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Essendon Football Club. Knows Drugs have no long term effects - doesn't know what drugs were administered Swears they have no case to answer - doesn't answer show cause notices Administers up to 34 players banned substances - plays the victim

There's the "you have to be open minded to any offers in case the deal of a lifetime falls on your lap" view that bub and co put forward, and then there's the "be a little bit realistic about what he's worth in a trade vs what he's worth to our team" view that rpfc and stmj have cast. Of course I'd trade Tom for Gaz Jr, but in reality I'd be staggered if we were offered a deal that landed us a player more valuable to us than our best 'gorilla' defender. I consider myself in the "I'm open minded for offers but as sceptical as could possibly be that we'd get anything that would make us a significantly better side so I wouldn't waste any time on it" camp.

My reading of the Act which established ASADA is that ASADA is permitted to act in concert with the various bodies that regulate each individual sport. Essendon maintains however, that the wording of the legislation is restrictive and further, by ASADA and the AFL acting in a manner contrary to the way in which the legislation allows, ASADA has exceeded the powers given to it. Bearing in mind, I haven't seen the evidence put forward to support that proposition, I still can't see that there's enough of that from what I've read about the case and further, I think the legislation must be given a broad interpretation anyway to allow its intended effect to be achieved. I think therefore, there is little (no pun intended) chance that a pragmatic judge like Middleton J will accept that the entire investigation (including several months of evidence gathering by ASADA acting on its own) should be wiped out altogether. It has to be remembered that the investigation insofar as it involved the AFL, related to issues of governance which EFC and Hird did not challenge and in fact, by consent, they accepted its outcome. While that of itself cannot knock out their case for ultra vires, I reckon it's going to have some weight, particularly if the judges BS meter is fully functioning when he brings down his decision.

People complaining about Tom McDonald are just lining themselves up for participation in the 2016 'humble pie' thread. Anyway, an overall disposal efficiency of 73% for Tom isn't horrendous, but there is definitely a clanger problem throughout our defence. Mcdonald 2.4 Garland 2.4 Dunn 2.3 On the other hand, for the 1%ers count - McDonald 9.7 Garland 4.9 Dunn 4.6 I think we can persevere with the young fella a bit longer.

Ha! Watching picket fence have a full on meltdown in front of everybody is pretty funny. It's like he considers being angry to be an argument. Carry on. *grabs more popcorn*

From past experience I know this post will likely be in vain, but I will make it anyway in the hope that something lands. You seem to read other's posts discussing individual players as denigrating, but with yourself it is "their best is not good enough at the moment". I haven't seen much denigration occurring, and I haven't seen anyone suggest we should delist 30 players. These are things that you concoct to suit your "incredibly dumb" accusations. If we are discussing the list and the inevitable changes that will occur, then individuals are going to be discussed in that context. The problem is that whenever that topic comes up, indeed whenever anything of a negative flavour comes up, your reaction is to try and shut it down win insults and an insistence that we all just shut up and defer to "fearless leader". First it was Neeld. Now Roos. For the umpteenth time... This is a DISCUSSION FORUM. DISCUSSION. FORUM. Not a fanboy site. Not a cult. Not a forum for ex-AFL players only. No, Roos won't read it. Yes, there is some venting involved. But despite what you seem to think, the thoughts expressed on here don't stem from feelings of inadequacy, or shortcomings in our lives, or god knows what other theory you want to come up with. It is just people who love the club and are desperate to see it improve.

On a positive note and I am not sure if has been mentioned in the thread previously but what a sensational goal by Dean Kent. I recon there is fair bit to work with in this bloke and he could become that x-factor that we need.

S-home complaining about abrasive and wilfully ignorant posters has become a self-fulfilling prophecy.

Watching the Freo game yesterday one of the few players that gave me hope for the future was this bloke. Yes, I know he only got the ball 11 times and his disposal wasn't brilliant at 55% but he has something about him. He's quick, loves to run, loves to kick a goal, possesses a raking left foot and has toughness to go with the skills. I know I'm going early on a bloke who has only payed 21 games but I think he has the skills and temperament that would thrive under finals pressure. Either way I know I become less of a morose bastard when the footy is in Dean's hands

The kid is maturing quite nicely. Those legs are massive!

I am sure the bloke has had a strategy from day one and worked behind the scenes even when Evans was in the chair to that end. You dont become a billionaire by being stupid. I recon he is playing a high risk strategy because he has to. To roll over would see Hird gone and the club possibly subject to a WADA ban and further AFL sanctions. The club would also be liable for civil action by the players for lost earnings and damages. My problem is that he knows they did wrong but they are prepared to sell out the game to avoid the fallout from there actions. Hardball business but immoral IMO

He's hands off at this moment in time BB. We've got a big bodied guerrilla defender who may be leaving our club at seasons end and our list is hardly full of great one-on-one defenders so I think it's fair to say he's on the untouchables list for this season.. It may be a different case if our list was teaming with top end KPP backmen but T Mac has shown his worth as a standout close checking defender. As others have pointed out, if we had some elite rebound half back flankers with elite skills coming out of our backline, Tom would be made to look a lot better than he is as he'd be assigned to play to his strengths and not worry about being the rebound player himself. We all know about his decision making/kicking deficiencies.

Satyriconhome - the poster that makes everything personal. Seriously, it's a discussion forum. Just because a few posters views do not align with your own, does not make them dumb.

Agreed. The stats really do show this. Last year we couldn't even get our hands on the ball, so we've improved in that regard, but every week we see the same thing - lots of possessions, very few inside 50s, even fewer shots on goal. Our decision-making is terrible and means that possession chains which should be turning into inside 50s and/or goals are instead breaking down, and our skills are so bad that those possession chains are not just failing to give us scores, they're giving our opponents scores. It starts, IMO, with the players in the back half of the ground. We either need to get McDonald, Frawley, Grimes, Garland and Terlich to improve their kicking, or we need to replace them with players who can kick. Unless and until we have players able to execute the kicks needed to create those possession chains that lead to goals, we will not improve enough.

Essendon continues to duck for cover Caro. Bang bang bang bang. Those logic bullets are epic.

Speaking as a simple-minded onlooker, I've never understood the basis of the Bombers' challenge. They're alleging some kind of collusion/conspiracy between ASADA and the AFL. How on earth could ASADA carry out any sort of investigation if they didn't work with the sport's governing body? But then again, I couldn't even see what grounds they had for objecting to Dr Harcourts comments either; all he said was the same as every body who doesn't barrack for the Bombers was saying anyway. Not much worse, in fact, than their own Ziggy had already said. Black day for our game if they come away unscathed.

Allison just says it as it is....no sugar coatings.. Nor should there be

You still haven't answerd his question?Why would you only want to his a third rounder and thats it? Is it the fact that you havent seen him play at all you just base on the fake spies in your head that also tell you he is skinny and outside player like Toumpas and his career will turn out the exact same..?? Picket Fence demonland version of Damian Barratt. "Questions selection choice, never seen him play"

Not very often that I'm grateful for mega-threads, but wow, we sure have been tracking this kid for a long time.

Oh but remember he tells the players at training that theres a website called demonland and all we do is critize the players.

The problem with the above list is that only Terlich played on the weekend. Bail and Jordie as well if we include your maybe pile (these two are in the definitely pile for mine). Some tough calls will need to be made. 15-20 might be a ballpark figure, but regardless we are looking at another 2-3 years for Roos and co to shape the list. I'd like to say there will be a greater focus on drafting players who can kick, but that approach has landed us in hot water as well (Strauss, Toumpas (for the moment)..). An ability to win their own ball remains crucial. That has been the Port mantra and it has served them well. If we can land two top end midfielders in the draft, this will be an important addition to the core group.

You seem to miss the gist sometimes Saty it matter not what Byrnes may have been , currently hes not a player that will take us further and its this notation as applies to many a poster's view on the list that its not just good enough to be good enough, we have to be better than we are.

Hang on a sec Saty do you seriously think as supporters you expect us all to just lie down and give the players a pat on the back?We as supporters are allowed to vent out our frustrating at every loss because we are frustrated and impatient of lack of success. So for you to come on here and take a swipe at every person that vents in frustration is absolutely pathetic. Maybe its you that needs to change your code of sport because if you haven't relized every club has supporters that will vent frustration and critize players. Its part of football for gods sake. I dont think you have any idea where we are too be honest. I seem to recall all last you were telling us all Mark Neeld was the right man for the job and we had no idea about football..

Even more laughable is the notion that you can build a list by trading players as young and talented as McDonald.

So you're another one making up stories Jazz? The truth is there were only 3 and it was all a bit of a misunderstanding - no harm done.

I think we could improve vastly to become, say a 9th, 10th or 11th side by next year, simply by recruiting one or two players who are sound decision makers off half back. If blokes like McDonald have somebody to handpass it to, he could easily become an A grader. Currently, the majority of our goals conceded, occur directly from our defenders poor decision making or kicking. If we can eradicate most of this, we'll start to win a lot more games and our strangling of the opposition will become far more effective. They will then have to make the play and that opens up the possibility of us being able to force turn overs and create our own scoring chances. At the moment, even when we blanket sides, a lot of the time we eventually turn it over in dangerous areas. This cost us both Bulldogs games for example. Delist or trade out two or three of our poor makers currently in the starting 22 and replace them with better decision makers. I'll back our recruiters and Roos to identify those vital pieces of the puzzle. 2014 is unfortunately another stepping stone season. Next year though, we should be pushing for the eight or at least the fringe. It's very doable, particularly as we have a promising recruiting team now and the genius of Paul Roos.

I agree findee. Kent is one of maybe a dozen on our current list who I see as central to our future, and (dare I say it), finals prospects. He has a bit of 'x factor', and I can see him turning big games for us in a couple of years. I know I'm a dreamer but ......... Edit: typo

I'd trade both first round picks assuming Frawley leaves and we gain band 1 compo. I'd send one to GWS for one of Shiel/Treloar and the other to Gold Coast for Dixon. I'd make two very significant contract offers. We've got the salary cap space. Let's use it. I'm like most here and have watched bits and pieces of the U18s on Fox but that's it. No one has really jumped out and made me say, "I want that kid". Having said that, once afl.com gets their highlight packages up I'll be a complete expert and will no doubt have a fresh view on what we should do with our 2014 picks. Oh and once the bigfooty experts complete their phantom drafts, I'll have changed my mind again.

I'm not over Tommy. I love him. I'm just hanging out for the contract extension.

Hot toddy anyone?

Keep it up, jazza. Didn't know you had bald knees, but I guess whatever floats your boat ...

I agree with wyl I reckon there are close to 20 out of our list of 40 that are not good enough and will not take us from the bottom four. Unfortunately it is not possible to change 20 players and find better ones in one season. It is probably going to take 2 - 3 years to achieve a list that can threaten the top eight. There is a reason we cannot win games we don't have enough good players plain and simple IMO.

You are spot on 'Grimes', it's happening a lot more. It's always interesting to see who Roos sends Cross too when available. See McAffer went to Hill last week as well.

one does not ever enjoy winter Jazz. It is endured.

In the Bombers own report, their Investigator Ziggy Switkowski, a loyal Bomber fan, found that their actions were a disgraceful pharmacalogical program, using unknown drugs on the players who were the guinea pigs in the whole disgusting episode. The Bombers accepted the Report and its findings and accepted that their governance in this instance was missing. They then did a deal with the AFL to get a low penalty which is clearly their right. They accepted the penalty. To this day they insist that the players were not given banned or harmful drugs, but are unable to say what they in fact were given and therefore what side effects may come from those drugs. However, Robbo says they are not guilty of any wrong doing and if he says that, then they must be innocent. I don't know how I got it so wrong.

it is very much hardball business as you put it. But WADA wont be bullied. Little has done well in his line of business because he could control a lot of the outcomes..it was his turf. Footy , or rather WADA and the world of doping etc really isnt his ( PL) forte. its theirs !! I would find it very hard to believe that WADA havent gone this far without understanding the machinations of these things as well as a good appreciation of Chess !! Once Essendon negated the option of true co-operation and taking their medicine ( npi ) then they embarked on a fight to the death. Its about to get very interesting

To be fair saty, most on here are yearly members who have invested money in the club and we have been terrible for 8 years in a row, It's not surprising patience is thin, especially when we are costing ourselves with silly skill errors

"Satyriconhome Sums Up". Don't be so superior! - just one more poster, with just one more opinion... no taller than anyone else... (and yes, we do appreciate your training notes)

haha.. "Shuey", "Dangerfield" and "Swan".. love a comparison, whats next Leigh Matthews? I like Dean Kent and agree with what has been said, just laughing at comparisons.. all in good humour.

Daniel Cross has a been a huge loss. His leadership on field is being sorely missed, as his his tenacity around contested footy and his tackles against key opposition. We have not been able to replace that, and it appears some of the younger guys feed of his leadership in the middle. Reality is this was NOT ever a winnable game on the fixture, and although we were embarrassed I am surprised so many supporters are surprised given the quality of Freo's list Vs our own. Moving on, we need to look at who we can get into the side to stop some of the skill errors and turnovers.

Roosy has set a great foundation for the future, we have a game style, we are starting to develop a culture where you have to dominate the VFL consistently to get a look in, young draftees aren't expected to dominate games, they develop in the seconds, hard work and team first is what we are about, I think we have made huge gains off field we haven't lost by 100 points all year, that in itself says a fair bit, I think our two biggest enemies are * Our errors in skills and decision making, especially out of the back line * Our lack of class and polish, we have some good players, but i'd still argue at least half our list is VFL standard, while that's the case we will be a bottom 4 side. Next year there will be a big change over to our list again, a lot of blokes moved on, a lot on thin ice and some good fresh players bought in. It's important to remember that this was always going to be a multi season prospect, it wasn't going to happen overnight, we are coming from in my opinion very close to the worst team of all time.

I'm curious what posters mean when you say 'so and so needs a rest'. Does that mean go back to Casey, or not play at all next week? I am sympathetic to the way it 'sounds' right for a particular player but when you think it through,what does it really mean? If it means go back to Casey, how can that be a rest? We expect players to earn their way back into the senior team. If they play at Casey, they have to outperform their teammates for a few weeks in a row to deserve the next callup. If they have a true 'rest' and dont play at all for a week, how do they prove they are worthy of the next senior selection? Outperform for the next few weeks at Casey? And does that mean they are then close to needing another rest just as they are promoted? I really don't have an answer - what do you mean by a 'rest'?

My open letter to Essendon president Paul Little Hes got it a bit wrong in that ASADA has to prove to a comfortable satisfaction that an athlete took a banned substance but apart from that pretty much says what everyone is thinking

After 22hrs of hand wringing I've decided to look on the positive. My top five positive things to come out of last nights game 1. Howe's smother (not Howes mother as i originally typed it...mind you I haven't actually met his mother) 2. Kent's Goal on the run 3. Sylvia is a spud and even in a good team he is ordinary and I'm glad he went 4. Jack Viney's ability to gut run and make opportunities 5. Nathan Jones' ability to shake a tag and still be trying at the very end and one extra Roos for his ability to know exactly where this team is at, and hopefully know what we need to fix it

Absolutely. Billy should be doing everything he can to get drafted as high as possible. He should be seeking to improve himself every time he is on field. If a team bids a late first round, so be it. That means he's worthy of a early 2nd round. No one wastes their first rounder to spite other clubs.

I think most supporters, like the players, have mid season fatigue and are getting grumpy. The initial excitement has worn off and the stark reality becomes obvious. The list is shite and many on I it don't and never will have what it takes. We still need to press for a priority pick and address whatever the issues are at Casey because development still seems a massive issue.

I'm not attempting to defend his 'efforts' - though as AoB rightly says above, it's not effort that the issue, it's skill. I recognise that he makes too many mistakes. I see that that miss last night hurt the team. What I don't agree with is the way he gets singled out. I raised the Tyson point not to single out Tyson, but to make the point that there are many others who make terrible mistakes, none of whom get raised on here. What about Bernie? He's made several really bad kicks out of defence in recent weeks that have directly resulted in opposition goals. Again - nothing gets said. Only the Grimes errors are discussed. As for being a terrible captain - he's been 'voted' in by his peers for three consecutive years and endorsed by two different coaches, at least one of whom clearly knows a bit or two about leadership. The club must think he does something right.

TMac at a good club may not yet have debuted. He is developing before our eyes rather than the VFL. I'm with Rono. A definite buy.

I'll buy the TMac shares. Has a tank. Can keep the most dangerous multi-dimensional-mobile-tall quiet. Without Frawley, with Dunn has held up a defence that has had heaps of I50s against it.

Spangher is also 27 and at his third club. He's played 41 games of footy in 8 years of being on a list, unbroken. The football world has shown him a patience almost unprecedented, and he finally seems to have arrived. Tom McDonald is 21, and has already played 52 games, often holding his own in one of the most under siege defences of all time. Yet plenty here are ready to burn him at the stake.