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Gentlemen - enough. Please stay on topic and if you must abuse each other you can use the PM service. The rest of us aren't really interested in how you feel about each other. Thanks

I agree with most of what Webber writes except the part about his visibility. I don't know how others think but I found that he went about what he did fairly quietly and unobtrusively and I would often be surprised at the end of a game to see that he had picked up 24 touches. I suppose if he had a weird haircut or tatts all over his body or even a lower number, I might notice him more. Maybe, it's just one of those things?

i dont think anyone has got it 'wrong'... all of the above players should become very good AFL footballers. However, its silly comparing at this stage when none of them have even a dozen games under their belt......

A tagger that can turn around and become an effective attacking player when required is far more valuable than just a tagger. Clint Jones, Carrazzo and Crowley do this. Jordie McKenzie does not.

So the A league is getting 18000. Who are they competing against? Certainly not the AFL. I don't see any games of footy being played at the moment. The AFL has not missed the boat at all.

Funny how someone mentioned Gunston but no comment on the undeniable top key forward in Cameron. Of the rest Patton has done two knees and was never the most athletic. I see a lot of potential but he's coming from a mile back. I think he'll be like a Tom Hawkins. A big monster but never the most maneuverable and therefore if off his game he'll struggle. Daniher and Boyd are these new breed of 200cm types. They'll take a longer time to develop but both have that Kurt Tippett like ability to ruck and to just be too darn big for defenders. Boyd is stronger, Daniher more rangy. I'd be happy with either of them but the reason I like Hogan more is his versatility. He's got the fitness and agility that he can play CHF, FF, crumb goals, lay big tackles, out run big defenders, over power weaker ones.

I like how Hogan is 2 cm shorter than Patton and scores a 7.8 to Patton's 9.2 under "size".

That is refreshingly frank inventory of tastes there Dr Gonzo. I would expect nothing less. I believe I may have been on acid for the Entire 2013 season. The coach certainly seemed to be also.

There's no doubting it has been a lacklustre start, but it remains a long term project. The AFL seem determined to help themselves to a portion of what is a sizeable market and I doubt any panic buttons are being pushed just yet. It is however going to be a long haul to win people over as it would seem they've barely made a ripple yet. The Wanderers were always going to hit the ground running with the history of the region in the NSL etc, so it's not the fairest of comparisons. They have certainly breathed new life into the A League and good luck to them. Their fans are amazIng and the Giants would be well fortunate to attract fans with half of their passion and enthusiasm.

Until the AFL can solve the problem of crowding around the ball and this rolling scrappy maul that footy has become it will never win over NEW converts to the game. We still love it because we have always loved footy but to the new observer AFL level football now just looks like seagulls fighting over a bag of chips. Reduce rotations back to early 2000's levels (30-40 a game), spread the field out, bring back one on one contests and positional play and only then will there be any chance of converting fans from other codes

As others have said, I don't think it is a case of the AFL missing the boat, it is more of the AFL thinking they could just plant a team near a large population and the crowds and support would follow. Not that simple, people in the west of Sydney are not interested in AFL, and it will take generations to win them over. And for whoever is playing down the 18,000 crowd, you do realise that is capacity. They literally have not been able to grow the capacity of Parramatta Stadium quick enough to keep up with the juggernaut support of the Wanderers. Compare that to the huge amount of empty orange seats at Giants games. And only a fool would think that a few wins is the only difference.

Did AFL miss out on an opportunity, or are the demographics of Western Sydney of people, families with soccer "in their blood" who will naturally go to soccer (and throw flares)? In other words, has Dumbitriou in his bid to "leave a legacy" to match his megalomania actually stuffed up not the Western Sydney experience but rather stuffed up the (lower echelons of) AFL?

McQueen, I think the reason he is undervalued by so many Melbourne supporters is 'guilt by association'. As one of the group of 'ready made' players brought to the club under Neeld's direction, he is assumed to be a failure on account of that group (Pederson, Rodan, Byrnes.....) being perceived to have failed (not unfairly probably). Oddly enough also, the fact that he was very visible by playing 22 games and getting a fair bit of it, unconsciously strengthens the idea that he is symptomatic of the problem. The more objective reality, considering where he came from and the team he came to, is that he was simply an outstanding story. And that story has some way to travel I reckon. When you compare the positive sentiment that was directed to James Magner in and after his first year, the lack of respect for Matt Jones in a similar situation is just very odd.

Found footage from Nov 2012 Bulldogs time trial Princess Park Cross won easily with Boyd second then Gia.

Or the Werribee zoo. Feed em to the lions.

Yes I think there should have been a weighting score given to the various categories. If we look at the player histories of the likes of Dermie or Wayne Carey,even Arron Hamill, I think agression is a Hugh plus. How would Dermie have scored on this table, under sized, probably little endurance, speed? Not sure! What he did have was aggression, football smarts and the will to succeed. I am backing Hogan at this stage, he meets my criteria that should be a given for all our kids, he likes physical contact. Here is hoping that he can stop jarring his knees and that he re-signs at the end of the year.

Well thanks for that Robbie. I won't pass on your on your expert opinion and thoughts to my wife who has spent nearly 30 years teaching in schools for the disadvantaged in the northern suburbs, Greeks in Fawkner High, East Timorese at Richmond, battlers from Heidleberg, Olympic villiage, Sudenese, Somalies in Mcleod, you name it, she has had to deal with struggling kids from often dysfunctional families. But of course she doesn't get the results they manage over at Brighton Grammer but that must be a reflection on her abilities. As we know all kids are created equal and should be measured as such (and I blame Julia for this absurdity). Yes she may lean to the left but the last time I looked she was working at home after work hours developing the next days classes that concentrate on the process of learning and less on the content. She and the majority of her cohorts are not dodos, I can assure you. And as for the young ones coming through as teachers, when they can score a job, they are better trained and more prepared than our generation. But of course being on the public payroll I suppose they are all parasites in your mind. Would I be correct?

Footscray changed it's name to the Western Bulldogs to try and capture more members from the western suburbs in general. Did it work? Not really. The AFL went with 'Greater Western Sydney' with a similar strategy. Has it worked? Will it work? Not really. Should've gone with the Blacktown Bogans. Scully as the poster boy.

Can safely say Hogan is way better than the other 3 and I dont even feel biased saying it

To the contrary, if he was playing today he would struggle to even get drafted and probably just be one of those country footy superstars who never made it for personal reasons.

GWS had two purposes IMO. The first was to ensure there was a game in Sydney every week. TV rights sustain the code and this was necessary. It's something we rely on. Secondly GWS doesn't have to be the dominant sport in Western Sydney, it just has to have a presence, just like the Storm. Over time it will find a level and attract people. Why do you think they built such a small stadium. Some of the implementation has been botched and the AFL would be furious with Sydney pinching Franklin but the big picture decision was right on target.

Well I am sure that the guy isn't going to say on twitter "yeah they were right - I assaulted the cops". Great that the richard head is out of the game. Pity he is planning to return to Victoria though.

I'd say that given he's due to face court in February, there must have been a bit more to it than just a "misunderstanding".

Personally I really like Rohan Bail, but IMO he will struggle, with his disposal and concussion issues, to be in our side, if we are any good or hope to be.

Absolutely. I was there the day Casey played the Northern Blues and they had Matthew Watson standing him at full back. Watson was a late first round pick and was in his third season on their list but Hogan led him a merry dance all day until Watson (who was noticeably blowing) had to be taken off him. That's what I call leadership!!!I'm aware that Daniher has already had a few games in the AFL with Essendon as well but the table doesn't really take into account the experience Hogan's gained with a season at the club under his belt.

Having gone to a Sydney game at the SCG last year I would say that number is closer to 85%.

My wife asked me what I wanted to do today. I answered double header. She was perplexed at the thought and then not so happy when she found out what i meant.After watching the Seattle game it left me a little underwhelmed about the 'hawks. The saints couldn't put on any scoreboard pressure and being done for delay of game in crucial spots didn't help yet they were still in the game. The pats running game/strategy was brilliant. Brady needs the play action to give his not so great receivers a chance and it worked. Kap vs Cam I can't wait for that.

Sorry but as of now you cannot possibly say Viney, Trengove, Tyson, Hogan and even Howe are better footballers than Garland. Either they lack consistency or have been around for 5 minutes.Hogan hasn't even played a game yet. Garland is the second best player at the club behind Jones at the moment based on 2013 output.

Very sad to see players like Mclean & Sylvia not there anymore........They should have been our leaders... The club started to rot! huge losses off the field, unstable board,no secured training base.no clear pathway for success & always in survival mode! As we know now culture disappeared & replaced with losing one & hoping early draft picks would be the way up! Players lost faith & treated poorly ( Macca etc) Schwab & Connolly drove a wedge into the list & destroyed the fabric of a club!

lol

I take your point on this but wouldn't put Jones in this category. He would be one of the worst kicks in the game, we don't have total ownership of that inability. One that has been inconsistent with form and injury but used to defend and attack is Taylor-Hunt at Geelong. I'll be interested to watch his progress and see how they use him this year.

Tasmania does not expand the AFL product. It is all about the economics of sports broadcasting, and that is all about viewer eyeballs. Tasmania does nothing for that, but the Swans in Sydney, the Lions in Brisbane, and GCS on the Gold Coast have been largely responsible for a five fold increase in broadcasting rights dollars in the last 10-15 years. GWS admittedly is the biggest gamble, but I have no doubt they will see value there eventually out of further increased broadcasting rights.

Ever since they signed an unproven and inexperienced Tom Scully to a 5 year, 6 million dollar deal they were doomed.

Craig Mottram holds the Australian 3km record, which he broke at the age of 31, with a time of 7:32.19

Given he could have been big noting himself at the portsea polo today with the likes of dane swan Dustin Martin and Harry kewell...

Stopped reading at Michael Hibberd. This isn't a list of elite footballers, it is a list of elite super coach options.

The way some people are talking about Cross's kicking is absolutely ridiculous. The man was an absolute champion of a team that was pushing for a Grand Final spot and will bring nothing but leadership and 110% effort to our rabble of a club. Kicking may not be his strong point, but he by no means is completely bereft of the skill. To liken it to "Spencer in his first 1-2 years of league footy" is absolutely moronic and of the up most disrespect to a player (Cross) who is held in high regard and respect by virtually everyone in the game.

Champion Data is a joke James Frawley is an elite full back no matter how you slice it

I'd be pretty upset if the Great Southern Stand collapsed, too.

You tweeted him? seriously give the guy some space!

At Melbourne training after the trials from a friend on site, a quick summary and Impressed with their training level after their 3k trial Camaraderie was the best he has seen Guys looked fit and sharp, plenty of inside work with plenty of pressure from players, skill level high. 30 minute 3/4 ground use with players running off for handballs and zone kicking to a group further on contesting once again skill level very high all carried out out a good pace. Clark had a pressure bandage on high up the thigh and did little, Dawes ran laps, he was not there when Hogan limped off

How sad. Condemned to permanently being wrong on all issues because I may have posted something in support of the man in response to what I saw at the time as virulent attacks not based on hard evidence. Even though we now almost all agree CS was no good, I suspect a lot of the early criticism of him was the equivalent of what Maschy wrote in response to Saty congratulating himself on Hogan's injury - even a broken clock is correct twice a day.

Apparently Roos is currently in Hawaii before heading back.... but knowing our luck he still could get eated by an African Lion whilst visiting the Honolulu Zoo!!!!

Pretty impressive that a tall defender in Tom McDonald can come in second. Good player and valuable asset for the MFC.

There are worse players than M.Jones walking around with premiership medals. Seriously misguided statement.

Imagine if our Rd 1 forward line ends up missing all of Dawes, Clark and Jesse I'll cry a little.

If you don't know the answer don't answer the question. We all know where he ''probably'' was.

Struggle to understand why people are underwhelmed with Jones re-signing. He might not be a star but guess what, he was (according to our coaches) our 4th best player last season. We have to continue holding on to our good players and get over our dream of kids coming on with 'potential' and playing players before they are ready or before they have earnt it. It's this line of thinking which I believe has stuffed so much development so far. It's this thinking in which we let go players like Moloney and Rivers, who with all there faults, were very good players and we need more and more good players so these kids with 'potential' actually have to force there way in to the squad. I'd much rather Matt Jones playing in the guts getting his 20-25 touches a game rather than playing the Toump (who clearly wasn't ready) and watch him get completely smashed physically (and mentally) why he picks up his dozen or so touches. Although I can't see Matt Jones winning any All Australian spots anytime soon, I still believe he is firmly entrenched within our best 22. Let's see if Salem, Toump, Tappy, Blease etc are good enough to take his spot.

It is frustrating that the top three runners are probably the worst three kicks.

Oh dear. Yeah, "wiped the floor". Abbott was the victor according to Channel Seven and its raft of Today Tonight viewers, News Corp (massive shock), and Laurie Oakes, who is frankly showing signs that he's lost the plot entirely. The only remotely credible source that awarded it to Abbott I think was Sky News. Just about every other news outlet including Nine, Ten and the ABC gave it to Rudd. Abbott was a complete embarrassment. Just continued along the same path he has thus far, with all slogans and no substance. Granted, that approach appeals to simpletons, and those who said he won the debate justified it by saying Abbott kept his message simple. Yep, he kept it simple alright. Really, really, really, really simple.. I'm still none the wiser as to HOW he plans to strengthen the economy. and where he plans to find all these savings. What are his real plans with Gonski, or just education in general? What are his real plans for hospitals? What are his plans in aged care? (Oh that's right, "less red tape". I can almost hear the nation's elderly scream their praises in unison) How is he going to fund things like scrapping the price on carbon but keeping the assistance packages, and why does he keep giving the impression that its removal will have any meaningful impact to cost of living? Why do he and Hockey keep stating that they can't increase the GST without the consent of every single state and territory when that is not the case? "We have no plans to increase.." I guess we can classify that promise as "non-core". What are his plans at all, other than "stop the boats" and "no carbon tax"? Where are all these "real solutions" he keeps bullshitting on about? It's one week into the campaign and and already it's more spin, fluff and question dodging. I can't say I'm blown away to discover that you're an Abbott fan Benny, but I find the thought of this snake oil salesman becoming Prime Minister, with a bible tucked under one arm and a pledge of allegiance to the IPA tucked under the other, genuinely concerning. As should most Aussies.