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I'm sure the experts will be "thrilled" with that information.

Nah, doesn't help me at all.

$10M for 10 years plus dibs on his first two male offspring ( I reckon even his daughters will be guns so we should get them packaged into the deal as well)

It's embarrassing but the toigs mate, should have seen the place after we beat them hahaha

One aspect of this case which I hope somebody in the media cottons on to is the massive slap in the face WADA have just delivered the AFL regarding their integrity. By ASADA declining to appeal through the AFL's own system and then WADA taking it right out of their hands, they have basically said that they have no faith in an impartial judgement being delivered by an AFL body. In essence, WADA and ASADA have just told the world they think the tribunal is crooked and delivers results based on the wishes of the AFL and not the evidence.

I can't believe James Hird accused ASADA of destroying evidence of the use of thymomodulin. This bloke seriously thinks he's the centre of the universe and everyone else is out to get him

back in the mist of time i went to waverley park for a rod stewart performance the warmup group all came out in orange boiler suits and made a loud but unitelligible noise i remarked to the missus how bad they were and what a lack of future they had they were cold chisel

Bump. lol

Greg Baum gets it ~ WADA appeal into Essendon verdict: Too big even for City Hall I think one of the commentators in the aftermath of the AFL Tribunal decision claimed it was an advantage that two of its members had played football at a high level. I couldn't disagree more. That close connection more likely clouded their senses of what it took to deal with the elements of the case and to conclude to a standard of comfortable satisfaction. Perhaps it was inevitable but we really never came close to the truth and perhaps we never will given the shady nature of the witnesses who were either coerced into not giving direct evidence to the tribunal or simply refused of their own volition. The tribunal seemed to draw little or no inferences from the fact that they did not make themselves available or that the data about the programme they presided over was removed from the face of the earth leaving me at least in little doubt that the players were injected with the substance Dank imported and that it was exactly what the Chinese company he imported it from actually manufactures. Baum nails it with this -

Hope Hogan flattens him next time we play the Swans.

An interesting update on the appeal: -David Grace, QC...is required to recuse himself from the formal proceedings under Court of Arbitration for Sport rules. -WADA has eight more days to submit its brief to the players’ lawyers, who will then have 20 days to respond. -It emerged on Wednesday that any player wanting to end the saga and do a deal with ASADA had missed their opportunity. -The saga is now tipped to drag on into 2016, overshadowing a fourth AFL season. -Several other Australian CAS arbitrators have had involvement in the Essendon saga, likely ruling them out them from sitting in judgment on the matter. Malcolm Holmes, QC, Neil Young, QC, Hayden Opie,Brian Collis, QC. -...CAS official Katy Hogg told the Herald Sun CAS can subpoena witnesses but warned of more local court action. “If they refuse to collaborate, the CAS, like any arbitral tribunal in the world, would be obliged to seek the assistance of the competent state courts to have them testify,” Hogg said. http://www.heraldsun.com.au/sport/afl/david-grace-qc-unable-to-represent-essendon-players-against-world-anti-doping-agency/story-fni5f6kv-1227353891389 Better order heaps of that popcorn BB, it is going to be a long wait.

Not close to either, just a past athlete, not footy, who went through the WADA training many moons ago so have a keen interest. I was never tested but got to the edges of WADA's radar in my youth.

I'm old enough to remember watching Tom Jones early in his career. Even then I didn't think he was good enough to get a gig on Grand Final Day. How wrong was I.

The players had a responsibility to know what was being injected into their bodies - part of being a professional sportsperson requires that responsibility. That responsibility can't be just put aside - these injections weren't forced upon them - they had a choice. I've never bought into their victim mentality. Just imagine it was one player only and not 34 players? So, if it was one player only and that one player allowed his club to inject various substances into his body on hundreds of occasions (to the stomach region) would anyone have any sympathy for him? I doubt it. The same circumstances would be involved too - he'd have to have walked across the road to a dodgy anti-aging clinic to receive these hundreds of injections. And why are we so sure that the players didn't know what was being injected into their bodies anyway ? It's quite possible that it's all a collective lie - there's a lot at stake.

Most of the criticism of Essendon on here is criticism of the club, not the players. I'm quite sure the players are frightened and doing exactly what they are told. It is Hird, Danks, Reid, Little et al who should be slaughtered. Yes, the players are guilty, and have ignored clear responsibility that lay with them; and yes, they have surely lied. But it is the sustained and systematic doping, together with the too-clever-by-half waivers and off-site cloak-and-dagger arrangements - and then, when caught out, the attempts to evade scrutiny/regulation (including the efforts of collaborator Demetriou, not forgetting the lawyers and press) - that is the real outrage here; and that was not the initiative of the players no matter how much they have stupidly and illegally gone along with it. So I would like to think that WADA will deal with the root cause and source of this monstrous, calculated and systematic, anti-sport programme. Essendon Football Club, united in support of its rogue operators, collectively sacrificing their weak-minded players to the club's "whatever it takes" reckless and defiant ambition - that's got to be the real target at CAS. So, my question: Is WADA going to appropriately deal with the club and its officials - or just punish the 34 players? How likely is it that a 2 (4?) year ban will be imposed on the club, in the event of the Appeal being upheld? Can life bans come out of this - as several of us on here would consider right and necessary - or has the scale of Essendon's misconduct exceeded the scale of any punishments available to CAS?

Hi everyone. I do really feel for Essendon right now. They were my 2nd favourite team in 2012 so I still have a soft spot for them Here are my favourite players from that list. Thomas Bellchambers Alex Browne Jake Carlisle Travis Colyer Stewart Crameri Alwyn Davey Luke Davis Cory Dell’Olio Ricky Dyson Dustin Fletcher Scott Gumbleton Kyle Hardingham Dyson Heppell Michael Hibberd David Hille Heath Hocking Cale Hooker Ben Howlett Michael Hurley Leroy Jetta Brendan Lee Sam Lonergan Nathan Lovett-Murray Mark McVeigh Jake Melksham Angus Monfries David Myers Tayte Pears Brent Prismall Patrick Ryder Henry Slattery Brent Stanton Ariel Steinberg Jobe Watson

Thought I'd add this. For those wanting Viney and Jetta back this week, both were at the pre game function on Sat night and did a Q&A with some of the supporters. Essentially, Viney said, "he's 40/60 to play this week". But pretty much ruled himself out through body language. I'd be really surprised to see him listed. For those wondering about Jetta, he thinks he's ready to go, but they saw the specialist when he had the concussion two weeks ago and basically said he's had 6 concussions in the last year and a bit. Specialist said its minimum 4 weeks on the side line. So while he thinks he's good to go, the club is taking no chances on the long term health of any of their players.

there's your answer

I used to work with Phil Small the bass player in Adelaide. He asked me if I wanted to be their road manager. I just laughed and said I couldn't see any future in it.

10 for $10 mill.

Ouch. Sauce with tha humble pie.....? I tell you what I am over. I am over 'experts' writing off our young players. get behind them and support them. Yes we can be critical but in a measured and sensible way. They are learning the game and will make mistakes.

It's Stafford's job. They could draft someone who was 4ft and want him to ruck, so it's Stafford's job to try and teach him the craft no matter what. He is on the list so he will be given the time. It's still going to be a miracle for him to make it. And Gawn's knees have given way - they gave way before he was even drafted. There will always be that risk with him. I'd love to see it not happen again but reality suggests that it's a distinct possibility. Plus not many complained when Spencer got selected - he had been in fine form for Casey and deserved a call up, and most would have agreed at the time. Many of us were disappointed with his output on Saturday night and rightly so. He'll need to improve upon that to keep his place in the future.

Hi, Sendoff, Thanks for the list of your favorite 34 past and present Essendon players.

Agree. No doubt Hird and his cohorts tried to push the envelope (Coll/Carlton etc 'they are all doing it') and brought in a guy of dubious repute. They sold the story to the players (Bomba is here and look what Robbo and Danky dd for Geelong). Hird also has previous form with Charters (that hasn't really been pushed by any media - How did he recover from some of his horrific injuries and perform so well etc etc) They actively sought to bypass the club doctor AND nutritionist - ie: anyone that raised doubts The records are conveniently gone The players may have drunk the Kool Aid but it is their responsiblity. If WADA can't prove that waht teh platyers took they can whack the club for poor governance etc. The interest will be whether the AFL penalties already served by the EFC will be deemed enough. My feeling is WADA will be looking for scalps but at the very least to whack: - the Aust Govt for having lax laws relating to compelling witnesses to give evidence and a weak drug enforcement culture - the AFL for having a lax regime and pizzpoor supervision of clubs - the EFC coaches and administration that should never be allowed near a club again The players may well get off but there is going to be a lot of collateral damage to the integrity of Australian sport. We will all suffer from the reputational damage these feral EFC people have inflicted on our sporting community. It makes me sick that the media and acolytes are supporting the EFC saying 'its unfair' 'enough is enough' 'they are good blokes' etc Every Olympian in this country would be sick to their stomachs about what these cheats have gotten away with.

Yes, B, it's the gift that keeps on giving, isn't it? Even if we can't get much fun out of our own crappy team, we can have a bit of schadenfreude at the Bombers expense. Had a cold, bit worse for the wear this morning. Heard the news: the perfect cure! Felt great. As my wife said, by the time this is all over, the only one of the 34 still playing will be Dustin Fletcher.

I can tell you Evans, the AFL, ASADA, and their PR and a legal advisors just about had a settlement across the line in 2013 to the satisfaction of everyone except James Hird. He, along with Doc Reid, would have had to have admit guilt and resign. Instead, he stabbed his "best friend" Evans in the back, brought in Little and went on an orgy of litigation purely to save his own neck, and buggar the welfare of the players, Evans (who subsequently had a nervous breakdown) and Essendon. For him now to say continually "it is all about the players and always has been" is staggeringly hypocritical. I think Whateley knows that and at last was calling him out on it.

Does this delusional psychopath really expect anyone to believe that he would hand over the only copies of documents that could be used to clear his name? Really? How naïve does he think we are? He has numerous lawyers, and one at home. And "oh, I gave the only copy to ASADA who then destroyed it so they can get at me"! Paranoid delusions. And, anyway, just because a spreadsheet may have Thymomodulin, or Thymosin, or Vitamin C isn't evidence. Would anyone be stupid enough to put "Growth Hormone" on a spreadsheet if one was using it?

ASADA comments on Hird's latest line: http://www.abc.net.au/news/2015-05-13/asada-refuses-to-be-drawn-on-hird-claims/6468000 When contacted for a response on Wednesday, an ASADA spokesman issued a one-line statement: "ASADA CEO Ben McDevitt stands by his previous comments regarding the deplorable lack of records in this matter".

I don't believe he actually is, but I do believe it's the lie he told the club to get out of having the injections. I see it as a way of opting out of the programme without having to put his hand up and saying "no, I don't want to be a part of this" and risk ostracism, or appear to not be doing as his told by his bosses.

The blame - sometimes - lies with his flat-footed team-mates for not providing options. There have been several occasions this year where he's had the ball for an eternity waiting in vain for someone to lead or get free and call for it.

WORLD RECORD CASE http://www.theage.com.au/afl/afl-news/essendon-34-to-set-world-precedent-former-asada-boss-richard-ings-20150513-gh0s9p.html edit: From the Age article The matter is unprecedented because it will be the first time that WADA has appeared before CAS prosecuting an allegation of anti-doping violations against several players without the benefit of a positive drug test, Ings said. He said it was likely WADA believed there had been violations at Essendon and viewed the AFL tribunal's decision as setting a precedent which would be followed elsewhere.

Putting on my devious mind, If I was running a illegal supplements program I would keep records to assess and improve the program, but they would either be... 1. Kept in a way that could be very easily, quickly and permanently destroyed (ie on paper, only one copy and always in my own possession). Then we can play they "Oh dear, the records seem to have gone missing" card. OR 2. Kept on computers for all to see, but I would remove all references to the illegal substances, and replace them with legal, easily explainable substances and I would record dosages as appropriate dosages for the legal substances (ie dosages have to make sense and can't imply or be linked in any way to the actual illegal substance being used). In EFC case, I'd replace TB4 with say Mangesium and record a dosage of 400mg (normal for adult males) instead of 4mg (appropriate for TB4). Make the program look squeaky clean. I definitely wouldn't have a spreadsheet with the actual program details on it.

A few things with your comment, the tribunal only ruled out thymomodulin being what was imported in this case, they never actually made a ruling about what the players took. They also said that in the one conversation that Dank did not mean thymomodulin but TB4. They also weren't satisfied about the link between Dank and the club. They left themselves just short of having to make rulings on the players. To me it is like a set of dominos. The first to fall is the 'was it TB4 that was imported question?' Surely having tests show it could be, the manufacturer saying it was, and the people who ordered it saying it was is enough to provide comfortable satisfaction. The tribunal didn't agree so the case fell over right here. If that domino falls then the next is did Dank take it to the club. To answer this you need to ask what was the thymosin on the form and in the vials. In the absence of any evidence to the contrary you would have to say it is the only thymosin shown to be in Danks possession, being TB4 (unless he can show otherwise). By not agreeing it was TB4 the tribunal never assessed or made a ruling on this part of the case. Whether or not there is enough to join the dots required is up to CAS, for mine the tribunal didn't even try to and balked at the first hurdle.

Offer him a 7yr contract

They already got us a Ceo and coach

The burden of proof at CAS will be the same as at the AFL tribunal. Where it may differ is in how they apply it. Many people, including WADA, believe that the AFL applied the comfortable satisfaction burden far to far too high a standard, bordering on beyond reasonable doubt. That is why they couldn't be satisfied it was TB4 when they had people saying that was what was ordered, that was what was made, but there was a possibility that it was something else. A bit like saying it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, but it might be a pigeon. The burden of proof 'comfortable satisfaction' is actually a bit of a fluid beast. The judges will need to decide where it sits based on the Briginshaw test. This basically says that the greater the consequence of a guilty finding, the higher the burden should be. CAS are far more familiar with dealing with this in the sports setting that the AFL tribunal. In short, while the burden of proof is the same, it may (or may not) be applied differently when being heard by CAS. WADA is relying on them lowering it from the stratospheric heights the AFL tribunal took it to.

The best part about the WADA appeal is it is now totally out of the AFL's hands McLachlan, Fitzpatrick and the EFC will feel so powerless, because they are. I love it.

Generally YES...but for a while he went off with the fairies and seemed to go along with some fanyboy ideals. Hes obviously 'woken' up again..Interesting...He wont be alone in finding a realignment back to the 'truth' SO many though run with the Hare and hunt with the hounds !!

The Lockett and Dunstall comparisons are clearly tongue in cheek. Anyway, each to their own. I don't feel the need to keep a lid on it in this case, the guy has all the attributes to be a genuine star of the comp and I think he will be.

I think at times in this saga Whateley, who I think is one of the better sports commentators in the country, particularly when he is on the ABC, has been seduced by the dollars he earns at Foxtel. To keep that going he has to get on with Robbo. However, once WADA appeared, to me his body language was a classic. It was as if he was able to return to his true self, and state without fear or favour, what he knew to be true: ie Hird has been lying and cheating and at last he can call that out for what it is on high rating Foxtel. The fact that his first words about this were: "the adults have at last taken charge" I think says it all. In closing, he said "I have a real feeling about this that it changes everything" or words to that effect. So decisive were his comments that even Robbo was semi reasonable. Maybe the explanation is simple. As professional journalists they cannot afford to continue to defend the indefensible. If so, wait for the edifice, constructed by the Hird PR Machine and millions of dollars, to quickly collapse, as their tame journalists quickly try and get on the right side of history. Oh, what a wonderful sight it will be...

Watched the game last night between NT Thunder and GWS ressies. Barry played in the midfield and kicked a couple, but didn't get much of the ball, and just didn't seem to get involved. If you went to the game as a recruiter, you'd take Richard Tambling ahead of him. If I was a GWS supporter, I'd be salivating over the prospects they have developing. Marchbank looks like a star, and Ahern would be getting game time for us. One player who was really good for them in their early years but seems out of favour is Adam Kennedy. I think he'd add to our depleted midfield stocks and wouldn't cost much.

Someone on BF said it's because Whateley likes to back a winning horse and I think there's truth in that. As well as the factors you've mentioned.

There's being duped and then there is allowing oneself to be duped Ignorance is bliss? Yeah, go ahead and inject me hundreds of times to the stomach region with unknown substances at some dodgy anti- aging clinic - I'm fine with that Later on - we were duped. I'm not buying it.

Come on guys... If King was hopeless, Stafford would be dying to confide in Saty. It's clear he can be trusted; everyone at the club knows he doesn't put everything he's told on 'land, only 90% of it. And Twitter is for the gun shows.

So it was ASADA who destroyed all the written spreadsheets was it James.... That makes so much sense Liar.

I suppose there is always the notion there are two basic elements to this monstrosity of an occurrence. Firstly that anyone or group would set out upon such an ad-hoc misadventure into chemical enhancement of a team without knowing what it really was they were using or any or all of its down side, let alone imperial benefits. That this was obviously beyond pushing an envelope or why so clandestine and nefarious. Those seeking to undertake such a wrong doing need to be hauled before the powers that be and punished. Its the second component which strangely ( for mine ) divide many. The idea that that the players were but pawns. The players are without doubt complicit but i can see how in some manner they are also the victims of naivety, stupidity and blind unfettered 'club worship' at best but foolish and self destructing, uncaring deferal of responsibilities at worst. I truly have no sympathy for any of them. The club are ratbags for having started it and now still persisting with their re-invention of what took place. Its beyond reprehensible, beyond scandalous to me it smacks of the criminal. The club should be dealt with in that manner and Im of the opinion Worksafe will do just that. The players simply cant evade the notion they did wrong. They bought into the scheme . For some it may well have been through peer pressure and such but where are all the mentors, the guardians, the parents. I dont blame many of them per se ( parents ) , though Watson's actions as a father for mine border on the despicable having effectively sold out his sons welfare for the betterment of the club. Given everything thats transpired I would have expected a break away group of parents. Those who place more reliance in their own gut intuition and devotion to their kids than playing along with any maniacal scheme over-seen by those with only self interest at heart These parents have much to answer for in my opinion. Theyve made some quasi faustian deal if only at the level of co-conspirators by not blowing any whistle, though I do wonder in this day and age whether some weighed up the simple financial inducement to remain schtum ! WADA has limitations of the penalties it can impose on the club but it should throw every single one it can as a message to all "You dont do this " this and of itself would also I should think help other authorities like WorkSafe find their direction and goal in dealing with those that set about such a heinous program. As to the players theres no running away. They took it all on board and its ultimately irrelevant as to the how and why only that they did and if you do it, you should get done.

Funniest thing is had ASADA won the case, Essendon would have appealed, now they're acting like wada are out of line for doing the same thing

What I thought was a point that was well made last night was when Whateley said "by the standards the AFL tribunal set, Armstrong would not have been suspended and WADA don't appeal losing cases" Now I remember him being in the not enough evidence camp last year. Big turn around.

Call me crazy but I still have faith in Toumpas. So far, he isn't what we should have got with a pick 4. However, against Sydney I saw some promising signs. Adding to that, his body looks far more mature this season and the knocks on his toughness were wrong, IMO. One thing you'll always get with him is good disposal efficiency, but he needs to find more of the ball. No longer hoping for a star, but I still think he can become a solid contributor to the 22.

That's what the players have told him anyway.