Post Match Discussion - Round 12

[Binmans PA 26,033]

24 minutes ago, Rogue said:

Lots of talk so far about how we were getting smashed in the clearances, but I reckon our decision-making and execution going forward was putrid.

So many times we failed to hit a target or even kick to advantage when going forward. Adding insult to injury, at times we were too selfish instead of spotting up someone in a better position - something we've been so good at lately. I can't count the number of times we burned guys who were alone inside 50, and you could see them express their frustration. McDonald could have had another 2-3.

I also reckon we lost confidence and weren't keen to go for the slightly dangerous kick that would open up the field, instead kicking it around the boundary.  The antithesis of last round's Melksham kick from defensive side of the wing into the forward half of the centre square vs the Bulldogs, which was some vision that got highlighted a bit during the week.

I think it was both. We shot ourselves in the foot in four major ways today. 

1) we didn't bring it to the midfield contest

2) we didn't bring the tackling pressure (across most of the field)

3) we failed to spread hard for each other to provide the switch and therefore open up easier kicks

4) we failed to look to move the ball quickly (mostly because of "3")

[SFebes 4,692]

Disappointing day after the efforts of last season. Goodwin was out coached today and players weren’t really on from the start. Collingwood are a good team with elite mids and well done to them.

why Brayshaw wasn’t put in the guts after his current form beggars belief, he’s a natural mid and gets the clearances where we were flogged.

i think Gawn and Grundy drew in the end.

Smith had a crack and did the best he could i reckon, some great spoils and smothers and good marks towards the end. Think he’s more a flanker though. They’ll stick with him. I’d blood Petty at CHB, drop Vince and have Hibberd and Smith on flanks.

Petracca another ordinary game, plods around, stuck in second gear and I’d drop to Casey for a decent stint to see how much he wants to play AFL.

When chips were down we lacked leaders again, Jones just doesn’t stand up, lots of cheap posies like Lewis and Vince should retire. Jones was putrid today.

Spargo kept us in the game in the second and tackles well, I’d stick with him and give him a run in the middle. Don’t understand the hate for him.

Oscar going down didn’t help and Jetta and Hibberd can only do so much.

Hogan was well beaten by Dunn, who we should never have offloaded, but he’s only had one bad game.

A blip on the radar, now a rest and rethink, I do hope the slagging of opposition supporters and “what they’re saying threads” around here stop, we’d beaten up bottom or struggling sides and we must remember where we came from. A good win by Pies, they’ll go deep if injuries play the game.

have a great couple of weeks people.

[waynewussell 4,088]

Went today, home now... got up the courage to watch the first quarter on replay. Just sayin', Joel Smith can be proud of his efforts in the first (can't believe the criticism) and Big Max owned Grundy in the first... If you find this observation runs against your own firmly held view, I invite you to watch the first quarter with a critical eye!

[Demon Dynasty 15,404]

29 minutes ago, Jaded said:

Where do we find pace though?

Our midfield is good but very one dimensional. Good fast hands. Can get a clearance. Can gut run. Slow as the day is long. 

Every time we play teams who pressure us and have good outside pace (Richmond, Hawks), we get pantsed. 

If your starting four in the middle includes Clarry, Chunk and Viney (at the same time) you are doomed against teams who are clever and quick with getting it to the outside like the Toiges, Hawks and now that we know....the Pies also.  Hec even the Doggies beat us in this area last week but weren't as good at finishing as the Pies.

Quality opps (with outside class) just corral those three and pressure them as they know they are not much of a threat (outside), wait for the turnover, flip it out, then they're free with an extra number (or two) on the outside and off spreading to the races.

That starting 3 (above) is just too one paced and inside biased for my liking.

I would be rotating Chunk and in the short term Viney off the bench.  This allows Chunk some much needed additional rest time and Viney also while rebuilding his tank.  He could be up to 4 to 6 weeks away from his best at this point due to the lack of workload pre-season IMHO.

Question is who are the other starting 2 who can offer the outside run / carry / spread?  Brayshaw is probably already getting the gig quite often as the 4th starting mid.  But who is the other to replace one of the very inside biased mids of Viney / Chunk?

Harmes, Tracc, Salem?  Maybe Fritsch?  Maybe none of them are up to holding this role down effectively right now and we are toast against rated teams here?

[DeeSpencer 23,124]

6 minutes ago, JV7 said:

You've got to be kidding ? He's field kicking is elite. He is one of the best field kicks in the team... I honestly can't remember him missing a target. I wish I could find stats on it but I'm sorry he is an elite field kick

When you burn a quick play by holding behind the mark only to chip it 20m sideways you'll often look good. For a tall forward he can't execute the same inside 50 kicks as some of the good ones like J Riewoldt even Tommy Hawkins, yet alone the great ones like Tex and Bud.

[Dr. Gonzo 22,412]

The Pies are a much better team than I've given them credit for. They have developed a good list of big bodied "flanker" types who in other eras would've been close to key position. De Goey is a beast, I thought he was a small pocket player but he's Neitz like in size.

[david_neitz_is_my_dad 3,925]

4 minutes ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

De Goey is a beast, I thought he was a small pocket player but he's Neitz like in size.

Are you kidding me? Neitz not only is taller he weighed 20kgs more. Neitz was a gun key position (FF) and De Goey isnt fit to wipe his boots yet

[Pates 9,536]

It’s a cliche but matches are won and lost in the centre and we were simply smashed in all areas in that regard. We didn’t have one midfielder that “won”, anytime we won the ball at ground level they were all over us preventing any kind of fluid movement. Then when they won the ground level ball they had much more speed and spread with us not doing enough to put pressure on. 

The defence was completely under siege and there really wasn’t anything they could do. Lever wouldn’t have made a huge difference IMO. 

I don’t understand the hate against Lewis, I thought he was one of a few players trying to create something from defence and did his best against the swarm of inside 50s. 

Tim Smith was ok but he was filling big shoes under difficult conditions. 

OMac got destroyed but again not much he could do. 

If we’re looking for a big statement dropping Petracca should be first on the list. I’m sure I’m not alone in thinking he is one of the key ingredients to us taking the next step but he has been very average this year and today he was barely sighted. 

Apart from Adelaide we haven’t beaten anyone of note (though maybe should’ve got the win v Cats), we are the downhill skiers of the competition right now so the bye must be seen as an opportunity for some soul searching because of we make finals we’ll currently just be making up the numbers. 

And complete credit to Collingwood, they were clean, they were hungry, and right now they want to win more than we do. 

[Binmans PA 26,033]

32 minutes ago, SFebey said:

Disappointing day after the efforts of last season. Goodwin was out coached today and players weren’t really on from the start. Collingwood are a good team with elite mids and well done to them.

why Brayshaw wasn’t put in the guts after his current form beggars belief, he’s a natural mid and gets the clearances where we were flogged.

i think Gawn and Grundy drew in the end.

Smith had a crack and did the best he could i reckon, some great spoils and smothers and good marks towards the end. Think he’s more a flanker though. They’ll stick with him. I’d blood Petty at CHB, drop Vince and have Hibberd and Smith on flanks.

Petracca another ordinary game, plods around, stuck in second gear and I’d drop to Casey for a decent stint to see how much he wants to play AFL.

When chips were down we lacked leaders again, Jones just doesn’t stand up, lots of cheap posies like Lewis and Vince should retire. Jones was putrid today.

Spargo kept us in the game in the second and tackles well, I’d stick with him and give him a run in the middle. Don’t understand the hate for him.

Oscar going down didn’t help and Jetta and Hibberd can only do so much.

Hogan was well beaten by Dunn, who we should never have offloaded, but he’s only had one bad game.

A blip on the radar, now a rest and rethink, I do hope the slagging of opposition supporters and “what they’re saying threads” around here stop, we’d beaten up bottom or struggling sides and we must remember where we came from. A good win by Pies, they’ll go deep if injuries play the game.

have a great couple of weeks people.

Having thought about it, I like this idea. Good post, mate.

Ideally, Petty doesn't have to play yet, but he might be the best option back there and allow more foot speed off half back. 

I hope they try it and let Harry debut in SA.

[Dirts 429]

3 hours ago, Wadda We Sing said:

The loss we had to have?

Was [censored] today but also think it has been a crazy 6 weeks. The break and a refresh will only help. I suspect a slight adjustment in game play and a realisation that their future is in their hands. Jetta is a bloody star. He is also very involved behind the scenes with his work with the indigenous. 

He is now my number one see!

[Demon Dynasty 15,404]

19 minutes ago, JV7 said:

You've got to be kidding ? He's field kicking is elite. He is one of the best field kicks in the team... I honestly can't remember him missing a target. I wish I could find stats on it but I'm sorry he is an elite field kick

AFL StatsPro says his kicking efficiency this season is average at 63.9% (not elite) but he has apparently improved in this area slightly vs his career average of 62.3%

The only thing here is you do need to allow for his size IMO.  Would be a better stat if you could compare him to the AFL's other KPFs and see where he lies there.  Gut feel says he might be elite vs other KPFs.  But then you have to ask if he isn't elite in this area (in general) up the field, then why do we play him up there so often?

I guess the FD is looking for a big body to bust through packs and take a number of  contested marks or intercept marks to assist down back a little (steady the troops under fire...control the tempo better) and build a wall with the press.  Something that obviously didn't happen much today if so.

http://www.afl.com.au/stats/stats-pro#/discover/CD_I296324/Hogan-Jesse

Edited June 11, 2018 by Rusty Nails

[DeeZee 6,731]

Collingwood have a better midfield than ours and much quicker, but I can’t believe we couldn’t find a match up for Mason Cox of all people.

If Tom Lynch goes to the pies they will be a serious contender..

[picket fence 15,127]

3 hours ago, Skuit said:

We were always going to lose the battle on the outside. 

But Collingwood smothered us all game and shut us down on the inside. 

Well played Collingwood. 

I believe we will learn from the loss. 

Like we did last round last year?? Superficial, we are flat track bullies with a lot of problem areas! STILL! which haven't been remedied and will cost us against better sides! Oh and Collingwood are a very good well drilled footy team! Watchout!

[Straight Sets Simon 23,113]

21 minutes ago, Rogue said:

Lots of talk so far about how we were getting smashed in the clearances, but I reckon our decision-making and execution going forward was putrid.

Twice Jones had the ball on the half forward line and handballed to a stationary teammate instead of kicking it himself into the forward line, meaning we went from a guaranteed forward fifty entry to a turnover.

At least on one occasion Collingwood kicked a goal from this.

[Dr. Gonzo 22,412]

2 hours ago, DeeZee said:

Backline fell apart without Lever today.

 

Inside 50s were 63 v 42

Clearances were 45 v 26

Centre clearances 18 v 10

Bounces 17 v 2

They smashed us in the middle and at the contest around the ground then were able to run it in space.

It was not the backlines fault we lost today.

[CHF 2,601]

Disappointing game.

We were half a pace behind most of the day and looked flat. 

It is a concern that for te second week in a row we were killed in clearances, the difference this week was that this team had the firepower to take advantage of their position. they out pressured us around the ball and therefore the midfield could not give cover to an under performing defence.

Good thing there is a break as it will give us a chance to re-charge and re-set for the second half of the season.

[DeeSpencer 23,124]

10 minutes ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

The Pies are a much better team than I've given them credit for. They have developed a good list of big bodied "flanker" types who in other eras would've been close to key position. De Goey is a beast, I thought he was a small pocket player but he's Neitz like in size.

Not sure they are all that tall but they are very solid and they can all compete with good size/speed/strength profiles.

Besides from getting smashed on the inside they just seemed like more ready made primed AFL footballers. Guys who could run and contest and really crack in. I think we need to start picking some higher quality athletes to return serve against the best teams.

He made some skill errors but Joel Smith was able to do things with his athleticism. In the first quarter he looked ready to play when and able to physically get involved.

A backline featuring Maynard, Langdon, Crisp and Greenwood as flankers is some serious beef. However with appropriate pressure they should start coughing up the ball. Sadly we couldn't chase or tackle any of these guys to force mistakes outside a patch in the 2nd quarter.

Stephenson and Hoskin-Elliott had a field day. I'm not surprised. I thought Jetta and Hibberd/Vince could largely restrict them if given the right midfield support and that's where Salem and Lewis could beat Josh Thomas and Daicos. 

ANB and Spargo (and the rest of the forwards) couldn't get the pressure. Melksham, Hannan and Petracca couldn't get the goals.

Everyone looks better in wins than loses but we need more consistently applied grunt.

[Thehardtackler 785]

Dare I say it, we missed Tyson. He generally plays well against Collingwood. He uses the ball well and gets a lot of possessions. I also think Garlett might have helped us kick a winning score. 

[Dr. Gonzo 22,412]

18 minutes ago, david_neitz_is_my_dad said:

Are you kidding me? Neitz not only is taller he weighed 20kgs more. Neitz was a gun key position (FF) and De Goey isnt fit to wipe his boots yet

I know Neita may be your dad but you may wanna check your facts. De Goey is 191cm (at least) so Neitz only has 2cm on him and maybe 10kg not 20kg

This is beside the fact I wasn't comparing their ability just their size  and pointing out that De Goey is a massive kid for a flanker/mid type. Similar to Cripps I guess.

Edited June 11, 2018 by Dr. Gonzo

[DeeZee 6,731]

4 minutes ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

Inside 50s were 63 v 42

Clearances were 45 v 26

Centre clearances 18 v 10

Bounces 17 v 2

They smashed us in the middle and at the contest around the ground then were able to run it in space.

It was not the backlines fault we lost today.

I agree not the reason we lost, but he would’ve stemmed the bleeding and given us more of a chance.

Mason Cox FFS???

[Deeoldfart 7,720]

We were comprehensively beaten around the stoppages for the second week in a row, and our workrate around the ground was way, way below par today. It's a very disappointing result, but I'm prepared to regard it as an aberration, coming off the back of six very good weeks.  The second half of the season will determine whether I'm close to the money, or just kidding myself.

[jumbo returns 6,488]

Might be time for a couple of difficult conversations with some players

It may prove hard to win a flag with Bernie, Lewis and Jonesy in the same lineup

Edited June 11, 2018 by jumbo returns

[DeeZee 6,731]

Just now, jumbo returns said:

Might be time for a couple of difficult conversations with some players

It may prove hard to win a flag with Bernie, Lewis and the Jonesy in the same lineup

Bernie’s finished you could see it all year.

Youd rather a Hunt or Tyson any day 

[david_neitz_is_my_dad 3,925]

8 minutes ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

I know Neita may be your dad but you may wanna check your facts. De Goey is 191cm (at least) so Neitz only has 2cm on him and maybe 10kg not 20kg

This is beside the fact I wasn't comparing their ability just their size  and pointing out that De Goey is a massive kid for a flanker/mid type. Similar to Cripps I guess.

Height 1.87 m, Weight 82 kg

Height 1.93 m, Weight 100 kg

[SFebes 4,692]

13 minutes ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

Inside 50s were 63 v 42

Clearances were 45 v 26

Centre clearances 18 v 10

Bounces 17 v 2

They smashed us in the middle and at the contest around the ground then were able to run it in space.

It was not the backlines fault we lost today.

Only 42 i50s jeez, how did we score 90+

i actually don’t mind Pies winning as they played well, but it infuriates me to see M Cox dominate, it’s actually embarrassing