Good Call, Bad Call

[Maldonboy38 6,406]

Our midfield has some issues but we can't give a great v poor tag until we see them in up to 5 games of the regular season. However, like many Dees supporters, it is unlikely that Jones, Moloney, McKenzie and Tapscott can ALL survive alongside Scully, Davey, Trengove, Grimes Sylvia etc...

Look at the Saints. They have the super-grunt work horse in Lenny Hayes surrounded by a group of midfielders who bring a different set of strengths - Del Santo, Montagna, Armitage, and then of course Goddard.

For mine, I can't see Beamer maintaining his place long term. I love the bloke: what he does with the new recruits, his love for the red and blue, his in your face attitude. But his emphasis on the ground has one dimension - in and under. His long kicking that I used to think was such a strength has become his weakness because the other teams read hinm like a book and drop defenders into the 60m hole when he gets the ball.

Gysberts will take Beamer's place permanently by the end of this year or earaly in 2012 not as a replacement like-for-like but simply as a better all round footballer. Can you imagine him with another 6-8kgs on his frame?

Jones has shown he can learn and if he can break out of the idea that he can shrug off all tacklers he will improve out of sight.

O, I almost forgot Rohan Bail. What position(s) he will play I do not know but he has a huge upside that is relatively untouched. His aggression and run make his utility attributes enormous on the scale of potential.

Edited February 25, 2011 by Maldonboy38

[rpfc 28,779]

Neither good or bad. That is a 'putting things into perspective" call.

And perspective can be bad??

Interesting...

Still we are MFC supporters...

Persective is frowned upon.

[H_T 3,049]

And perspective can be bad??

No.

I was just thinking of a better "call" .... keeping up with the theme...don't worry. I could have just been boring and said it was "Correct" - but others may interpret that as being smart...or something...you know what I mean.

[Melb16 493]

Nathan Jones and Brent Moloney in the same midfield doesn't work.

Too slow.

Good call, bad call?

Bad call. People go a bit over the top in regards to pace.

Did Ling, Bartel and Corey play in the same midfield?

[Dappa Dan 2,188]

Nathan Jones and Brent Moloney in the same midfield doesn't work.

Too slow.

Good call, bad call?

For our game plan? Yes. But it depends on the ground. You'd think a tip like Etihad would suit them... but like the rest of the side... they're just lost. Both guys don't have an extra string to their bow... except maybe Jones as a tagger. That's what hurts them, more than the lack of pace.

[Deestroy All 14,266]

Bad call. People go a bit over the top in regards to pace.

Did Ling, Bartel and Corey play in the same midfield?

It's not just pace though, it's the one dimensional games they have as well as the lack of pace. Ling was the games best tagger for 5 odd years, and he knew/knows his limits when it came to kicking, he didn't just bomb it long. Bartel is a Brownlow medalist, goal kicker, excellent over head, just an excellent player. Corey was in a team with these blokes and did as he pleased.

Jones is as tenacious as they come, massive heart, but he's slow across the ground and he's rushed in his head. His hands aren't great especially in close. We need players to pass him so we don't even have this argument. Jordie is almost there.

Moloney has very good hands in all handballing situations.

I'm sure we all remember in Bailey's first year when he pulled Beamer to the side at quarter time after 3 long bombs to nowhere and gave him a massive spray "not once, not twice, but 3 f#&kin' times!!". After that Beamer was lowering his eyes and hitting sweet, low 40m passes often. But the end of last year and these couple of NAB rounds he's back to his old ways, it's not good enough for someone his age, in his role, he shouldn't need another bake.

But his best is far better than Jones', and he reads Jamar better than most. I'm worried about how long he'll last, but he's still in the best 18.

McKenzie has Jones' tenacity, better hands and his defensive side / tackling is better. Should be a no brainer once he's fit.

I see a need for all 3, just not on the same team sheet.

[DeeSpencer 26,083]

Bad call. People go a bit over the top in regards to pace.

Did Ling, Bartel and Corey play in the same midfield?

McKenzie, Trengove, Gysberts (or Moloney/Jones) - done.

The cats didn't win the flag last year. Collingwood did with one bullocker - Ball, and a couple of other strong bodies who have so much more too their game than Moloney and Jones in Swan and Pendlebury.

Jones and Moloney look like they are carrying too much bulk. We've seen James McDonald tough it out with the biggest in the centre square for a decade with no weight on him. Why have slow players in Jones and Moloney appeared to have bulked up over the preseason - Good call/Bad call

The fact that when our mids win a centre clearance all they seem to be able to do is bomb it forward is a massive issue. The lack of handball to open runners is so far below the required standard - Good call/Bad call

[Jaded No More 68,974]

Excellent call and one I made last night.

You can only have one big, slow, uncreative midfielder, and sometimes even that's one too many.

Moloney has proved over the years that he can be a very good clearance player, and he does have a role to play, but you cannot have two inside mids with no pace, who don't win clean possessions, who aren't great by foot or hand, and are just used as battering rams.

Essentially if those two are in our starting midfield each week, than we have progressed very little since 2007, haven't we? The midfield has been our biggest weakness since 2002 and I'd hope that after years of drafting we could significantly improve in that area. Moloney AND Jones, aren't the answer.

I too am a massive fan of McKenzie and with Junior gone, and McKenzie injured, our tackling last night was disgusting to a point of non existence. You're always going to have the precious few who won't do the grunt work and lay multiple tackles in a game, and that's OK, but if you're an inside mid you need to be able to lock the ball in, as well as get it out. Yesterday as soon as our players overran the ball, Essendon were able to run with it freely. Even in the midst of a 2 on 1 contest, we couldn't lay a tackle.

Edited February 25, 2011 by Jaded

[titan_uranus 25,045]

But he is worth persevering with as you do not have a successful season with only your 'best 22'...

Not if there's no foreseeable upside.

I just don't see in Jones what others do. He makes poor decisions, and doesn't execute them well anyway. He tries to take on multiple opponents and thus gets caught with the ball regularly. He's strong and he's a good bullocker, but that's about it, and it's all a bit one-dimensional.

Why persevere with him when we have players like Blease, Tapscott, McKenzie and Gysberts?

Bad call. People go a bit over the top in regards to pace.

Did Ling, Bartel and Corey play in the same midfield?

Does Jones have the talent of Ling, Bartel or Corey?

No.

[Melb16 493]

Does Jones have the talent of Ling, Bartel or Corey?

No.

Obviously not Bartel. But I don't think it's a given that Ling and Corey are great players. They were surrounded by elite midfielders which made them better. Also not certain that they were going much better then Jones at age 22-23.

You always look slow when you lose. Davey was chased down by Slattery! I cant really remember any of our midfielders burst away, yet theirs did often!

One thing I think we struggle at is spreading at stoppages. We all attack the ball, get caught, and then the opposition have outriders for the spillage and can run it out. This makes us look slow. I believe once you get a Scully in there and we up our pressure and spread more things turn around a bit.

Smart ball movement makes you quick and doesnt necasarily require leg speed. Poor setups and spreading at contests make you look slow! I think that is more of an issue for us.

[Nasher 33,617]

I'm sure we all remember in Bailey's first year when he pulled Beamer to the side at quarter time after 3 long bombs to nowhere and gave him a massive spray "not once, not twice, but 3 f#&kin' times!!".

That gave me chills at the time. I can't remember any time where I could see so clearly what the coach was saying without any sound. Loved it.

[jayceebee31 761]

Except in the wet.

Agree in the wet- maybe both.In the dry neither- we have better midfielders on the list.

[titan_uranus 25,045]

Obviously not Bartel. But I don't think it's a given that Ling and Corey are great players. They were surrounded by elite midfielders which made them better. Also not certain that they were going much better then Jones at age 22-23.

You always look slow when you lose. Davey was chased down by Slattery! I cant really remember any of our midfielders burst away, yet theirs did often!

One thing I think we struggle at is spreading at stoppages. We all attack the ball, get caught, and then the opposition have outriders for the spillage and can run it out. This makes us look slow. I believe once you get a Scully in there and we up our pressure and spread more things turn around a bit.

Smart ball movement makes you quick and doesnt necasarily require leg speed. Poor setups and spreading at contests make you look slow! I think that is more of an issue for us.

I like the bolded bit.

Corey is much better than you give him credit for. Ling was, during Geelong's dominant years, the competition's premier tagger. It might be easier to tag someone when the ball is often in your team's possession but its unarguable that he did it time and time again.

[Yokozuna 1,004]

I tend to agree with the call that they both cant play in the one midfield, but ATM there is nobody pressing to replace them. They are getting a game until we get Gysberts, Tapscott, Blease etc into the midfield and then I am not sure who goes.

In regards to there long bombing, unfortunately they were not the only ones who did this on the weekend. Almost every player bombed it long into the forward line, to small teammates, outnumbered teammates or just to the opposition. It was very annoying. I dont recall too many hit ups to a leading forward against the bummers.

We also did it the previous week against the adelaide teams, but it was glossed over because we won.

[Dappa Dan 2,188]

I too am a massive fan of McKenzie and with Junior gone, and McKenzie injured, our tackling last night was disgusting to a point of non existence. You're always going to have the precious few who won't do the grunt work and lay multiple tackles in a game, and that's OK, but if you're an inside mid you need to be able to lock the ball in, as well as get it out.

This was the thing that's stuck with me since Thursday. Pretty much the ONLY thing actually. I know it was NAB cup, and no-one cared... but some of our body-on-body stuff was actually WORSE than last season, if you could believe that. Watts, Bennell, and many of the younger kids don't have "it" when it comes to tackling. Sylvia, Jetta, McKenzie... these guys have that killer instinct. As you could always see with JMac... You have to WANT to tackle. It's not enough to just put your body close enough to the guy and hang off him. You have to clamp down. It's a real worry, especially at this stage. Maybe a big focus has been put on gameplan and skills over the off season... but the hardness factor is going to be as big a thing for us as anything.

I'm juuust a touch nervous about the softness creeping into the side. Not panicking yet... but I'm concerned.

[Straight Sets Simon 23,113]

I still would have kept Valenti over Jones.

[Curry & Beer 5,444]

This was the thing that's stuck with me since Thursday. Pretty much the ONLY thing actually. I know it was NAB cup, and no-one cared... but some of our body-on-body stuff was actually WORSE than last season, if you could believe that. Watts, Bennell, and many of the younger kids don't have "it" when it comes to tackling. Sylvia, Jetta, McKenzie... these guys have that killer instinct. As you could always see with JMac... You have to WANT to tackle. It's not enough to just put your body close enough to the guy and hang off him. You have to clamp down. It's a real worry, especially at this stage. Maybe a big focus has been put on gameplan and skills over the off season... but the hardness factor is going to be as big a thing for us as anything.

I'm juuust a touch nervous about the softness creeping into the side. Not panicking yet... but I'm concerned.

yes good post, that was probably my biggest concern too along with the 2008 style completely rudderless/brainless kicking it to nobody, handballing to blokes under pressure etc

[Little Goffy 14,645]

Mediocre call?

I mean, there's obviously an issue there, but neither are bad players.

Moloney's better days are very very good, but he can look slow and can lack perception at times.

I think Moloney might have suffered a little from 'hey, I'm a leader now' syndrome - not so much being selfish as feeling like he has to 'show the way' in a heroic sense, rather than as the cog in the mighty machine we are building.

In their roles, they are both quality contributors and will get to contest after contest. It was an old theme of mine in the 'Brock+Jones+Moloney' debates - you need the hard bodies that will continue competing all day in finals.

[Pata 16]

To me Stef Martin doesnt looking like developing into half a footballer.

he doesnt get near it and has no intensity about him what so ever.

I hope im proven wrong but i havent seen anything in him yet to convince me otherwise.

Jury is still out on big Spencer and Strauss also......

[Je Roos Salem 661]

I'm not sure about this call, Jones can certainly be used as a tagger much more effectively than Moloney and Moloney is an in and under ball winner. So they are different in that sense. What I'm more worried about is where potential midfielders like Bennell, Morton, Tapscott, Gsyberts, Strauss, Blease, Bail, Evans etc. and where they will fit in. I really do think a midfield of Moloney, Jones, Sylvia, Scully, Trengove and perhaps Davey is good enough

[H_T 3,049]

I still would have kept Valenti over Jones.

Are you still serious ?

[Je Roos Salem 661]

To me Stef Martin doesnt looking like developing into half a footballer.

he doesnt get near it and has no intensity about him what so ever.

I hope im proven wrong but i havent seen anything in him yet to convince me otherwise.

Jury is still out on big Spencer and Strauss also......

I agree about Martin, won't make it. Showed plenty of signs in 08-09 but just doesn't really fit into our future. We certainly don't need him in defence, Jamar is WAY more efficient in the ruck. His best chance is probably in the forward line. Not sure about Spencer, I noticed in our last game he was much more bulked up than I'm used to. (this year hes listed as 105kg!) I'm hoping Strauss will become a good half back player

[Great_little_footy_team 8]

I think a few of you are being a bit harsh on Jones. Sure, over the last couple of years he hasn't demanded a spot in our best 22 but I think he deserves for us all to give him a go.

From all reports he was tearing it up during pre-season. He plays one pretty poor NAB cup game after he had injury concerns the weeks leading up to it and we all give up on him. He would die for this club, give him a few rounds of the proper season to show whether he has made any improvment...

[Matt Demon 1,482]

In a two or three years the midfield will look more like Scully, Trengove, Grimes, Gysberts, Viney, Mckenzie and the likes of Moloney and Jones will become depth players. Much like the Pies this year when you had a few younger boys step up and blokes like Lockyer couldn't get a game.

[H_T 3,049]

In a two or three years the midfield will look more like Scully, Trengove, Grimes, Gysberts, Viney, Mckenzie and the likes of Moloney and Jones will become depth players. Much like the Pies this year when you had a few younger boys step up and blokes like Lockyer couldn't get a game.

It would be awesome if Gysberts could become something like the Pendlebury of our side. If Moloney & Jones become as you say - depth players, it means our midfield and clearances should be much better than it is today. I hope that is the case.