BITTER, SWEET, BITTER

[Deemort 28]

That is an idiotic post....

Firstly they are not racehorses....they are footballers, so lets compare them to that. Stars who had badly broken legs young to become stars....M. Voss. G Lyon....thats all i know off the top of my head but im sure they are more.

Gysberts Strauss and Blease have had a whole preseason and have "got wrong"? What basis is this? They are all currently fit and playing games....Gys and Strauss have shown at bit in the game i saw against Brisbane....im guessing you didnt see that, by all reports Blease looked pretty good in scorpions game.

Go put your head back in the sandy, its not even round 1 !

Beat me to it, fantastic and spot on reply...

Not related but why has it got on page 2, post by The Master, edited by Nasher???? Same person or am I missing something?

[Keyser Söze 0]

I am prepared to adopt the catchcry " it is only a practice match' and if we turn it on against the Swans, the pre season will have been forgotten. The one thing that worries me is and it has been said by many that know " form can't be turned on and off ". Anyway onto the real stuff and Go Dees.

What happened last year in preseason?

That should be used as a guide.

Even if we need a heavy round 1 loss to find form, I don't mind that.

More than anything, this is another development year.

I want to see team and individual improvement, that is basically it.

Anyone seriously thinking we'll give the top 4 a shake is overly optimistic and forgetting where we're at.

It's not impossible, but very very unlikely.

[Keyser Söze 0]

Sometimes I think posters must have a vague memory of a player and then just let their imaginations run wild and state it as fact.

So much rubbish in this thread.

If Blease were a racehorse... he'd have been shot in his first year.

[Keyser Söze 0]

Beat me to it, fantastic and spot on reply...

Not related but why has it got on page 2, post by The Master, edited by Nasher???? Same person or am I missing something?

Being an admin Nasher can edit posts like a mod, is my understanding.

Nothing to worry about.

[DeeSpencer 26,083]

That is an idiotic post....

Firstly they are not racehorses....they are footballers, so lets compare them to that. Stars who had badly broken legs young to become stars....M. Voss. G Lyon....thats all i know off the top of my head but im sure they are more.

Gysberts Strauss and Blease have had a whole preseason and have "got wrong"? What basis is this? They are all currently fit and playing games....Gys and Strauss have shown at bit in the game i saw against Brisbane....im guessing you didnt see that, by all reports Blease looked pretty good in scorpions game.

Go put your head back in the sandy, its not even round 1 !

Firstly, I started this whinging so I'm going to stick to it. If it turns out to be wrong then that will be a good thing. I'm going to get all my negativity out in this thread, because after watching our first 3 games there is plenty of negativity to go around.

Voss and Lyon had shown plenty first and that was 20 years ago.

I was at the Brisbane game. Strauss was his usual self - one good kick in between slops. Gysberts they wouldn't even play in the middle, which I suppose wasn't his fault. Bailey was too busy sticking with Moloney and Jones.

Edited March 12, 2011 by the master

[Keyser Söze 0]

Please stop embarrassing yourself.

[Yorkie 2]

Dear oh dear.

I posted for the first time because the thread said 'match report' and I was there.

I feel sorry for Monty who gave an excellent post but has been overwhelmed by all the other dribble posted here.

You really are a frustrated lot aren't you!

Don't bother firing back because I won't be reading.

[The Big Ticket 94]

Why are Essendon (who have a similarly young list) finding improvers everywhere where we have Maric and Jet. Tapscott I nearly left off that list, that is unfair to him. But Strauss, Blease and Gysberts had a whole preseason to get right and instead got wrong. Sure Blease was injured but you either get over it or you don't. Have you ever seen a race horse come back from 2 years out and be a star, it doesn't happen. I'm not blaming him but if he was going to be a player he would be back by now. As you said Tapscott bounced straight in last week, why are the others not doing that. Stop making excuses for Watts. He spends too much time in his own little superstar world. If we keep letting him play half baked games without dropping him we'll be doing ourselves a disservice.

Maybe it will come together in 2012 onwards but I'm predicting a drop this year and I'm almost certain Bailey will go in similar fashion to Knights. He's changed his game plan from up the middle to round the boundary and an already confused playing group don't have a clue what the hell is going on. He's fascinated with how much weights we've done when he should be more interested in how fit we are and how much run we have in the side. Every year Jones and Moloney get more bulked and less agile, it's rediculous.

You cannot be serious.

I don't even know where to start.

You obviously have no idea what the idea of a practice game is. With your comment on Bailey, did it ever occur to you that he may be trying out his plan B or even a plan C? We can't win a Flag with only a plan A.

We were obviously all over the Hawks in the first half with plan A.

And as for Blease, I reckon the kid's done bloody well just to get back on the park. Stop being so harsh on him.

Edited March 12, 2011 by BattlerBailey

[Mydee 288]

Why are Essendon (who have a similarly young list) finding improvers everywhere where we have Maric and Jet. Tapscott I nearly left off that list, that is unfair to him. But Strauss, Blease and Gysberts had a whole preseason to get right and instead got wrong. Sure Blease was injured but you either get over it or you don't. Have you ever seen a race horse come back from 2 years out and be a star, it doesn't happen. I'm not blaming him but if he was going to be a player he would be back by now. As you said Tapscott bounced straight in last week, why are the others not doing that. Stop making excuses for Watts. He spends too much time in his own little superstar world. If we keep letting him play half baked games without dropping him we'll be doing ourselves a disservice.

Maybe it will come together in 2012 onwards but I'm predicting a drop this year and I'm almost certain Bailey will go in similar fashion to Knights. He's changed his game plan from up the middle to round the boundary and an already confused playing group don't have a clue what the hell is going on. He's fascinated with how much weights we've done when he should be more interested in how fit we are and how much run we have in the side. Every year Jones and Moloney get more bulked and less agile, it's rediculous.

Because Essendon had a terrible coach who no support from their powers that be last year, so they are now going through the new coach honeymooon period. Because they are only practice matches and the season proper is a whole new ball game.

Also comparing humans with animals, players- race horses demonalnd posters - donkeys is fraught with problems.

[Mad_Melbourne 877]

The main problem that i have taken out from our pre season is our, for lack of a better word, inability, to defend against a smaller forward line. Essendon implemented one, Brisbane played with mainly small forwards, and from the second half onwards, it was a smaller forward line for Hawthorn and we just couldnt find either the right match ups for the player, or just someone who was quick enough to play on these small forwards. With Rivers, Warnock and Joel Macdonald, not really the quickest players, i feel that there is really only room for two of them in the backline, and Grimes, not really having that acceleration off the first few steps, the smaller quicker forward line has really led to us being lost in our defensive 50. Due to this I think players like Bennell and Bail are pretty essential to play down there with Bartram, and then Grimes to be the third small defender on the roatating midfielder. This would mean that Rivers, Warnock, Garland, and Joel Macdonald would be left to take the mid sized to tall forwards.But to me i think it is obvious that, without Frawley in the roatation i feel our backline does lack that ability to design our desired match ups, and can not wait to see him in round 2 or 3.

Having said that, i am not too worried about the issue yet, as I think through our pre season we have been experimenting with zonal play and younger defenders like Nicholson and Evans, and it will be interesting to see in round 1 if Sydney stack their forwardline with the smaller quicker players, and if we have a somewhat smaller backline to start with.

[Gandalf46 133]

Positive - two wins in Adelaide - I struggle to remember the last time we achieved that;

Not so positive - losses to James Hird, Brisbane and Hawthorn. Particularly the Lions in Melbourne - despite all the 'trial game' and 'rookies having a run' text it was still disappointing to read about losing to one of the Spoon favourites;

Summary - not losing any sleep - all 17 clubs are still on 0 competition points. Let's debate the development of youngsters, toughness of third year players and Bailey's game-day strategies, after a few 'real' games have been played.

ps - thankyou Monty for the review (totally agree with your general observation on Jones).

Edited March 12, 2011 by Gandalf46

[Redleg 41,475]

Anyone seriously thinking we'll give the top 4 a shake is overly optimistic and forgetting where we're at.

It's not impossible, but very very unlikely.

I thought realistically we would give the top 8 a shake. I still do, injuries to me are the main factor.

[Dee Fan 3,247]

It did not seem inconsequential to Hawthorn.

They start the season full of confidence

And will play finals.

Unfortunately we are the reverse.

My gut tells me a long year ahead.

Membership sales will be low the next two weeks!

That's what concerns me, we seem to be happy to lose and just put it down to pre season, how come the other clubs want to win and we don't?

I've seen a couple of the games so far and we've looked terrible we've been beaten because we aren't good enough not because we aren't trying. Someone has to win these games how come it's never us?

If we want to go blissfully in to the season with our head in the sand then so be it but this has the ring of 2007 to me.

[jabberwocky 2,301]

Sick of hearing, people should lie down and take a bex the sky is falling in.

It's disturbing for the club that they had there 3 best mids out and we got smashed out if the middle

The second half they out scored us 26 to 63 with scoring shots of 27 to 15. Without Franklin.

Yes it is pre season but what have the boys learnt? How to get through practice matches without injury? WOW WE! The one thing the cub need is a winning feeling. We won 36 quarters of football last year that's a joke.

If anyone on here thinks that we are a sure thing for round 1 you are kidding yourself? The thing is we should be. We pump them late last year. All I can say is I'm glad were not playing Gold Coast first up because if we played them in 2 weeks and lost the boys confidence would be shattered. It just feels like we are going to start slow again this year. It seems like we have lost all our momentum from last year. I just hope the boys don't feel the same.

I am sure that we would rather be winning than losing. I am sure that we would like our structures and disposal to hold up but.. football games are intense physical contests and intensity can be difficult to measure.

Intensity will fluctuate in these pre-season games and we cannot measure how switched on our blokes have been in these games. I won't be making any predictions regarding this coming season based on a couple of scratch matches.

Brad Green, Aaron Davey, Colin Sylvia and Brent Moloney just to name a few looked to me to be having a nice trot around the park in a couple of games between spasmodic bursts of heightened interest.

[Keyser Söze 0]

I thought realistically we would give the top 8 a shake. I still do, injuries to me are the main factor.

The bottom half of the 8 is a completely different kettle of fish to the top half.

I'd be disappointed if we don't make the 8.

Injuries, as always, are critical.

So far we've fared well in the preseason for injuries, in spite of what some panic merchants may think.

[Samsara 65]

From memory we have Sydney (MCG), Hawthorn (MCG), Brisbane (MCG), Gold Coast (Away) in first four games. We should be 3-1 after that, 2-2 at worse. I think after the first month of football, you will get a better idea of where we are at.

In fact, the first 7 games are all winnable, so 5-2 or 4-3 after first 7 is realistic.

Edit: First 7 as follows

Sydney (Home) Win

Hawks (Home) Lose

Brisbane (Home) Win

Gold Coast (Away) Win

Bye

West Coast (Away) Win

Adelaide (Home) ?

From that, I would hope we are 4-2 and a bye at least.

Edited March 12, 2011 by Samsara

[Tony Tea 2,809]

The main problem that i have taken out from our pre season is our, for lack of a better word, inability, to defend against a smaller forward line. Essendon implemented one, Brisbane played with mainly small forwards, and from the second half onwards, it was a smaller forward line for Hawthorn and we just couldnt find either the right match ups for the player, or just someone who was quick enough to play on these small forwards. With Rivers, Warnock and Joel Macdonald, not really the quickest players, i feel that there is really only room for two of them in the backline, and Grimes, not really having that acceleration off the first few steps, the smaller quicker forward line has really led to us being lost in our defensive 50. Due to this I think players like Bennell and Bail are pretty essential to play down there with Bartram, and then Grimes to be the third small defender on the roatating midfielder. This would mean that Rivers, Warnock, Garland, and Joel Macdonald would be left to take the mid sized to tall forwards.But to me i think it is obvious that, without Frawley in the roatation i feel our backline does lack that ability to design our desired match ups, and can not wait to see him in round 2 or 3.

Yeah, spot on.

[H_T 3,049]

I don't post on here much (obviously). But after just completing the round trip from Hobart to aurora stadium I am too tired to write something in depth about the game. Sufficed to say this was a practice game. It looked like one in the last half especially. But there was certainly enough in the first half to make you think that this year is definitely going to be better than last year.

Thanks for your input. Together with your post and the reviews from Bailey & Sylvia. I think it's pretty clear that it was a practise match. Particularly the second half given the club rested players with corks and there was more game time into players due to lack of rotations.

Thanks.

[old dee 23,872]

From memory we have Sydney (MCG), Hawthorn (MCG), Brisbane (MCG), Gold Coast (Away) in first four games. We should be 3-1 after that, 2-2 at worse. I think after the first month of football, you will get a better idea of where we are at.

In fact, the first 7 games are all winnable, so 5-2 or 4-3 after first 7 is realistic.

Edit: First 7 as follows

Sydney (Home) Win

Hawks (Home) Lose

Brisbane (Home) Win

Gold Coast (Away) Win

Bye

West Coast (Away) Win

Adelaide (Home) ?

From that, I would hope we are 4-2 and a bye at least.

So do I But are you are making a value judgement or is this just what you want to happen.

I look at our team and see 8 players who have proved they can go the distance.

The rest are kids who have yet to show they are good long term AFL standard players.

In the last three weeks I have seen no one stand up and take the place of Jnr. and CB.

Then again I did not see friday night!

I have a feeling in my gut I over rated our team last year, by the end of April we will have a good idea!

[Choko 493]

So do I But are you are making a value judgement or is this just what you want to happen.

I look at our team and see 8 players who have proved they can go the distance.

The rest are kids who have yet to show they are good long term AFL standard players.

In the last three weeks I have seen no one stand up and take the place of Jnr. and CB.

Then again I did not see friday night!

I have a feeling in my gut I over rated our team last year, by the end of April we will have a good idea!

I think a lot of people have over-rated our team.

If we look at it, we have minimal depth/challenge on places, which is just about the first fundamental of success.

Our forward line is suspect over 22 weeks. We have no crumbing forwards - Wonna has never given us the output that his potential suggests, and after a shocker of a pre-season, he is not likely to be influential. Maric is never going to make it IMO. Our key position players are Watts, Petterd and Jurrah. If Watts makes it, it won't be for another 2 - 3 years minimum. Jurrah has a real challenge to deliver consistently. Petterd is injury prone and again, has never delivered consistently. Our best forward is still Green.

In the middle, we have lots of potential. Trengove, Scully, McKenzie. We have lost McDonald. Moloney and Jones are similar players. No-one has a real turn of speed, and Sylvia will attract all the midfield attention. We have significantly less quality midfield rotations than a lot of the good sides. Jamar is a gun, but has no backup.

In the backline, we have Frawley who is a gun, Garland, who is/will be a gun (or will he be played forward because of the deficiencies there?) and Rivers, who, due respect, is almost past it. In terms of flankers and rebounders, we have Grimes who is a fantastic reader of the ball and usually a creative kick, and Davey likewise. Otherwise, we have dodgy kicks out of the backline.

Tactically, I have seen nothing we do that would particularly worry sides. Probably our most noticeable targeted area of improvement has been in bulkig up/tackling.

Don't get me wrong, I could run the case for the positive. If Maric comes up, Bennell improves in his attack on the ball and consistency, Martin taking the next step, Strauss or Tapscott coming in and giving us what we need. I definitely think Morton, if/when he recovers, adds class and versatility, and Gysberts is going to be a gun one day. But at the moment, I am running the case for the realist.

[Nasher 33,617]

Not related but why has it got on page 2, post by The Master, edited by Nasher???? Same person or am I missing something?

KS covered it - but as an admin I have the right to edit posts as I see fit. In the master's case I just took out one inappropriate sentence (didn't affect the flow of his post at all) - in general I don't like deleting whole (long) posts just because it has one or two very minor CoC violations in it.

[old dee 23,872]

I think a lot of people have over-rated our team.

If we look at it, we have minimal depth/challenge on places, which is just about the first fundamental of success.

Our forward line is suspect over 22 weeks. We have no crumbing forwards - Wonna has never given us the output that his potential suggests, and after a shocker of a pre-season, he is not likely to be influential. Maric is never going to make it IMO. Our key position players are Watts, Petterd and Jurrah. If Watts makes it, it won't be for another 2 - 3 years minimum. Jurrah has a real challenge to deliver consistently. Petterd is injury prone and again, has never delivered consistently. Our best forward is still Green.

In the middle, we have lots of potential. Trengove, Scully, McKenzie. We have lost McDonald. Moloney and Jones are similar players. No-one has a real turn of speed, and Sylvia will attract all the midfield attention. We have significantly less quality midfield rotations than a lot of the good sides. Jamar is a gun, but has no backup.

In the backline, we have Frawley who is a gun, Garland, who is/will be a gun (or will he be played forward because of the deficiencies there?) and Rivers, who, due respect, is almost past it. In terms of flankers and rebounders, we have Grimes who is a fantastic reader of the ball and usually a creative kick, and Davey likewise. Otherwise, we have dodgy kicks out of the backline.

Tactically, I have seen nothing we do that would particularly worry sides. Probably our most noticeable targeted area of improvement has been in bulkig up/tackling.

Don't get me wrong, I could run the case for the positive. If Maric comes up, Bennell improves in his attack on the ball and consistency, Martin taking the next step, Strauss or Tapscott coming in and giving us what we need. I definitely think Morton, if/when he recovers, adds class and versatility, and Gysberts is going to be a gun one day. But at the moment, I am running the case for the realist.

Spot on Choko you have it covered beautifully!

Lets hope a couple of the young guys come on quickly or it will be a long year I fear.

[Samsara 65]

I certainly realise that saying we have x amount of winnable games is rubbish at heart. They are equally losable by the same token. You're spot on Choko with regards to the team at the moment. We are still developing and we need a lot of players to lift. Certainly need to look at 2011 as a developing year (as many members have said) and, as supporters, we should be content with a year that sees positive development overall (at least I will be). I'd like to think 10-12 wins will occur, but development is still priority over premiership points IMO.

We made big inroads last year and played some beautiful footy at times (equally, we played horrible footy sometimes, such as the game against W.C). It was a much more positive year compared to the preceding years where wins were few and far between. But, to think we are top 4 potential is seriously deluded (again, IMO) and even top 8 is by no means an easy task.

That is my two cents anyway. Looking forward to the proper season now.

[timD 994]

I think a lot of people have over-rated our team.

If we look at it, we have minimal depth/challenge on places, which is just about the first fundamental of success.

Our forward line is suspect over 22 weeks. We have no crumbing forwards - Wonna has never given us the output that his potential suggests, and after a shocker of a pre-season, he is not likely to be influential. Maric is never going to make it IMO. Our key position players are Watts, Petterd and Jurrah. If Watts makes it, it won't be for another 2 - 3 years minimum. Jurrah has a real challenge to deliver consistently. Petterd is injury prone and again, has never delivered consistently. Our best forward is still Green.

In the middle, we have lots of potential. Trengove, Scully, McKenzie. We have lost McDonald. Moloney and Jones are similar players. No-one has a real turn of speed, and Sylvia will attract all the midfield attention. We have significantly less quality midfield rotations than a lot of the good sides. Jamar is a gun, but has no backup.

In the backline, we have Frawley who is a gun, Garland, who is/will be a gun (or will he be played forward because of the deficiencies there?) and Rivers, who, due respect, is almost past it. In terms of flankers and rebounders, we have Grimes who is a fantastic reader of the ball and usually a creative kick, and Davey likewise. Otherwise, we have dodgy kicks out of the backline.

Tactically, I have seen nothing we do that would particularly worry sides. Probably our most noticeable targeted area of improvement has been in bulkig up/tackling.

Don't get me wrong, I could run the case for the positive. If Maric comes up, Bennell improves in his attack on the ball and consistency, Martin taking the next step, Strauss or Tapscott coming in and giving us what we need. I definitely think Morton, if/when he recovers, adds class and versatility, and Gysberts is going to be a gun one day. But at the moment, I am running the case for the realist.

REally good post

[The Chazz 4,077]

I think a lot of people have over-rated our team.

If we look at it, we have minimal depth/challenge on places, which is just about the first fundamental of success.

Our forward line is suspect over 22 weeks. We have no crumbing forwards - Wonna has never given us the output that his potential suggests, and after a shocker of a pre-season, he is not likely to be influential. Maric is never going to make it IMO. Our key position players are Watts, Petterd and Jurrah. If Watts makes it, it won't be for another 2 - 3 years minimum. Jurrah has a real challenge to deliver consistently. Petterd is injury prone and again, has never delivered consistently. Our best forward is still Green.

In the middle, we have lots of potential. Trengove, Scully, McKenzie. We have lost McDonald. Moloney and Jones are similar players. No-one has a real turn of speed, and Sylvia will attract all the midfield attention. We have significantly less quality midfield rotations than a lot of the good sides. Jamar is a gun, but has no backup.

In the backline, we have Frawley who is a gun, Garland, who is/will be a gun (or will he be played forward because of the deficiencies there?) and Rivers, who, due respect, is almost past it. In terms of flankers and rebounders, we have Grimes who is a fantastic reader of the ball and usually a creative kick, and Davey likewise. Otherwise, we have dodgy kicks out of the backline.

Tactically, I have seen nothing we do that would particularly worry sides. Probably our most noticeable targeted area of improvement has been in bulkig up/tackling.

Don't get me wrong, I could run the case for the positive. If Maric comes up, Bennell improves in his attack on the ball and consistency, Martin taking the next step, Strauss or Tapscott coming in and giving us what we need. I definitely think Morton, if/when he recovers, adds class and versatility, and Gysberts is going to be a gun one day. But at the moment, I am running the case for the realist.

Good post Choko.

How I see it, and like you it is a case of being a realist, is that where we are at currently, there are teams that are simply better than us. Collingwood, St Kilda, Geelong, Bulldogs, and Hawthorn are by far better teams than Melbourne, and will fill positions above us on the ladder. Over the next couple of seasons, I would expect that St Kilda, Geelong and Bulldogs won't make that list. Honestly, Carlton are well ahead of us in their development (so they should be - it started a couple of years before ours), and I personally think that Essendon are a better team than we are. That, in my view, means we will be fighting for 8th spot. Last year we moved in to that group of 5 or 6 teams that clog up the middle part of the ladder (eg.7th-12th spot), but were at the bottom end of that group. If this year, we can take that step up and get closer to the top of that group (which in my opinion consists of Roos, Freo, Crows, and I think this year Richmond will be like us of last year and just scrape in), then I'll be a very satisfied supporter.

Anyone with higher expectations than that are seriously kidding themselves. It's great to be optomistic, hell I am as guilty as the next person, but I am also realistic, and the reality is that there are 7 teams in the AFL this year that are better than us, and we are in a tight race with 4 other Clubs to be the 8th best team. I'd be as happy as a dog with 2 whats-its if we make the 8 this year, but should we finish 9th, I, along with most in the Football Department, would see that as a massive step forward, maybe even more so than last years efforts.

In regards to this years preseason form - any time we have 22 blokes that get paid to run around in our jumper and they get beaten hurts! But, I've been involved in practice matches before, and from memory, more than half the games we didn't even have a scoreboard! If we won (even without a scoreboard you know in some games!), we didn't sing our song. They are irrelevant in terms of score, but very relevant in terms of trying new things, giving some of the kids a taste, playing blokes in positions that may be out of their comfort zone, etc etc. Plus, as I said to a friend of mine, I'm glad we lost our last 3 - imagine if we had've won each one by 5 goals or more. The external pressure that would be put on a lot of those kids wouldn't be the best thing for their development. It will happen one day, but they're not ready for it yet.