David Hale

[Red Sox 2]

So many seem desperate NOT to use a second round pick for Hale ( or such ) . I have to ask these folk what exactly are we going to use it for anyway ? Ist pick for someone from the draft..a given..type? anyones guess even MFC dont know til they see whos there at 12. We have a stack of kids still in mothballs.. Any pick form second round is just another youngen wholl have to develop and be 2 years away..maybe.

The club is now well and truly in the here and now. It wants somne ready to go types to formalise the structure it has in mind.

Very Likely 2nd round is best utilised to get a player for 2011...not 2013

Yep, especially where big men are concerned.

No point fluffing around with PJ.

Let Fitz and Gawn develop.

A 2nd round pick for Hale, which we might get back with a Warnock trade anyway.

Edited October 3, 2010 by Demon Hill

[Hannabal 4]

He rucked in round in round 21 against the Eagles when Goldstein didn't play. Don't tell me what I can or cannot remember. Terrible would probably be overrating his effort.

Sorry, but I don't reckon you've a great handle on how good Hale is or otherwise; and your feigned indignation doesn't impress.

[beelzebub 23,382]

Yep, especially where big men are concerned.

No point fluffing around with PJ.

Let Fitz and Gawn develop.

A 2nd round pick for Hale, which we might get back with a Warnock trade anyway.

I agree... were still just as likely to have a few picks..so why not use one where theres something tangible to be gained. we still have the Rookie and PSd available.. Weve done reasonably well there of late. Just dont get the ridiculous paranoia surrounding using a pick for a player.

At some point in time we have to stop dicking around in the Pits and enter the race..for real. Constanlty future gazing into this draft player or that..all this potential that might happen one day.. what is this some form of denial whereby we only exist in the 'tomorrows" .

2011 is all but here..lets play for real ...huh

[sylvinator 96]

Been unable to post for a couple of days so forgive me for making this thread longer.

Hale/or any 'back-up ruck who can play forward' would have other benefits that are more difficult to see. Some of these are obvious and others are little side benefits:

1. Jamar gets to go forward more. We all know how dangerous he can be and the pack will fall when he is in it.

2. Decent ruck when Jamar is forward. We all cringed when Sylvia or Dunn went into the ruck.

3. Colin Sylvia doesn't have to worry about getting beaten up by someone with 20cms and 20kgs on him.

4. Pressure taken off Jurrah and Watts. If someone else is at the top of the square, the pack isn't on top of Watts or Jurrah. Knees suddenly go into Hale and not Watts or Jurrah. Someone has to contest the long ball in - I would prefer those two didn't - not yet at least.

5. Adds something to our forward structure. Jurrah or Watts might get the third defender and Green the fourth. Or this back-up ruck/Jamar may get someone they can monster.

6. We won't run Jamar into the ground. While I don't think Jamar will become more injury prone with overwork, I do think that his freshness suffered toward the end of the season.

And I don't think that comparisons to St Kilda are really fair - they play a more dour style of game. Very slow. And when their midfield isn't playing well their forwards creep up to the wing - exposing any tall forwards. We have to trust Trengove, Scully, McKenzie, Grimes, et al to win enough of the footy and get in down there quick.

Very good post, almost identical to my own thoughts. Whilst i don't rate Hale as a player at all, it seems clear that the benefits he would bring have very little to do with him being a quality player.

Very similar to rpfc, imo the 4 main benefits of recruiting Hale would be:

1. Protect Jamar from playing 95% ruck. If he did this year in year out he'd get injured no doubt.

2. Protect our teenage ruckman (Spenser, Gawn, Fitzpatrick) from having to be battered at afl level should Jamar be injured, and allow them to develop slowly and properly. I bet the FD hope none of those 3 ruckman are forced to play for the next 2 years out of necessity, however should Jamar be injured, our hand would be forced.

3. Protect non-ruckman from having to ruck- Dunn, Newton, Sylvia etc

4. Protect Watts & Jurrah from playing the role of number 1 target up forward

None of these benefits have anything to do with Hale as a player. Don't get me wrong, I still think he's very average footballer. But I can see benefit in the 4 outcomes above.

This is trade out of necessity, with a touch of desperation, rather than a trade of going out and recruiting a quality player to improve the playing list. As long as its viewed as this, a trade for a 2nd rounder might be acceptable.I think the FD is [censored] scared of what would happen should Jamar not play 22 games next year. Assuming PJ is delisted (which he 100% should be), we'd get thrashed in games if we were forced to play Spenser and Gawn before they were ready.

[Jarka 767]

First of all, have you considered that the FD are offering a second round pick because there's a potential trade on the table that gets us a second round pick back again (such as letting Maric or Warnock go)?

So? Are you happy to through away a pick just because we'll trade away a depth player to get back into that round?

Second of all, do you honestly expect our second pick in this year's draft to play in Round 1? He won't.

That's not what I said. Reread my post and try again.

But to say he's no chance at all is equally ridiculous

His history and the direction that the game is headed is against him. There has been no satisfactory explanation from the pro-Halers regarding this, just that his 'type' of player is what we need. (That initself is doubtful).

Hale is terrible below his knees and he fails to use his size to advantage, he also struggles with injuries. That is not the player we should be targetting to fill the role of big bodied forward/back up ruck.

I want someone to break packs open for Watts and Jurrah, Hale is not that player

Many on here seem to think Maric is the bees' knees, despite no output at all at AFL level. I was wondering if you thought he will still end up making it.

It's completely irrelevant to this discussion, or are you just trying to deflect?

Two completely different players fulfilling two completely different roles. I still don't see the relevance.

[Jarka 767]

Sorry, but I don't reckon you've a great handle on how good Hale is or otherwise; and your feigned indignation doesn't impress.

Well then, why don't you tell me exactly how good Hale is, I'll even give you a starting point.

http://www.footywire.com/afl/footy/pc-kangaroos--david-hale

Don't try that crap on me H, keep to the discussion

[e25 5]

I fully understand the positives of having someone like Hale in the forward line when we are going forward...

But how does he affect our forward line pressure?

I don't want a bloke the full back is going to be able run off and rebound at will.

I haven't seen Hale for some time, but I think of him as a plodder.

[dee-luded 2,959]

I agree... were still just as likely to have a few picks..so why not use one where theres something tangible to be gained. we still have the Rookie and PSd available.. Weve done reasonably well there of late. Just dont get the ridiculous paranoia surrounding using a pick for a player.

At some point in time we have to stop dicking around in the Pits and enter the race..for real. Constanlty future gazing into this draft player or that..all this potential that might happen one day.. what is this some form of denial whereby we only exist in the 'tomorrows" .

2011 is all but here..lets play for real ...huh

We are in the game already 'Bel', If we go the way your suggesting then we should make a massive play for the best young forward going about. Jack Riewoldt, or another. throw everything at them.

But, How & where do you think the Saints/ Dogs/ Cats/ are thinking they fit the future Now. And Sydney. Sliding into middleocrity. Saints & Dogs fooled themselves by thinking their list was not only very good but they could make it great.

Dressing Mutton in a Pure merino Jacket, just won't cut it when fine dining.

We have the kids, but don't stop the pressure from below of constant U-18's drafts.

We can infill over the next 2 years as the kids we have develop & the ones we recruit behind them keep the Talent coming on. Then, if things go awry, we have fresh buds emerging from below.

[beelzebub 23,382]

Where do folk come off thinking that simply because you might like a player that he is attainable ?? Its Rubbish really. Riewoldt has signed with the Tiges..Hes going no where. Nor are many others.

Youre counter arguing.. suggesting we wait for the kids and then pressure them from below with more draft picks. There is no doubt some talent but we know that it all takes time. what to do in the meantime whilst trying to be as competitive as you can... stand idly twidling thumbs waiting for player A or B to evolve into the u-beaut incarnation of a particular role. Of course not We only really lack a body to occupy the square with some realistic expectation of delivery. It doesnt actually need to be "one person" per se and this is where a shared role via say Russian/Hale has appeal.

.

Hale for mine is a decent stop gap. We have tried in-filling from within with less than ideal results....again...thats why the club is looking outside. No one to date has stepped up to the role from within, and teh club obviously doubts anbyone will now overnight

[Doggo 32]

I'd imagine PJ will be delisted this year, and as ordinary as he is, Hale is an improvement on PJ and would fill the 'void' left by his departure.

[old dee 23,870]

Not sure Hale is worth our 2nd rnd pick, but I have full trust in our FD and believe they know what there doing.

Do think we need to get another pick elsewhere if we give up our 2nd rounder!

Wether he is worth it or not I have thought right from the start that is what it will take.

Back two weeks ago DB said he might use a high draft pick on this type of player!

So I think it is on.

[old55 23,687]

I haven't seen much of Hale recently and I reckon it's a fair bet no-one else here has either. Looking at his ruck stats from years ago is meaningless, he had a reasonable goal return early in 2010. I reckon the FD would have a better idea - Dunbar and Prendergast. Tim Harrington is from North.

He's the type and age we need that's what I do know - my main concern is not his rucking or marking - he needs to be competitive, it's his defensive ability.

Gysberts, Tapscott, Fitzpatrick, Blease, Strauss, Maric, Petterd - we've got a fair amount of unrealised 2nd round or thereabouts talent on our list. I'm not shy of using a 2nd rounder on a specific role player and we may get back into it anyway.

Mitch Clark would appear worth pursuing but I seem to recall some question marks when he was drafted. He'd cost 12 + player.

If either of them measure up they'd be worth it I reckon - it's a piece we're missing. I think we can probably draft for our other deficiencies.

[rpfc 28,734]

I fully understand the positives of having someone like Hale in the forward line when we are going forward...

But how does he affect our forward line pressure?

I don't want a bloke the full back is going to be able run off and rebound at will.

I haven't seen Hale for some time, but I think of him as a plodder.

Is Jamar a plodder when he goes forward?

I would trust Mahoney to re-structure our forward line and keep us dangerous.

[titan_uranus 25,042]

That's not what I said. Reread my post and try again.

Alright then. What did you mean by: "For a second round pick trade in a strong draft I would expect a player to walk into our starting 22 and be an immediate contributor" exactly? 'Walk into our starting 22 suggests to me that he plays Round 1. Oops.

His history and the direction that the game is headed is against him. There has been no satisfactory explanation from the pro-Halers regarding this, just that his 'type' of player is what we need. (That initself is doubtful).

What direction is the game heading in? The one Collingwood's taking it in? With Leigh Brown?

It's completely irrelevant to this discussion, or are you just trying to deflect?

Two completely different players fulfilling two completely different roles. I still don't see the relevance.

Don't worry about it. I confuse myself sometimes. Such as on this occasion...

[timD 994]

I haven't seen much of Hale recently and I reckon it's a fair bet no-one else here has either. Looking at his ruck stats from years ago is meaningless, he had a reasonable goal return early in 2010. I reckon the FD would have a better idea - Dunbar and Prendergast. Tim Harrington is from North.

He's the type and age we need that's what I do know - my main concern is not his rucking or marking - he needs to be competitive, it's his defensive ability.

Gysberts, Tapscott, Fitzpatrick, Blease, Strauss, Maric, Petterd - we've got a fair amount of unrealised 2nd round or thereabouts talent on our list. I'm not shy of using a 2nd rounder on a specific role player and we may get back into it anyway.

Mitch Clark would appear worth pursuing but I seem to recall some question marks when he was drafted. He'd cost 12 + player.

If either of them measure up they'd be worth it I reckon - it's a piece we're missing. I think we can probably draft for our other deficiencies.

I agree in the main, old55, but I would add that I'd be unwilling to draft out of pick 12 for Hale under any circumstances. With so much talent off-limits with these drafts, I think that getting as big a shot at top-end is worth a lot. Depriving other strugglers is also worth doing.

[e25 5]

Is Jamar a plodder when he goes forward?

I would trust Mahoney to re-structure our forward line and keep us dangerous.

Yeah, fair call.

I'd back Mahoney also. I think he's a great coach, unlike some of the posters on this board.

If you don't want to take my word for it, ask Brad Green.

In his B&F acceptance speech he singled out Mahoney in particular for helping him improve his game to AA level.

[Dee Fan 3,247]

Listening to SEN before and they reckon Essendon will have a dip at getting Hale to back up Hille and allow Ryder to go forward. I'm not saying they always get it right but that's the word they have.

[dee-luded 2,959]

Where do folk come off thinking that simply because you might like a player that he is attainable ?? Its Rubbish really. Riewoldt has signed with the Tiges..Hes going no where. Nor are many others.

Youre counter arguing.. suggesting we wait for the kids and then pressure them from below with more draft picks. There is no doubt some talent but we know that it all takes time. what to do in the meantime whilst trying to be as competitive as you can... stand idly twidling thumbs waiting for player A or B to evolve into the u-beaut incarnation of a particular role. Of course not We only really lack a body to occupy the square with some realistic expectation of delivery. It doesnt actually need to be "one person" per se and this is where a shared role via say Russian/Hale has appeal.

.

Hale for mine is a decent stop gap. We have tried in-filling from within with less than ideal results....again...thats why the club is looking outside. No one to date has stepped up to the role from within, and teh club obviously doubts anbyone will now overnight

Why did you go of on that tangent?

The gist of what I was saying was that If we want to go that way of recruiting Mature established players, (instead of the youth policy), that we should go all the way, & Not half way. Do it properly, or don't do it.

If you think Hale alone will take us to the Neverland, I disagree. I'm happy to give up a pick in the 30 to 40ish for him. But I don't value him, or the Strategy, more than pick 30.

I agree he is a stop gap, & a handy one at that. But if we get any more picks inside 30,,, Then I would Not trade them away.

EDIT: It does take time for the kids to come on. But some do come on quickly, & some take the normal time. We have time, & if it takes longer, thatsd OK, because we will still get there. But if we try to short circuit things & rush it, We may fall off, short of the mark.

Look at some of the sides, Doggies, did what seemed logical with mature experienced players, PFFFFT. Lucky they have some kids to come on or they would be all the way back down the bottom again. Now they will probably go down to 8/9/10...

Sainters are in the brine, atmo.

Edited October 3, 2010 by dee-luded

[Al`s DEMONS 0]

the ruck is a unique/specialist position. there are now 17 clubs and only a handful of competent, dominant, game breaking ruckmen in the game. we are fortunate to have one of them. there is a train of thought that any player traded for must be a champion. hale would serve a short term problem. a handy back up in the ruck , but by no means a champion. if we really want another quality ruck(short term) cox would be the other option. cox would cost us too much. im sure hale is educated enough to read a newspaper. everyone including our own players are aware if you dont perform your out. if we were to get hale he would not be keeping any of our young up and coming stars out of the team. with regards to the forward line, before any mention of hale i had our forward line as

jurrah green aussie

petterd watts dunn

when the ruckmen rests forward ,does green have a run on the ball? does someone go to the bench? having multiple options is becoming a good thing

[Hannabal 4]

Well then, why don't you tell me exactly how good Hale is, I'll even give you a starting point.

http://www.footywire.com/afl/footy/pc-kangaroos--david-hale

Don't try that crap on me H, keep to the discussion

For a second I thought you were going to ignore my post.

My initial thoughts on Hale weren't overly positive and I posted as much in this thread. Then I began to wonder why the FD would make this call. I take solace in the fact that I don't reckon they've made one bad move in 3 years, so I thought I better at least challenge my own thinking.

I remember Hales 7, or so, goals against the Cats. I remember him being tall, skinny and lumbering. Like most his size I remember him not being great below his knees. I remember him getting dropped. I remember he had a really good year and McIntosh being on the trade table at the end of it. But I don't remember much else. I haven't had cause to watch him closely enough. I have scattered memories, but not enough for me to have a definitive viewpoint one way or the other. My recollections aren't so strong that I'd categorically say the the FD are wrong. I had an initial gut feeling, but they've been wrong before.

I admire your expert player recall.

[trout 385]

I can not believe how many people are happy with the idea of picking up David Hale. Sure he might help us out short term, but he wont help us win a flag so why bother with him.

[BAMF 4,385]

I can not believe how many people are happy with the idea of picking up David Hale. Sure he might help us out short term, but he wont help us win a flag so why bother with him.

I think a lot of people can see the hole that he will fill.

I really don't want to give up our first 2 picks though.

[Harrisonrules 273]

Some discussion has centred around Kossy to the Demons, mostly negative. David Hale has been touted as one marking forward we might very well be interested in. But is he any better than Kossy. Kossy just played in an

AFL Grand Final albeit without success. David Hale played in the VFL grand final and hardly set the world on fire. He hasn't played at AFL level for most of the year in a modet team. Is this just the usual Demon dreaming again. Have spoken to two North supporters. One claimed he has been passed by two maybe three better and younger players. Yes he can mark, can kick for goal and is a good tap ruckman, but would frustrate my friend because he wouldn't put his body on the line enough or more importantly into a pack. I spoke to a North supporter sitting in front of me at the Grand Final (I had lost interest in the way the game was going). His comment was that when the others passed him they tried to make him a forward but it didn't really work. Mind you Leigh Brown left the Kangas and he's doing Okay. Maybe Hale needs another opportunity, but then maybe not

[The Big Ticket 94]

Those two players hardly have the build of Leigh Brown.

Brown hasn't improved really, he's just fitted in nicely with Collingwood's plans.

[Ned 156]

David Hale is a spud.