four sides have a realistic chance of winning the flag

- it's not that different to the current situation where half the teams have no realistic chance of winning the flag and the top sides all play each other multiple times

However, the bigger issues arise in teams who improve rapidly or fall rapidly. For example, the bulldogs this year in playing all the big sides would suffer and win few games, or the eagles would be crushing all the sides in the bottom half. I don't think the financial aspects are as big an issue as people are suggesting. The big teams already play more blockbusters and are more likely to play each other twice during the season and benefit financially as a result. I think it makes for a fairer league in that teams that make into the top half actually benefit, rather than the AFL simply selecting the teams that they want to see benefit on the basis of membership. For example, Essendon or Carlton wouldn't continue to get blockbuster games unless they finished in the top eight, and the Kangaroos wouldn't miss out on big games despite finishing in the top eight as they did a few years ago.

[Range Rover 1,935]

As opposed to the irrelevance of playing the ENTIRE season in an inferior division?

Ask anyone who has played in promotion matches and finals and see if they felt "irrelevant". I played B-grade amateur footy for several years and I can tell you it was one of the great moments in the club's history when we got promoted to A-grade.

Don't forget, it also makes the end of the season extremely tight and exciting for clubs in the top tier 6th - 9th positions as they will be scrapping feverishly to AVOID relegation.

There's excitement and relevance everywhere!

[DeeSpencer 26,070]

I see a doom loop springing in to action.

Why wouldn't the top 5 be heavily populated by the likes of Collingwood, West Coast, Essendon, Carlton etc who can spend big.

Clubs will be forced into even longer re builds to make sure they can get up and stay up.

Good young players would leave struggling Div 2 sides to jump into Div 1.

We would get some interesting end of year play offs and games leading up to them, but it wouldn't be worth ruling out half the comps chances before the start of the season.

Why does every game have to be watchable to every person, it never will be anyway. The true supporters of a team will still be interested in their side in the current set up.

A flexible Friday night roster should be the first change the AFL make, by picking the Friday night game a month out from one of the first 3 games of the round.

[Rogue 585]

What are the problems that some are trying to solve with the two-tiered competition idea?

I haven't looked at the proposal in detail, but it feels like taking a sledgehammer to a walnut.

[H_T 3,049]

Explain how Schwab's proposal is unfair?

So it's better to finish 11th, than it is 8th ?

[Chicken Deelicious 0]

Two tiers is a crap idea. We have a system in place to equalise teams (draft, salary cap, trading process) which no tiered system that I know employs.

You never know which teams will be top half or bottom half. Bulldogs this year as a top half performer, Blues as a top 4 contender? When would the split be decided? Tiers would affect membership, sponsorship, attendance,merchandise sales.

If the AFL want to expand the competition with GWS, then the logical choice (already offered) is paired conferences, like the Grid Iron (or the super rugby).

THe AFL are never about fair. They are about cash.

Idiotic idea. But who knows, maybe its STOOPID enough for Vlad to go for!

[beelzebub 23,382]

Actually Vlad wants a final 10...thats his idea of genius !!

Edited June 8, 2011 by belzebub59

[Range Rover 1,935]

Actually Vlad wants a final 10...thats his idea of genius !!

How about a final 18 starting next year with a grand series of qualification games from rounds 1 - 24.

That way all clubs' supporters could feel like they are part of it.

[Rogue 585]

How about a final 18 starting next year with a grand series of qualification games from rounds 1 - 24.

That way all clubs' supporters could feel like they are part of it.

Good idea.

[titan_uranus 25,042]

Without having read the thread:

I know Brendan, and he is a very intelligent man who knows what is good for sport.

But I can't agree with his plan here. I do get the argument that with more clubs comes more games, and thus the potential for more meaningless games, but the meaningless component of games stems not from the number of sides per se, but the quality of the foootball. If the expansion works as its intended, then the new clubs will promote more players to play the game, which will hopefully translate to a higher standard of football, and that will itself work to eradicate meaningless games.

Moreover, I cannot imagine what relegation would do to Port, the Dogs, North Melbourne, or us. The financial implications of not being unable to win a flag for at least a year would be shocking. Richmond would be a dead club by now.

[biggestred 5,125]

the whole concept of going into a season knowing that whatever you do, however good you are, you cannot win the flag blows my mind. why would you bother? if you were a fan, why would you bother going? why get a membership?

what they need to be looking at is FIXTURE EQUALISATION - to ensure all teams get a fair draw/fair exposure/fair money from said draw

and looking at putting a cap on the ENTIRE FOOTBALL DEPARTMENT. not so much the department spending, but the coaches and support staff need to be capped IMHO.

[beelzebub 23,382]

A reality is that now unless youre going to finish top 4 youre not in teh race for the flag either.. paint it any which way youlike thats what happens. So for much of the season many teams are going through some sort of "motion" anyway..

[Demon Tragic 0]

AFL revenue, media coverege and attendance is at all time high. It aint broke, it don't need fixin!

[old55 23,687]

In fact, if you look back at Schwab's plan, 12th puts you in the promotion/relegation playoffs. Something I didn't understand at first. The more I look at it, the fairer and smarter the idea looks. I reckon we should get the Schwab brothers together at MFC.

I like Schwab's plan because of the inter division matches - that means blockbusters are retained. The idea I'd been considering just had the teams playing other teams within their divisions which would not be good if say WC and Freo were in separate divisions for 3 years in a row and never played each other - those derbies are great no mater the relative positions on the ladder.

I think his plan could be tweaked regarding who gets relegated and promoted. I think the Div 2 top team should automatically be promoted and the 7th, 8th and 9th team in Div 1 and the 2nd, 3rd and 4th team in Div 2 should play off for a two further vacancies in Div 1 - the two best teams of that series gets them. That means a minimum of 1 up and 1 down and potentially 3 up and 3 down. I think it's better to give teams the opportunity to play for Div 1 postions. That finals series would be nearly as interesting as the flag battle.

It's not exactly clear in the Schwab article how many teams (in addition to the 2 mandatory) go up and down as a result of the play-offs.

[old55 23,687]

A reality is that now unless youre going to finish top 4 youre not in teh race for the flag either.. paint it any which way youlike thats what happens.

I'm with you there bub

[Dappa Dan 2,188]

Use the NFL model. Two Conferences... you play the teams in your conference twice, and the teams in the other conference once (roughly. Works out that you still play everyone once, and a few teams twice)...

Top 4 teams from both conferences advance to finals. Works a treat over there. In fact they have twice as many teams, so to sort it out they have 2 conferences, and those two 16-team conferences have 4 divisions of four... winner of each division advances, plus the two next-best performed teams.

I love it, personally. It takes a few minutes to soak it all in... but then so does our comp, when you look at finals.

If you do it this way, you get conference or division rivals... Which become MASSIVE games... like this one. One of the top 3 things I've ever seen in sport.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ddTacY83qBk

[Supermercado 2,802]

Would rather play a dead rubber against North than the Plate Final against them like we're in the World Sevens.

Not a terrible concept for a new league, not one with 100 years of history. Hope there'd be a trail of blood from here to Timbuktu if the league decided to follow ideas like this.

Can't believe we're so starved for success that people are relishing the chance to win a fake cup for finishing tenth.

[Gorgoroth 13,016]

So the baby bombers of 93 would not have won the flag, they finished 8th the year before so would have been relegated. 2000 we would not have made the GF as we finished 3rd bottom the year before.

Other than the obvious lack of funds and care factor for the second tier from others outside the club, we essentially play a year for the right to contest the flag.

So say this year we finish 13th, stay in the second tier, but get our gun young players into the 40-50 games per player and with luck make a fantastic run at it, win more than any other club in either tier, but cannot with the flag cos we are in tier two, top tier 2, win that crappy promotion title/flag what ever it is then the next year come up to tier 1, get a bad run of injury etc and our window is over before we reached the chance.

Stop changing the game, it's getting so far from the game I grew up loving that I do not love it as much as a whole. I love Melbourne and will still attend out games, but I care for the game as a whole less every year due to the [censored] changes to try and make it into some thing it bloody isn't.

it's not the EPL, it's not the NFL etc so stop bloody trying to make it into them!

I love the EPL, I love the NFL, but I bleed for Melbourne, stupid ideas like this will kill me.

[Range Rover 1,935]

So the baby bombers of 93 would not have won the flag, they finished 8th the year before so would have been relegated. 2000 we would not have made the GF as we finished 3rd bottom the year before.

Other than the obvious lack of funds and care factor for the second tier from others outside the club, we essentially play a year for the right to contest the flag.

So say this year we finish 13th, stay in the second tier, but get our gun young players into the 40-50 games per player and with luck make a fantastic run at it, win more than any other club in either tier, but cannot with the flag cos we are in tier two, top tier 2, win that crappy promotion title/flag what ever it is then the next year come up to tier 1, get a bad run of injury etc and our window is over before we reached the chance.

Stop changing the game, it's getting so far from the game I grew up loving that I do not love it as much as a whole. I love Melbourne and will still attend out games, but I care for the game as a whole less every year due to the [censored] changes to try and make it into some thing it bloody isn't.

it's not the EPL, it's not the NFL etc so stop bloody trying to make it into them!

I love the EPL, I love the NFL, but I bleed for Melbourne, stupid ideas like this will kill me.

I hear where you're coming from but I think we are lucky being Melbourne supporters as we're about to go on a good run of seven or eight years, hopefully more. Hopefully.

But there are some other clubs where, quite clearly, they are in for a great deal of long term pain. People will drop off if they feel there's genuinely no hope of making the finals for years on end, particularly supporters of the newer interstate clubs.

Empty stadiums in Brisbane and Sydney is the AFL's worst nightmare and I reckon they will do everything in their power to see that it doesn't happen.

Edited June 8, 2011 by Range Rover

[Sir Why You Little 37,120]

I hear where you're coming from but I think we are lucky being Melbourne supporters as we're about to go on a good run of seven or eight years, hopefully more. Hopefully.

But there are some other clubs where, quite clearly, they are in for a great deal of long term pain. People will drop off if they feel there's genuinely no hope of making the finals for years on end, particularly supporters of the newer interstate clubs.

Empty stadiums in Brisbane and Sydney is the AFL's worst nightmare and I reckon they will do everything in their power to see that it doesn't happen.

Yeah and what happens after the good run of 7 years?? The MFC Plummetts, sponsorship $$ plummett and any of our decent players who are left play out their careers some place else.

Clubs will whither and die in a second tier.

There is a CUP up for grabs each year, do not tell the ORIGINAL club that "this year" you are not eligable-no you must qualify for next year.

This city would be under siege conditions every year, as certain clubs fell.

Leave it alone.

[Gorgoroth 13,016]

Stuff the interstate clubs, i don't care if they all fall over as long as every year the MFC is trying its hardest to win the AFL premiership.

[tonatopia 278]

Why is it?

In an 18-team comp, if you are 4 games out of the eight by round 11 you are basically out of contention with half a season to go. You're playing for draft picks, which is ridiculous.

The current system already has this unhealthy feel to it and it will only get worse with another team added to the mix (and possibly Tazzy and an unknown 20th team in years to come).

Soccer has perfected the relegation system. Just have a look at the ferocious battles that occur in the English Premier League right through until the final day of the season as sides desperately try to "stay up" or get promoted. A relegation/promotion scrap between Bolton and West Ham can be just as suspenseful and entertaining as a top of the table clash between Man U and Chelsea.

Locally, football leagues such as the VAFA use this type of system and anyone who follows amateur clubs will attest to how exciting things can be right until the final round of the year.

Frankly I don't see how the AFL can avoid going down that path.

I agree 100%. Its just a matter of time until a 2 tier system comes into play.

[BLWNBA 1,123]

Not a fan of the idea at all. The AFL doesn't have the supporter base to do this, and the second tier is almost inconsequential. The 15-18th teams in the comp would hardly receive any exposure, and if a team was to languish there they would basically be killed off. This system is short sighted and I reckon it would only increase the gaps between the rich and the poor clubs.

[JP_ 60]

I think one idea would be to change it so that the top 2 teams in division 2 still have a chance to play finals. Teams 5 and 6 in Div 1 could play teams 1 and 2 from Div 2 in a kind of "finals playoff", which means it would almost be like the present system (1-4 double chance, 5-8 instant elimination). You still retain the incentives for promotion / relegation (because the most realistic chance at a premiership still comes from playing in Div 1), but at least it means that (theoretically) every team still has a shot at the premiership if they're good enough. But I'm still not sure if this system (or even the one that Schwab has proposed) would eliminate meaningless end of season games between teams with nothing to play for.