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Oh great. You're ripping out all the big guns now. Some of the anzacs sat in the trenches and cried like children. Some of them ran headfirst into their certain death. Some of them killed as many enemies as they could. Some of them never fired their weapon. You don't get to decide what the anzacs thought, because each of them was an individual that had their own motivations and aspirations, and you trotting them out here is nearly as shameful as politicians purporting to represent their wishes in support of one (usually racist) policy or another. Now that you've brought them up, however, it might be worth mentioning that thousands of the poor buggers succumbed to mental illness thanks to their experiences in the war and lived the rest of their lives as hollow, empty shells, not a shadow of their former selves. I wonder indeed, what they would think of you belittling others - like Mitch - battling mental demons.

OD wasn't always so old. Back row left.

I think 45 has nailed it. McKenzie in to nullify Murphy. Dropping Byrnes we lose nothing. Dawes fixes up our forward structure, and gives Fitzy a much needed rest. Being in the 2s should restore his confidence somewhat, too. I'd move Frawley back to defence with Pedersen and leave Dunn up forward. Spencer & Warnock to largely be a stalemate. Tyson winning the ball at stoppages to be our star performer.

I know we wish for our team to bond and look after each other but this is a bit to far

I started following the demons when I went to my grandmother's house on a Saturday in late September 1958 and watched a game of a very foreign code unfold. I found myself barracking for the team that was losing, sadly an inclination that has shadowed my life: my daughter said to me 6 years ago, Why do you always back losers? I grew up in Bulldog territory, had Teddy Whitten himself bring round a Budgie I'd won in some crappy competition, a budgie I soon released to its fate because of all the maintenance requirements. So, as it turned out, I chanced on a winner. The demons were in every final till 1964. I was at cricket practice as Neil Crompton replied to the infamous Gabelich wobbly run and goal. Then came the drought we all know about. But, there were glimmers, Hardemann, Alves, Wells, Dillon, Parke - though I wished he could kick! - Sullivan, Baker, Fowler, Smith, the might Flower. Then came Northey, a night premiership, five years of finals, then Schwartz, Charles, Tingay, Lyon, Neitz, the Daniher years of one up, one down, and the chaos that followed. I started following Demonland during Mark Neeld's reign. I met him at a bottle shop where I work part time. He was/is a lovely guy who was passionate about what was happening and about to happen with his team. It didn't work out. Along came Roos. The saviour, I welcomed it because my brother always barracked for the Roys and I ended up watching as many Fitzroy games as Melbourne games in the late 70's and 80's. I read all the training reports, and do report that before I opened my computer the day on the day Jess Hogan's injury was reported I had a premonition about our boy Jess. So there's the NAB cup, then I await the announcement of the first team before the St Kilda game and I despair: there's no forward line, it's totally ad hoc because of INJURIES. Round two: ditto, no tall forwards, the Ruck position totally compromised by the fact that Spencer is the ONLY man standing. Round three: Ditto forward line, ditto the Ruck, and who is Spencer's opponent: the one and only Lewis Mumford, world famous ruck man and philosopher. In the meantime, I'm reading the pathetic doom and gloom posts on this site and finally I can't take it any more. I want to say to you doom and gloom mongers that the Demons will only START to be competitive when and if they can field a side that contains the likes of Garland, Hogan, Gawn, Jamar, a fully fit Dawes and quite probably Riley and Michie. Till that happens, why not watch the evolution of something that is potentially very good and allow time to heal what was obviously a very deep-seated cultural problem at the Melbourne Footy Club.

I picked a hell of a day to stop sniffing glue.

We haven't lost Frawley yet. Let's not be defeatist. I support Liverpool in the EPL and they could have simply let their best player go over the English summer, but instead they dug their heals in and said no. We don't have the same leverage, given there was a contract still in place, but it says everything about the football club - how easily you roll over. That player is Luis Suarez and he's probably the best player in the world right now. I want the MFC to fight for Frawley. Show we're not a pack of spineless twats.

And he could teach some of our boys about leadership, perseverance, courage and standing up when needed. One of my all time favorite players and i reckon underrated in terms of how good he actually was. Often played on players much bigger than him, was super strong in the air, rarely got beaten one on one and was ahead of his time in terms of taking calculated risks by going third man up, running of his man up field and zoning off to to help other defenders out. Edit : to be clear and for fear that psychodemon will misappropriate my words when talking about perseverance, courage and standing up when needed i was not in any way making an oblique criticism of Mitch. In fact if i was meaning to make an oblique reference to Mitch it would be to suggest he has shown all those traits by retiring. What a truly a courageous move. I'll bet London to a brick his family is super relieved and proud

Ridiculously I feel as though Dawes getting through a full game is almost worth 4 points. We really need him to stay fit and get into some good form. Need goals, Dawesy.

I can Hear Chris Dawes Calf tightening as we speak!

Confucius say: Problem with line in sand is that on other side ... there's just more sand!

I'd offer Jake Spencer a two year contract extension if he uses the first bounce as an opportunity to run through Warnock and uses the first possible occasion to put Bryce Gibbs into the third row of the crowd. That might wake a few others up. Next step after that is to target Mitch Robinson and wipe the smirk of his ugly head. It's about time we stop being insipid and if that means going way too far the other way first then so be it.

What about David Neitz and Matt Whelan ? They had more courage and mongrel than our current entire list combined, bar Nathan Jones. I would love to see it as well billy, i doubt it though. Can you imagine Jack Watts drawing a line in the sand, hed probably trip over it.

Ridley tried that at an AGM but it caused a few problems.

Good footy teams do both. The "sniping" doesn't mean king hitting - it means intimidation, aggression and an if you mess with me you mess with all of us attitude.

The Northey brigade never took a backward step, went on to win this one and as we all know, played off on the last day in September after beating the Blues in the Prelim the week after...

Funny thing is the commission was brought in for the betterment of the game, the problem in the past being that the clubs were all about there own self interest. The commission was meant to be above this and could make clear and correct decisions no matter what the club interest was. Pretty weak commission this one, a lot of self interest being served by the commissioners not for the betterment of the game. There are too many commissioners with strong club affiliations and also some who are conflicted by doing business with the AFL for this commission to work as it should. Don't expect to see too much press (media) about this, another area of self interest.

I know one Dr.

Jordie has always tackled his ass off no matter who the coach is

The worst team in 30 years doesn't find itself in winning positions in two of the first three games. It's not much to hang our collective hats on but it's something.

Wet game, that means a slippery ball, lots of fumbles, bad kicking , misplaced handballs, turnovers, sounds like us every week. So because we are used to it we should have an advantage! Our players are so used to trying to cover up shite disposal that we will look in our element and blitz Carlton. That is my dream and I'm sticking with it, at least until late Saturday arvo.

Any kind of MFC win constitutes 'upset of the round'.

What about a team full of Rodney Grinters?

I agree that you need a good culture/standards etc - but our list is in such a diabolical state at the moment that we really do need additional early picks to be competitive in the short term. If that means using the picks as currency to trade out for top line players or guys wth time in the system like Tyson then so be it, but we need some currency; it won't come from our current list and we can't really afford another couple of years being uncompetitive while we turn the list over.

A lot of it is about driving standards to get better. There's a lot of work to do, in the 1s and the 2s.

Is that 50,000 full adult members or 20,000 adult, 10,000 junior, 10,000 pets, 5,000 3game memberships and 5,000 Martian memberships? Just sayin.....

I will worship forever the Melbourne player who puts that bonehead Robinson on his rrrrrse

This is known as the Melbourne example: "I have pity for you. Your training was elite but you still came last."

old dee said when he saw university they were pretty ordinary also.

The game is over 4 quarters, and that goal had a lot to do with the defender failing to keep his feet. Martin needs to learn how to run out games

Quite possibly the funniest line I have ever read on Land......

You know it's a sad state of affairs when rolling another 0-3 team would be upset of the round.

You like Nicholson's disposal? You really are a sucker for punishment! Wet weather footy, hard physical stuff, it really is a day for Watts to hang out on a wing and watch the minutes go past. I hope we see something different from him.

...and to back you up a bit about Kevin, it was a bit embarrassing when he didn't know one of his skippers and was about to sign an autograph for him thinking he was a fan.

Where do we get them from then? No one is going to give them to us for the hell of it. I appreciate what you're saying about the culture/development etc but we still need talented players to work within that culture. No matter how great your culture is it's not going to turn Pedersen into Riewoldt or Terlich into Hodge.

Dude what the [censored] is with that avatar? I've been trying to wipe that nightmare from my brain for almost 3 years.

Apparently he wanted a new toilet door but of course she was dead against it. Sorry.

Easier in a 2 club city.....

Figures, You do one while dreaming about the other!!

Spencer has been rucking manfully, one week he has Cox and NikNat, then Mumford (who Roos reckons is a top ruckman) in the wet, give the bloke a break Roos thinks Bail is an improver, so all you haters will just have to hate I am going along thinking we have a 50/50 chance

If we beat Carlton Mick Malthouse could kill one of the journo's in the presser I reckon we are in with a chance, we need to get back to the sorta footy we played in the NAB cup against Richmond and Geelong

I think it will be hard to draw a line in the rain

For once I reckon Carlton will cop more than we might. We are a knwn basket case. They 'should' be playing finals.

Bail must be meditating really well.

We have a forward!!! Now just to get him through the warm up...

I hate Carlton. I won't eat in Lygon St.

i see your point and believe a lot in what you're saying: Blues by 45.

I don't want to get bogged down with PP talk the same as many others but let me just say this: It is a rule of the AFL that consistently poorly performing clubs can be given draft assistance. That rule doesn't disqualify a club because of previous drafting failures, obviously. It was an AFL rule that we would have got a PP due to our results, which the AFL dropped to our detriment. It was an AFL rule that created 2 new clubs and gave them all of the top end of the draft, at a time when we were crap and were trying to recover. It was an AFL rule that allowed our number 1 pick to run off to GWS in the first 2 years of his drafting by us and funded by AFL money. It is an AFL rule that has brought in FA, which is not doing what it was intended to do, but has seen us lose Sylvia, Moloney, Rivers and probably Frawley, more than any other club and at a time when we are on the bottom of the ladder. It is also an AFL rule that allows the AFL to have a fixture not based on fairness, but revenue, which has compromised our financial position for years. We follow the bloody rules, let the bloody AFL do the same.

With good draft picks, a solid coaching succession plan and some favourable draws, i'd say that within a few years we could win a game.

In the spirit of bargaining, I say we ask for last year's priority pick they denied us as well and go for picks 1, 2, 3 and 4.