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First thing Goodwin needs to do as senior coach is say to the AFL if you are going to fixture us home games at Etihad you need to let us train on it the week we have a home game there.

After a loss like yesterday, this thread always helps me look at things in perspective. Melbourne ranked 16th in each filed on the weekend with an average age of 23 years 10 months and games experience of 65.8. Saints were 8th & 9th at 24 years, 11 months and 92.5 games experience. These results will happen. It's annoying, but the inexperience of the teams we're putting out there leaves this open. Dunn & Garland's fall from grace, Lumumba's injury and Dawes inability to get back to some of his 2013/early 2014 form has meant we're playing a lot younger then most of us expected.

It's threads like this that make me consider if a mandatory cool-down period is required on the forum after losses, even if on a poster-by-poster basis.

Happy to flop them on the table with this bloke. Will be elite.

They just use an AFL form of "rope-a-dope" to beat us. Every time. Ball lands between 3 players from each side. The 3 Dees all try to pounce on the ball. One Saint goes for the ball, the other 2 go to the outside. If a Dee gets first hands, he is too close to his flatfooted teammates to be able to get clear of the contest, and the two Saints on the outside just close in if a Dee does look like breaking clear. If the Saint gets first hands, he immediately flicks it clear of the contest to where one of his teammates cruising past can accelerate into the open with the other teammate running in support alongside him. They're 30 metres away by the time the 3 Dees pick themselves up. Same happens with 3 or more Dees getting sucked into the tackle. They expected that we would keep trying the slingshot through the corridor and we were determined not to let them down the whole game. We don't seem to be able to move the ball forward any other way. They just simply closed down the space through the corridor. And when we turned it over, this also meant that they had much more space out wide to run into. And when they got it wide, we were always in real danger further up the field. Yet there was never any apparent urgency to run back hard and get out wide to cover their chain of spare men. We were content to just jog alongside them & keep them out wide, and before we realised it, they had put together 3 uncontested possessions and an uncontested mark inside 50. Exactly the same as Round 6. Exactly the same as last year. Rope-a-dope. Yet we never see it coming, like every other side does. And don't give me this "Saints are just a better side than us" crapola. These are the names of some of their "stars" who made us look stupid today: Membrey, Ross, Weller, Dunstan, Billings, Newnes, Roberton, Geary, Acres, Minchington, Gresham, Jack Sinclair, Daniel Mackenzie, Nathan Wright. That's two thirds of a side of absolute plodders. We made them look like top-four material, because they were so much better as a combination. We played like 22 individuals after 1/4 time, because of "rope-a-dope". There was no one on the field or in the box who saw the need to do anything different. Oh, and we don't seem to have anybody who can hit an accurate bullet handpass over more than about 5 metres. Over 10 metres and we have to "loop" the handball. But that's another story.

I generally like the hardness that AVB brings but he has dropped off alarmingly this year. An interupted season doesn't explain the lack of possessions and impact since he came back in rd 11. On the weekend he had 4 kicks and 8 hb's with 1 tackle! What has happened? He has to be dropped. We are effectively a mid down the way he has been playing. Description Date Opponent Result K HB D M G B T HO GA I50 FF FA AF SC Round 17 17th Jul St Kilda Loss 74-110 4 8 12 0 1 0 1 1 1 2 0 1 36 61 Round 16 9th Jul Fremantle Win 87-55 8 14 22 3 1 2 5 0 1 6 0 4 77 85 Round 15 3rd Jul Adelaide Loss 98-120 4 13 17 2 0 0 8 0 0 1 1 2 71 56 Round 13 19th Jun Sydney Loss 31-86 6 7 13 1 0 0 3 0 0 3 0 1 44 54 Round 12 13th Jun Collingwood Win 104-58 5 13 18 6 0 0 5 0 1 4 0 2 73 54 Round 11 4th Jun Hawthorn Loss 64-82 5 5 10 2 1 1 3 0 0 1 0 1 47 45

One of the few positives from yesterday's game. See it here https://markoftheyear.afl.com.au/vote/round/17 Courage personified! Just threw himself into the pack! If you would like to vote for him http://www.melbournefc.com.au/news/2016-07-18/viney-nominated-for-mark-of-the-year Well done, champ.

Ohhh, your gonna be pounded for that post!

He was a key reason we were on top at quarter time. He dropped off as the game went on and he got caught unaware a few times but was a lot better than credited by some.

23 possessions and a team leading 7 clearances. Welcome back Angus.

Point is they should have been our Dempster, Fisher, Gilbert, Riewoldt etc like the Saints have to guide our young players through the season and make finals a possibility. They haven't done that, for various reasons. As such we find ourselves where we are.

Jeepers 1 loss and people are talking about the club not surviving? Come on. If we turn up each week, pay our memberships and if the club just get a few more smart list and coaching moves right we could have a really good team on our hands. Then if we market that team properly and capitalise on it the club can grow rapidly. We've got: - The best young key forward in the league in Hogan - Possibly the hardest young midfielder in the league in Viney - A pair of young midfielder/forwards who love playing with each other in Petracca and Gus - A number of exciting to watch forwards who can form a really good group in Watts, Kent, Garlett, Weids, Ben Ken - A classy utility who's got the talent to do anything once we get his body right in Salem - we haven't had a player as skilled as Salem since the Daniher years - A young bull of a clearance midfielder with some wonderful hands in Oliver - A fantastic ruckman We are actively trying to do something with the womens football to grow the club. We have made significant changes to the coaching and culture of the club. I get as negative as anyone on the deficiencies of the playing list and the deficiencies/difficulties facing the administration but even I'm above this level of doom and gloom.

Our best has gotten a lot better. Our worst is still terrible. We play in worst mode as often as we play in best mode. We absolutely lack outside polish and run, yet we keep drafting inside mids (e.g.- Oliver). We absolutely need to find some jets who can use the footy, and give us more of that outside run. That is why Hunt has been so good for us this year. Having said all that, yesterday I watched Reiwoldt take a mark on the wing against McDonald. 35 seconds later he took an uncontested mark in the square and kicked a goal. He ran, at age 34 (?) harder, faster and with more intent that his opponent who is 10 years his junior. When we are on we don't look slow. When our midfield is on top in the clearances our forwardline is exceptionally potent. When we are allowed the quick switch, we look as good as any team out there. It's when the pressure is on, that we turn to jelly, and given we lack experience, polish and solid leadership, we don't know how to cope under physical or mental pressure. P.S.- I hope everyone sooking it up about the NT deal are a full 17 game member who attend every home game, otherwise, you have no right to complain.

While im not happy with the win tally and a few of the losses in particular, suggest a deep breath and some time is needed from all. We are fielding the youngest team in the afl every week, and more often than not taking it up to some good teams. This sport is too tough, the season too long and the spotlight too intense for kids to consistently perform at a level expected of a 100 to 200 game player. You might say otherwise - look at the bulldogs for example - but there are always exceptions. They drafted superbly and have built a great mix. They click with the coach and also have had quite a favourable draw that allowed them early wins and confidence to build, regardless of how hard it gets for them in the back half of the draw. As long as we keep fielding the most inexperienced team in the league, wins are going to be difficult to get. At some point the list needs to stabilise and a core is carried through until they are all 25 with 140 games, which is a real challenge in the age of free agency and will ultimately define how successful we can be (of course, these players need the talent but i believe we have it) There were times during the year when all of us on here were very excited and finals were discussed, but a bad performance sees people clutching for the life jacket. Perspective!

All the other players on our list are just the same are when they walked in the door? It's obvious that all our players have improved. Jetta was delisted three years ago. Harmes played Casey 2s in his first season. I do see the words "consistently" and "recently" in there. The improvement in Watts and Gawn were not consistent: they simmered along very slowly for a lot of years, then exhibited massive step changes this year and last year respectively. I don't think too many players get that much better throughout a season, as energy is drained. The biggest improvements occur between seasons, so it was this year, so it will be next year. To claim our players aren't improving in any way other than usual is just garbage. You guys have just got to stop with this "everything is stuffed" attitude after losses.

Zero wins for the rest of the year. We're hopeless. Carlton have gone past us and West Coast will beat us by 150. We haven't improved one iota. Sorry guys, just testing out what it felt like to do a post like this. Feels a bit yucky actually.

So many people making lame excuses, blaming darwin, selection, roos coaching, umpires, etc. etc. etc.. Reality is the 22 on the field did not do their job after quarter time. The played dumb football. It was a disgrace, we were damn lucky not to have lost by 10 goals or more. poor skills, too many players not prepared to chase to tackle properly, to put their head down and play. Viney is one of the few who can hold his head up for giving 100% all day long. You cannot go into any match carrying so many poor performers and expect to win. As for stats, I really think we need another category of stats, something like the player actual does something good with it. We had a lot of players who go cheap stats handpassing and kicking to players vastly out numbered, or directly to the opposition, or fiddly hand passes back and forth a couple of times before they turned it over. The Melbourne football club's skills coach needs to be replaced, that is if we actually have one.

Rawlings is to blame? Didn't see that one coming.

$700k for a player who struggles to kick straight is hilarious!

you would know........

This is true. The fact is, we have a younger team now than when Roos started. More than a quarter of the team that played yesterday has played less than 20 games. Yesterday was disappointing for me because I thought we had taken the next step and could go on and have a crack at the finals, but clearly we are still a young and inconsistent team. That doesn't diminish my belief that we'll be a formidable team in the next couple of years. In 2 or 3 years we'll have 4 Jack Vineys running around - Track, Oliver, Brayshaw and the original. I reckon we'll be a fair side when that happens.

Coaches votes: 10 Tom Hickey (StK) 8 Tim Membrey (StK) 6 Jack Viney (Melb) 2 Sean Dempster (StK) 2 Jack Newnes (StK) 1 Jarryn Geary (StK) 1 Leigh Montagna (StK) Both gave 5 BOG to Hickey. Our ruck coach needs to work out some counter moves for Max as that is the 3rd time in a row that Hickey has got the better of him. We will not beat the Saints until Max prevails. Another excellent game by Jack Viney. Looks like 3 votes from each coach. Add to that his nomination for MOTY and he had a damn good game.

All this angst over a defence that has conceded, I think, one point more on average each week than last year? Here's the games played totals for the back 6 defence for each team, as they were selected: St Kilda: HB 16 Jack Newnes 19 Sam Gilbert 11 Leigh Montagna -85/173/265=523 FB 14 Jarryn Geary 24 Sean Dempster 17 Dylan Roberton -136/216/96=448 Total Games Experience-971 Melbourne: HB 29 Jayden Hunt 28 Oscar McDonald 45 Matt Jones -13/11/58=82 FB 42 Josh Wagner 25 Tom McDonald 39 Neville Jetta -12/98/88=198 Total Games Experience-280 Until these number of games played gets up a lot higher, there are going to be plenty of times our defence falls apart simply due to lack of experience.

I find it interesting that Rawlings is the only surviving coach from previous administrations. He must have done something right. Our defence was rock solid the last couple of years, and got us through some tough times. Then we lost Frawley, Dunn and Garland are struggling, and we have changed the way we play this year from defence first, to an attacking mindset. Put all this together, throw in key injuries to Salem, Lumumba plus Melksham being ruled out of play, add some really inexperienced players in Hunt (who has been excellent mind you), Wagner, OMac and Frost, and you get a defence that is struggling. This is a new defence, and frankly it worries me. Not enough brute strength, not enough solid one on one defenders, only one experienced tall, the best user of the ball has a thyroid issue, and the rest have played 10 games together. It's little wonder we're chasing Hurley and Hibberd, when Jetta is our most in-form defender. Frawley's loss has been massive, and we have failed to cover that loss.

He was solid in his first game, and hes only 20 years old. Hes played just two games in 2016 so not really a fair sample size. He deserves another shot in the seniors. He will be a player.

Players bought in in Roos' first 2 years and where they are: 2013: - Cross - Is now the runner after a good couple of years. Still teaching the kids. - Riley - delisted - Mitchie - Playing VFL. Who knows if he will make it. - Vince - Playing AFL at a high standard. - Tyson - Playing AFL to a good standard after a poor 2nd year with us (injury didn't help) - Salem - Sick but is a very good user of the ball and should make a good wing/HFF int eh years to come - JKH - Struggling with injury. Who knows if he makes it, I think depth at best - Hunt - Now playing some very good footy and showing signs of a promising future. - Harmes - Has the potential, is getting regular AFL games, needs to work on his consistency. - Max King - Knee in pieces. Who knows. - Alexis Georgiou - Played one year, played OK, was never going to make it long term, was delisted. - Jetta (put back to Rookie list), best thing to ever happen to Nev, has been a different player since, and a very good one at that. 2014: - Newton - Playing VFL - Depth at best - Garlett - Playing AFL and is very good when he is on. Seems to have fallen into a very inconsistent patch of late. - Lumumba - Could provide leadership and run off half back but is struggling with injuries. How many years he has left is the big question - Frost - Has shown glimpses of being a more than serviceable back man. His height and speed were sorely missed on the weekend. - Petracca - Missed year one with a knee and has shown glimpses this year of what is hopefully to come. Hasn't burst onto the scene as many thought he would but the talent is there. - Brayshaw - Had a great first year but was run into the ground. Has struggles with injury this year and from the sound of Roos on the weekend he has struggled with listening to what is required and implementing it, but he has seemed to have worked it out now. Should have a good career as a very good player. - ANB - Playing VFL but must be banging down the door for an AFL call up. Who knows if he makes it or not. - Stretch - Has shown he has what it takes at AFL level. I don't think he will be a star but he should be a good role player in future. - O Mac - Has been getting a game in the AFL and has done reasonably well considering where he is at on the development timeline. The fact he is playing ahead of seasoned veterans either says a lot about Oscar or more about those veterans. He has the talent to make it, he just needs time. - AVB - Had a good first year but has struggled this year due to injury and form. Hopefully just second year blues. - M White - Has played 3 games, won 2 of them and played well and then had an off day. People on here have called that he isn't good enough and should be delisted. He has played 3 games people, and done well in 2 of them! I have put in bold the players who will make it and are either playing in best 22 or aren't due to injury. That is 14 of our best 22 who have come in in Roos' first 2 years, you asked where those players were, there is your answer, they are right in front of you. Even better is there are only 9 players bought in over this time who aren't best 22 at the minute and 1 has retired and 2 have already been judged and have been delisted, leaving 6 either on the long term injured list or trying their guts out int eh VFL, and showing some good form there too.

Roos has done a fantastic job with this football club. He's changed a club who would start Daniel Nicholson and Jordie Mckenzie in the centre square with the likes of Brayshaw and Vince. Unfortunately, I can't help but feel that there's something clearly lacking on game day. As previously alluded to, Roos lacks a plan B or a 'break glass in case of emergency' button in his coaches box that he can use to turn the tide of the game. At times, I feel like the players are trying to do something to stem the flow themselves but are unsure on how to do it as they have not been properly directed.

I don't think he is. Even PJ was targeting finals this year. We have improved but it is marginal and incremental. I have never bought into the "it takes 5 years to change a game plan" garbage. Our defence is a trainwreck. Our mids go missing regularly. Our players make dumb mistakes time and time again. Worst of all is our leadership disappears and we have little other than Viney, Jones and Vince to stand up and stop teams kicking 7 or 8 in a row against us.

We've been saying this for years. How long do we keep saying it?

We have little chance of upsetting one of the other four games. That is the stuff for those that continue to dream and delude themselves. Those sides have plenty of incentive to win at the business end of the season. Our best and very slim chance is if Port drop out of contention when we get around to play them. Carlton have the same contempt for us as the Saints have and another likely humiliating loss. I only see a win against the Suns which puts us in line for 8 wins as I said a couple of months ago. While our playing list has improved on paper, not much else has. I just dont see the mental fibre in the players to take us out 3 and 3.

Change for next week : leave telly off

We all agree that the club is in better hands, and is incrementally improving on and off field. Yesterday at that ground west of the city this club was again embarrassed and again beaten by a team that physically and mentally bullies us into submission. For me personally this was our worst defeat and performance barring the debacle against Essendon. Our shortcomings are crystal year, we still get bullied by the same teams over the past ten years, even with a different list we still have a soft underbelly and get beaten up. As a team we repeat the same mistakes every week, overuse the ball, handball skills are shocking and we almost regularly handball to a player who gets caught. This brings me to the third point. The team other than Hunt, moves like treacle. We get touched up on leg speed and cannot match speed of other teams. This list is better but our shortcomings are still serious and won't take us into September unless they are fixed. My family have vowed never to watch the MFC at Etihad again, it is just not acceptable anymore for supporters to turn up but the team does not turn up. Our leg speed, foot skills and decision making are still very poor for AFL level. The club still lets itself down against sides it should beat.

Yes he is a difficult one to work out. He burst onto the scene last year with pretty much no pre-season coming off shoulder surgery. He averaged 18 possessions, 3 marks and a super impressive 5.5 tackles a game over the first 9 games with his best being a 29 disposal 11 tackle effort gaining himself 3 Brownlow votes along the way. He was missed after he got injured. His best last season was very good This year he has failed to develop and has gone backwards. No doubt other teams are more aware of his capabilities and there may be some of the second year blues even for a 24 year old. Without being in the inner sanctum it is also hard to know how much this years injury has hampered him. Probably a fair bit I'm guessing as he has had a few over a short time I assume Aaron will get back to his best (which is very good), but till then he may find himself in and out of the team

Roos comment "We don't have a Dangerfield" says a couple of things to me. Firstly Prestia just shortened and it was a veiled comment on our skippers effort. Normally I'm a bit of a fan of Jonesy but he didn't show up yesterday. Not what you would expect of a leader.

No suspension for Jesse Can accept a $1,000 fine!

IN: Bugg, Frost, Oliver, Stretch OUT: Grimes, M. Jones, Kennedy, White

I am not sure why people are complaining about Brayshaw. I thought for a kid coming back from injury, playing what, his 20th match, he was very good. To say he has no awareness is [censored]! As for Vanders, he has been near useless this season. Not sure what his deal is but he isn't contributing enough to justify his position in the side. ABN should be getting a game this week in his place.

If one of those easy misses becomes a goal, the ball goes back to the middle, so instead of Harmes or Vince doing a dud kick in that comes straight back in, we have Viney and Gawn contesting again. You're then on a totally different path of reality. We have no idea what would have happened, we might have been thrashed as you suggest, or we might have lost by less or even won if St Kilda hadn't peppered the goals. It's an invalid argument, because a goal puts the game on a completely different course to the outcome, compared to a behind.

I think we have improved from a deplorable team to an ok team. Still wouldnt rate us as a good team yet as we keep having those bad losses to teams like Essendon and St Kilda. Long way to go in my opinion.

Hasn't been right since coming back (IMO) too quickly from the ankle injury. Season is over for us, send him off for surgery so he can do a full preseason.

I get that, and Roos has done a good job of "steadying" as I said. But honestly, I don't think we've improved enough this year.

First quarter excluded, compare the Saints' dynamic ball movement to players always on the move to our programmed stop-start movement. The Saints' ability to go from a contest to an attacking move puts us to shame.

Vanders has been a disappointment this season. Has gone backwards since last year. Looks slow and disinterested

8 wins would be a disaster. 1. Club had aimed to make finals. 2. Roos' last season. 3. Haven't won more than 8 games in a season since 2006. 4. Continue to lose at Etihad and against Saints, North, Hawks, Eagles in Perth, etc etc My "pass" is 10. Nine wins would earn a "participation" award but not much else. We should already be on 9 wins but we're stuck in neutral beating crap teams and getting pounded by teams around us on the ladder. Yesterday's loss and the Essendon loss just make me so angry.

I think a very damning stat in this game & from memory, most of the year.. would be our lack of tackles in our forward 50. 3 tackles from 40 entries is unacceptable. Saints with 14 from 50 entries says a lot about our forwards. Those who say hogan is not there to do that are kidding themselves. Any weak link & it doesn't work. Hawks are the perfect example of forward pressure. They just desperately keep it in there. It's just extracted so easily out & then were killed on the rebound. Honestly.. it's not that hard is it !!?

We are shite.

Our depth is fine. Yeah it can improve but it is fine. It is our quality and middle tier that was the issue today. Our top 10 are inconsistent. Watts and Viney have been relatively consistent this year. But Jones, Vince, Hogan, Tyson, McDonald, Gawn, Garlett and Jetta have been up and down. After those 10 who are the next 5? We have a real pack of players after that who may not make it long term. That's the issue, not the bottom 5 or the players at Casey.

He's a vegetarian, it can't help.

Venting is very therapeutic

The seniors are shot, so time to play the kids. ANB needs to be selected and given a few games to see how he fares (ala Harmes 2015). Clearly in our best again in the vfl, and needs a chance to show what he is capable of.