Who will be out the door at seasons end?

[tess 19]

Sylvia, Newton and Bell should be put on the market. I'd take a second round pick for any of these (although we'll be lucky to get a third round pick for Newton).

Wasn't Bell your lovechild last season?

Please dont adopt another player this year, we dont need another kiss of death.

[Jaded No More 58,442]

Wasn't Bell your lovechild last season?

Please dont adopt another player this year, we dont need another kiss of death.

Bell very much remains one of my favourite players, however I am not completely blinded by my love for him and nobody comes ahead of the MFC. If we can get a good draft pick for him, then I think it would be to our benefit to take the deal.

Bell will be a serviceable player for us, and if he stays I'll be thrilled, but I'd be even more thrilled if we got a good pick for him and used that pick to get a key forward or a pacey midfielder, which right now we are desperately in need of (more so than a player who carries Bell's attributes).

Robbo has been my favourite player for 10 years, but had we traded him last year for a good deal I would have accepted that and moved on. Not because I'd enjoy watching Robbo in a different jumper, but because at the end of the day the club has to do whatever it can to move the list forward. Bell could be an integral part of a premiership team, and his form last year showed that he is capable of being a very good player, but at the same time he is not irreplaceable and his form right now does not justify putting him on the 'untouchable' list.

When you're on the bottom of the ladder with 1 win and a miserable percentage, you really need to drop the sentiments and have a good hard look at who is dispensable and which player offers a market value that is equal to or greater than the value they provide to the team.

[Dappa Dan 2,188]

Craig Cameron = Pathetic

Best thing he has ever done for us is leave.

Twit...

A year ago he was our favourite... What a pack of geniuses demonlanders are when their side is going badly, how they jump on our recruiter for being the one to blame. When we come good in a couple of years, there's about 10-12 CAC rippers you'll be singing the praises of... Stop cluttering up the boards with this self-serving crap.

Wasn't Bell your lovechild last season?

Please dont adopt another player this year, we dont need another kiss of death.

I only answer because I was Jaded's Lieutenant in the Bell-love-in...

I have had to explain my respect for Bell. I never thought he was going to be our long-lost star... he was only ever going to be a good solid defender...

Trading him, if it's for the right price is of COURSE the best thing to do. But only for a high second rounder... the problem with going any lower is the fact we lose a solid player with 150 more games in him, and have to start again with another pick in the teens.

We need defenders, as Whelan will be gone in the coming years, and we're not awash with good small running defenders with straight kicks, who love the rough stuff...

[BAMF 3,787]

Brad Green is peeking right now. we can get a first round draft pick for him, we should take it.

A good second round draft pick is good for Bruce.

No one will touch Bell. He's Better off being retained.

What are the thoughts of Jamar for a 3rd rounder?

[rpfc 27,564]

Brad Green is peeking right now. we can get a first round draft pick for him, we should take it.

A good second round draft pick is good for Bruce.

No one will touch Bell. He's Better off being retained.

What are the thoughts of Jamar for a 3rd rounder?

Jamar is contracted for 2009. They would only trade if we were very confident of picking up a ruckman in one of the drafts or that White is going to stick around for another year.

Personally, I would move him on for the right price, maybe a pick in the region of 25 - 40.

[Freak 100]

okay okay. it's my turn

All of this talk about Newton being traded is a joke. He had a great season last season, and the fact that he can't crack the seniors is NOT a reflection of how he will play once in the seniors! Almost every time Newton plays in the Seniors, he kicks a goal or two and I like the way he plays .

I don't believe we will get naitanui, I think Essendon or Fremantle will end up with less wins. So i'm guessing Daniel Rich.

Mcdonald will not be going, one year past winning back to back B+F's is hardly well past his peak. Easily staying.

Sylvia has been criticised for not getting his hands on the pill enough over his career, yet now when he is getting plenty of the footy(despite playing off the HB line), people are complaining. At the end of the day, he has improved on an area of his game that is, 'finding the footy'

Carroll will stay. You need a tough FB down there to show the ropes for the younger guys. Personally, I don;t think Garland is going to do all that much. His recent success has either been due to other players zoning off to help him out, or poor delivery into the forward line from opposing teams' midfielders.

Yze will be gone but he is easily in our best 18, but the youth policy has stamped him out.

White will stay: He is our only ruckman and ruckmen aren't as effective with hitouts anymore but White is equally as effective as any other ruckman around the ground bar Cox.

CJ: Should go.

miller: Should go, but won't.

[Little Goffy 12,701]

Recapping -

It's absurd to assume it'll take more than three years just to get into finals again - that's Carlton thinking, that is. Or Terry Wallet's spin at work.

Green is one of our finest players, and will shortly be just about our only experienced player as our current crop are much older than he is, and he's just about the only one not prone to injury.

His versaitility means he will be able to use that experience to 'help out' all over the ground.

But what REALLY bugs me is this over-emphasis on draft picks.

The bizarre equation that 'early picks = flags' is just a little crazy. Again, it's a spin thing. Even with top ten picks, Hawthorn could just as easily ended up with John Meesen and Tom Williams (who?) as with Lance Franklin and Jordan Lewis.

In 2003 their first pick was number 25, Harry Miller (Who?), who coincidentally has played the most games (18) of any Hawk drafted that year.

Or maybe it was pick 6 (Beau Dowler), pick 18 (Max Bailey) and pick 22 (Beau Muston) from 2005 who made all the difference for Hawthorn? For sure I'll credit Xavier Ellis and Grant Birchall as players, but frankly we did just as well with Jones, Buckley and Bartram, even though trading so much for Pickett was a mistake.

Mitch Thorpe, Brent Renouf and Jarryd Morton from 1st or 2nd round 2006. Not a player over five games from that draft for Hawthorn yet.

Can I make my point absoultely and explicitly clear -

Hawthorn's resurgence has been built on a group of mid-age and mid-quality players learning to work together as an effective team.

Jordan Lewis is the only top-quality player they have acquired from a traded-in pick (number 7, 2004) and except for the inspired selections of Roughead and Franklin, also in 2004, their recent drafts have been poor.

Should the Hawks have traded Crawford? They could have got Beau Dowler AND Harry Miller for him.

Again - DRAFT PICKS DO NOT EQUAL PREMIERSHIPS.

[Rogue 585]

Sylvia, Newton and Bell should be put on the market. I'd take a second round pick for any of these (although we'll be lucky to get a third round pick for Newton).

You've lost faith in Bell now, Jaded? What do you get for a second round pick? Not sure it'd be much better than what you see in Bell now.

Additionally, anyone over the age of 28 can pack their bags. If Robbo can come back from injury, he stays because he is still contracted and frankly he is the only forward we've got. Junior can have another year if he so wishes.

White, Yze and Holland should be forced to retire. Bruce should be traded, get whatever we can while we can. Likewise Carroll.

Whelan may well retire if he can't get himself on the field.

Jamar is contracted I believe, and IMO he is an insurance policy we have to have.

We tried to trade Carroll last year, so I'm not sure that'll be too successful.

If Jamar's only an 'insurance policy', and you're delisting White, who rucks for us next year?

Talk of trading Green is bizarre, idiotic and offensive.

To a large extent, I tend to agree with you re: Green. However, I don't think it's idiotic to talk of trading Green, given that he's one of the most likely to get us a decent pick - we don't have much else to offer. That said, I'd be very surprised if we trade him.

Trading him, if it's for the right price is of COURSE the best thing to do.

While originally about Bell, this applies to [virtually] every single player on our list.

End of the day, I don't think we'll trade away too many players for high picks because we won't get offered what we think they're worth to us.

[beelzebub 22,243]

part deux:

There are those that wil ljust go or have gone by natural attrition and or injury. This leaves the ones that wil be decided upon by way of they value to the team.. Dappa has already hit this point on the head in as much as its not always a slight agaisnt someone simply to debate their continued presence in the red and blue, but their FIT into the team going forward.

If you were to have any players on teh dont touch list..they would be few Davey, Jones, Aussieand Bater come to mind and now folks I seriously struggle. Junior is still servicable and almost untradable..let him continue if hes up to it.

I would have thought at seasons start that this would be Oozes last. I still dont like a lot about his game but as others fall around him we may need to take caution in throwing the baby out with the bath water as it were. If he is useful ..we might do well to think about one more year. However this is tortally dependent on the seaon as it unwinds firths ( really unwinding now..lol ) He's not a first option to me..but a genuine second.

Frosty..well .. he's definitely tring to redifine himself on the turf and with mixed results. He stil lneeds to improve but id consider keeping him for now unless a reasonable ofer made ( this is up from just trade him )

Carrrol. Hes not our hope at FB. but in the short term he may have some use if he can become a more than useful half back flanker. Whilst his handball is attroocious ( not alone he can pick off wioth a kick.

Green.hmm. is this where the wise ppl use his tradability as he peaks to get real value ?? Id be in this camp..see what we can get and thendecide on THAT !! Bruce..god ..who would give us anything now hes gone totally off the boil. A terrible handpass.. unable to kick to a position and yet his set shots are a littel up this year. Only salvation is to make him a dedicated tagger...he is prety fair at that. otherwise trade.

Meeson ?? well yet to fire a shot in anger...maybe he wont.. the punts not paying off hereis it. Can he make a fist of a KPP ?? handy if he could.. might have to release him some way.

Russian. time to go Jamar !!!

Jeff.. what do we do with Jeff?? Either we keep for next as insurance..or he retires off own boot. Have to wait.

Buckley...is coming along.. keep

Garland.. coming along...keep

Weetra..done ya dash me matey.. delist

Bode....doesnt Bode well does it... probably a delist

Bell...ding dong its trading time

Chris Johnson... trade, delist

Frawley... showing a littel bit..persever for next year.

Dunn... what a disappointment this year.. not high on the 'keep' list

Batram.. someone go look for the real one..this guys an imposter at present..

Paul Johnson. Keep.. KPP or back up ruck..if that doesnt work out next year..revisit

Morton..keep for sure..( feed him lots and lock him in the gym)

Petterd..probably keep for sure.. might entertain a trade..

Brocky and Beamer. Keep McLean , someone teach him more cards for his deck..a bit one dimensional at present. Beamer..trade

Warnock and Wheatas.. prefer to keep both...not untouchable though.

Juice.. go find him some.. some jugle variety , He needs to get back in the swing..or he is staring at teh door.

Sylvia.. hot and cold.. would entertain a trade.

probably forgotten some.. if they are the kids..they are ours anyway for now

As you can tell I hold littel nostalgia for keeping for keepings sake. The sad thing is very few write there own get out of jail free cards !!

Some are well worth keeping and developing, some will only be there by luck next year until the end of that yea, when they will be dispensed with as others come on.

Again..its all about their value to the TEAM..not any individuality..

The footy dept have their work cut out for them at end of year .

[titan_uranus 22,549]

part deux:

There are those that wil ljust go or have gone by natural attrition and or injury. This leaves the ones that wil be decided upon by way of they value to the team.. Dappa has already hit this point on the head in as much as its not always a slight agaisnt someone simply to debate their continued presence in the red and blue, but their FIT into the team going forward.

If you were to have any players on teh dont touch list..they would be few Davey, Jones, Aussieand Bater come to mind and now folks I seriously struggle. Junior is still servicable and almost untradable..let him continue if hes up to it.

...

You forgot Rivers - surely he's in the don't touch list.

[beelzebub 22,243]

You forgot Rivers - surely he's in the don't touch list.

See I told you Id forget someone. Yes he would be on my please dont touch list. But if someone came along with a really really good offer.. Id look at it and consider it on its merits.

Th eproblem with Jared and Beamer..and Brocky and far too many bloody footballers everywhere is the dreaded OP and other scurges. Being practical you need to weigh up how many games at full tilt. how many at 90% ..how many below par out of a particualr player you might expect as a result of this and do the math. if it doesnt come out above teh line then youd really be a mug not to look at trades etc. Again this doesnt detract from any player per se.. just the overall fit and contribution to it.

You have to get quite mercenary about all this if you actually want to achieve. Cruel yes.. Such is life. Again I want a flag.. cant care less who wears the guernseys on the day, and why should it.

[rpfc 27,564]

I want Moloney to stay. There would be no value during trade week and his kick will be valuable when we get this run and carry business right. He also gets his fair share of clearances and tackles.

But more than that, his attitude around the club is great. Notably well received whenever representing the club off the field and fiercely proud on the field. Anyone watching him get frustrated Neita-like when we are losing can attest to that.

And, lastly, his first year at the club was brilliant. He come 4th in the Bluey and showed that when he gets some footy under his belt after a couple of injury plagued seasons he will be a good player for the Melbourne footy club.

[Rhino Richards 1,467]

Can I make my point absoultely and explicitly clear -

Hawthorn's resurgence has been built on a group of mid-age and mid-quality players learning to work together as an effective team.

Jordan Lewis is the only top-quality player they have acquired from a traded-in pick (number 7, 2004) and except for the inspired selections of Roughead and Franklin, also in 2004, their recent drafts have been poor.

Should the Hawks have traded Crawford? They could have got Beau Dowler AND Harry Miller for him.

Again - DRAFT PICKS DO NOT EQUAL PREMIERSHIPS.

If you do your study, the Hawks have built their list over six years from receiving a number of draft picks from having finished low on the ladder and from making judicial decisions on senior players like Thompson, Hay and Everitt. The mid age players you crow about are a number of very good picks achieved in the 2001 draft. It was a good legacy from Schwab to Clarkson that the six choices they had have all been good pick ups.

The picks provided from those trades supplemented draft picks accredited from the picks they got from their ladder position and a couple of PPs.

It allowed Hawthorn to develop a drafting strategy in the way they used all the picks. To deride trading because the pick you got with it did not succeed is erroneous and simplistic and ignores other issues of poor choice of that pick.

And if draft picks do not allow you to build a team that ultimately wins a premiership then how pray tell do you achieve the nucleus of one?....Through the PSD.

[beelzebub 22,243]

I want Moloney to stay. There would be no value during trade week and his kick will be valuable when we get this run and carry business right. He also gets his fair share of clearances and tackles.

But more than that, his attitude around the club is great. Notably well received whenever representing the club off the field and fiercely proud on the field. Anyone watching him get frustrated Neita-like when we are losing can attest to that.

And, lastly, his first year at the club was brilliant. He come 4th in the Bluey and showed that when he gets some footy under his belt after a couple of injury plagued seasons he will be a good player for the Melbourne footy club.

All wonderful sentiments. and that swhat they are sentiments. we're all entiteld to them but they in themselves do nothing on the filed. There is really only one litmus test in this game and that is success. More the point its success in the here and now.and ..next week. That a player was wonderful two three yearsa go is great nostalgia. Doesnt put teh bread on the table this week. does it ?

Beamers game is even more one dimensional than Brocky's is becoming at times. Granted on hi sday Moloney can be good. He does go forward and Im stil a fan of when apt , kick it to a contest and put pressure on the defence ( for this you do however need a forward line.. , note to self..go buy one..lol )

Premiership points are strangley enough only awarded on the field , on the day. Its in this vogue I choose to analyse anyones continued presence at the club. I hope the club does too. Past players ( even such as Neeta ) are a different kettle. But still the simple criterion of what can they do for the club is still sound

[jumbo returns 6,504]

once again, flawed logic rears its ugly head. to GET value you've got to TRADE value. the current crop of names that have been bandied about are UNTRADEABLE.

here's an idea from left field. jared rivers. body is showing signs of not standing up to the rigours of league footy, is physically underdeveloped, (davey has surpassed him), looks tiny against the power forwards, he's played half a dozen games in two years and yet attracts a fat contract.

think outside the sentiment - let's get this team right.

btw, colin sylvia should be the first to go. someone else will be stooged by his blond hair and massive build, but can't play footy to save himself.

[BennytheJet 15]

btw, colin sylvia should be the first to go. someone else will be stooged by his blond hair and massive build, but can't play footy to save himself.

Hi all,

this is my first post, ive been over in london for work this year. A melb supporter all my life and when im "lucky" enough to be sent a dvd of a game here and there, i must say its a painful experience..

Now please dont crucify me if im way out of left field here as i dont intimately know how the players are going individually this year, but this talk of getting rid of youngsters at seasons end is surely irrational..

Anyone under 24 surely deserves a reprieve - i dont think anyone appreciates how difficult it is for a youngster playing in a team thats getting belted each week, has lost their spiritual leader to retirement, and is copping it constantly week in week out in the media.

Blokes like sylvia and bell, whilst i hear arent doing too well, at least appear to be putting in 100% on the field. Thats the ONLY thing they should be judged on at seasons end. Skills and decision making will improve when confidence, morale and the calibre of experienced players in the side improve. (Also i spoke to someone in the know who says that sylvia, whilst a but of a [censored] off the field, has been busting his gut to get his body right but has lost a lot of his power due to that dreaded op.)

Even yougsters at carlton and essendon have blokes like judd, stevens, lloyd, lucas to help and guide them. Who have our youngsters got??? White? Robbo?

And frawley a wasted pick?? get real - which key defender has ever shown in their first 2 or 3 years (rivers aside). bock, rutten, scarlett, glass - they ALL take time.

It sends a bad msg making an example of young players. Get rid of the bruces, whites, robertsons etc. who are not gunna be part of the future. Once theyre gone, blokes like mclean, jones, sylvia, and bell etc. are going to have to step up and be the new batch of leaders. Challenge them at seasons end to start a new era at the MFC, and reassess end of 2009.

Well thats my two cents worth anyway. Again, i caveat this post with the fact that im halfway across the road so please let me know if im off the ball.

Cheers,

Benny

[Guest redandbluethruandthru]

Yze_Magic........................Sylvia .......Come on.

Your crack pipe must be well used. The bloke is a pathetic waste of a spot on our senior list. No-one will want him. Ego too big, performances too low. If he was a horse I would have put a bullet between his eyes a long time ago. Sad thing is I reckon the dogs wouldn't even eat his carcass.

[beelzebub 22,243]

once again, flawed logic rears its ugly head. to GET value you've got to TRADE value. the current crop of names that have been bandied about are UNTRADEABLE.

here's an idea from left field. jared rivers. body is showing signs of not standing up to the rigours of league footy, is physically underdeveloped, (davey has surpassed him), looks tiny against the power forwards, he's played half a dozen games in two years and yet attracts a fat contract.

think outside the sentiment - let's get this team right.

btw, colin sylvia should be the first to go. someone else will be stooged by his blond hair and massive build, but can't play footy to save himself.

In all reality I tend to agree. There is a core id rather not touch if possible if only that they are a framework to build around, not so much that any one is untradable.

Sentiment wil kill you every time when assessing the real value of your team. Al we want is a good balanced team thats fit and capable..who that is I really dont care. I want the Demons to win..not this or that bloke !!

[titan_uranus 22,549]

Anyone under 24 surely deserves a reprieve - i dont think anyone appreciates how difficult it is for a youngster playing in a team thats getting belted each week, has lost their spiritual leader to retirement, and is copping it constantly week in week out in the media.

Even yougsters at carlton and essendon have blokes like judd, stevens, lloyd, lucas to help and guide them. Who have our youngsters got??? White? Robbo?

That's a good point re: experience. There are no ageing leaders/stars in our team like those you've mentioned who can guide our youth. I guess that's why Neitz stayed on this year.

[tess 19]

Yze_Magic........................Sylvia .......Come on.

Your crack pipe must be well used. The bloke is a pathetic waste of a spot on our senior list. No-one will want him. Ego too big, performances too low. If he was a horse I would have put a bullet between his eyes a long time ago. Sad thing is I reckon the dogs wouldn't even eat his carcass.

I guarantee a few coaches will think they can turn him into a good footballer.

At what price remains to be seen. A third round is my prediction.

[Demons 32 235]

Yze_Magic........................Sylvia .......Come on.

Your crack pipe must be well used. The bloke is a pathetic waste of a spot on our senior list. No-one will want him. Ego too big, performances too low. If he was a horse I would have put a bullet between his eyes a long time ago. Sad thing is I reckon the dogs wouldn't even eat his carcass.

waste of a spot?

No that title goes to Bode/Jamar.

SYLVIA isn't that bad people, has actually been decent this year and if you all put your bias aside you would see a player who tries his heart out every week.

His body is going to be getting back to a normal state soon enough, hopefully he gets put in the Ryan O'keefe position and you will all eat your words.

I guarantee!!! Sylvia will be at Melbourne for at least the next 3 years.

[Hannabal 4]

Sylvia is a very disappointing pick 3, but as the years go on it's extraordinary how bad a draft 2003 really was. Isn't it just Melbourne's luck that we had two top 5 picks in a terrible draft year. If you look down the list in 03 it is virtually devoid of top notch talent. If Sylvia was pick 48 in that draft we'd have a completely different mindset when rating him.

As difficult as it can be, from a list management point of view we now need to judge him purely on his output/merit and try to disregard where he was picked in the draft. Cos right now his draft no. doesn't matter as we move forward.

Some may still think he's a dud. Fair enough, but I feel he's better than that, albeit he has limitations. I don't see much point in trading him, because we won't get enough for him. Trade him for pick 38 ? Too risky as there's every liklihood the player at 38 won't be better and could be far worse.

There's merit in trading Rivers if we could snare a pick around 10-15. It's being hotly debated on another forum. I can see the pros and cons, but the top 20 in the upcoming draft are supposedly outstanding and Rivers hardly gets on the park and usually doesn't take the oppositions best. He's a very good young player and important to our structure, but we really need to orchestrate another early draft pick and that will only happen by giving up something good. I'd seriously consider Rivers in this scenario. We have to plunder the best talent possible in this draft. It's never been more crucial.

[titan_uranus 22,549]

Sylvia is a very disappointing pick 3, but as the years go on it's extraordinary how bad a draft 2003 really was. Isn't it just Melbourne's luck that we had two top 5 picks in a terrible draft year. If you look down the list in 03 it is virtually devoid of top notch talent. If Sylvia was pick 48 in that draft we'd have a completely different mindset when rating him.

As difficult as it can be, from a list management point of view we now need to judge him purely on his output/merit and try to disregard where he was picked in the draft. Cos right now his draft no. doesn't matter as we move forward.

Some may still think he's a dud. Fair enough, but I feel he's better than that, albeit he has limitations. I don't see much point in trading him, because we won't get enough for him. Trade him for pick 38 ? Too risky as there's every liklihood the player at 38 won't be better and could be far worse.

There's merit in trading Rivers if we could snare a pick around 10-15. It's being hotly debated on another forum. I can see the pros and cons, but the top 20 in the upcoming draft are supposedly outstanding and Rivers hardly gets on the park and usually doesn't take the oppositions best. He's a very good young player and important to our structure, but we really need to orchestrate another early draft pick and that will only happen by giving up something good. I'd seriously consider Rivers in this scenario. We have to plunder the best talent possible in this draft. It's never been more crucial.

When (and I know it's not often) Rivers plays, we almost invariably play better. He is a crucial part of our defence going forward. I know this draft is very important, but I don't think Rivers should go.

You're right about the 2003 draft, but wasn't Cooney pick 1?

[Hannabal 4]

When (and I know it's not often) Rivers plays, we almost invariably play better. He is a crucial part of our defence going forward. I know this draft is very important, but I don't think Rivers should go.

You're right about the 2003 draft, but wasn't Cooney pick 1?

Rivers is a good player, but he's not a true KPP and he doesn't kick goals. For me he's expendable for the right deal, but I understand that many supporters will writhe in anger at such a thought. I'll do anything that's going to improve our list going forward and give us the best prospects of developing a premiership list.

And yes Cooney was pick 1. in 03. So ? We didn't have pick one and he's about the only A grader out of that pathetic draft.

[Jarka 767]

There's merit in trading Rivers if we could snare a pick around 10-15. It's being hotly debated on another forum. I can see the pros and cons, but the top 20 in the upcoming draft are supposedly outstanding and Rivers hardly gets on the park and usually doesn't take the oppositions best. He's a very good young player and important to our structure, but we really need to orchestrate another early draft pick and that will only happen by giving up something good. I'd seriously consider Rivers in this scenario. We have to plunder the best talent possible in this draft. It's never been more crucial.

Trading Rivers would definitely be a brave move, not sure if it would be smart one though. Rivers brings alot to the team, even when he doesn't play. His leadership and experience are invaluable to the other defenders, particularly important as we're rebuilding the defence and our future KPP's have only played a handful of games.

It would have to be a great offer for me to be happy to trade him, absolute minimum would be a top 10 pick.