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I suppose the least that can be said for you is that you've given up on the stupidity of trying to disavow the existence of a club's 'culture' and retreated to an attempt to attack the Swan's version of it. But you haven't given up the reductionist logic that runs through everything you've deposited on this thread, most obviously in your puerile equations that can be expressed as: premiership = good culture, losing = bad culture/no culture. But you can go on trying to 'demonstrate' that the Swans don't have the culture they say they have till you're red and white in the face. While your 'proofs' rely on the same level of reductive thinking, they prove nothing much at all. There's a long history to their efforts to reform Barry Hall and other 'troubled' players which your self-justifying summary overlooks. They also got rid of Hall, I think you'll find (though, according to you he'd gone 'insane' by then. Curiously, the Bulldogs didn't seem to notice that but I hope you get the chance to tell him some time). And, sure, leadership groups 'set standards'. The operative word there is 'set'. The cultural thing is about the kind of belief the whole team has in those standards, and how they enact them on the oval, as well as what those standards express of an idea about the club and its values. But it's about the Bloods that you haven't got a clue. Your efforts at dismissing the influence of this because of South Melbourne's history is another effort to prosecute your simpleminded equation of culture with success. The revival of the idea/identity of 'the Bloods' was, in fact, precisely about that history and that lack of success. They were at it again on the weekend, grabbing the microphone and yelling 'for the Bloods'. That's for the Bloods. It's a recuperation of history, an expression of solidarity and continuity with those old teams that allows present victories to overcome the failures of the past; and more importantly it's a gesture of solidarity with all those followers who remember the old South Melbourne and its various failures and stuck with the Swans regardless. It probably also helps them bundle up the failures of the early Sydney Swans (when, in Paul Roos' words about us, they stood for nothing) and get rid of them as well. Of course it's mythological. It's an idea, an invention. It's BS as Pitmaster wants to call it. But it works because it has also become a shibboleth, a word that marks membership of their group and sums up the values they've chosen to believe in, to 'buy into'. And it's one of the things they use to motivate themselves, to follow their leadership group rather than just listen to them. But go on dissing the Swans and their culture. It's a useful way of ignoring the problems with ours, even if it's also just a bit smug and lazy ... oh, but then that's what we're supposed to be, isn't it?

AA ruckman doesn't finish in top 10 in Eagles B&F.

Great post Dr ! There's no doubt that every club tries to have a winning culture, but to use the words of Denis Pagan, "if it was that easy everyone would be doing it". It's not easy. In a current article on the club's website Nathan Jones says, "I’m just looking forward to seeing how guys really take on that challenge, because I think we can improve pretty quickly if everyone buys in." He's still talking about players being prepared to "buy" in. To get 40 players, or even 25+ on the same page at a club would be very difficult, especially when many will have an axe to grind if they're not getting a game. But even more damning are these comments from Jones, “I think there’s a lot of talent on our list, but we didn't have the work ethic ingrained into us as a group". After 4 years of Bailey they're only now realising they didn't have anything like the work ethic required. Leigh Matthews states that the two ingredients he holds above all others when looking to draft a player is "talent and leadership". The talent aspect speaks for itself, but the leadership component is critical. Leadership allows a player to join a group and quickly assess what is important. To come to the belief that team success is more important than individual success. Many experienced players will tell you that it took them many years to embrace this aspect, which is why some consider leaving unsuccessful clubs when they're suddenly staring down the end of their career. But some players, like Trent Cotchin, embrace the team ethos from a young age. Sydney's leadership group is fantastic in instilling their standards and behaviours on new players coming into the club and they're left in no doubt early on that they won't get a game unless they implement the Sydney way. Great culture won't last forever. There's no point talking about the old Sth Melbourne, as they're no longer relevant. There's no point talking about the great Brisbane sides, as that culture has also gone with the great players that left. Culture isn't static and nor is it a forlorn hope. It's attainable with persistent hard work from talented individuals with the right leadership qualities to drive it. All clubs want it, but some are a mile away from having the personnel in place to deliver it.

When we picked up Clark every announcer had there opinion that he was not worth the money and would not bring anything to Melbourne. I do agree we may have spent a little bit more that what he is worth but he was the only tall forward available at the time and Melbourne did what they had to do to get him which I applaud them for that. After the half a season he played for us a lot of the critics changed there view on Clarky. With out Mitch Clark we have No Forward line, we need a player like Dawes.

Last Sunday morning I went with my son and grandsons to the MCG on community day at the football and I noticed the first written rules of the Melbourne Football Club painted on the walls. You can see them as you go up the escalator on the way to the Tridents section. The kids were fascinated by Rule VII. For those who have never seen them before, here they are:- The Rules of the Melbourne Football Club May 1859 Committee T.W.Wills Esq. T.Butterworth Esq. W.Hammersley Esq. - Smith Esq. Alex Bruce Esq. Hon Treasurer J.Sewell Esq. Hon Secretary J.B.Thompson Esq. I. The distance between the Goals and the Goal Posts shall be decided upon by the Captains of the sides playing. II. The Captains on each side shall toss for choice of Goal; the side losing the toss has the Kick Off from the centre point between the Goals. III. A Goal must be kicked fairly between the posts, without touching either of them, or a portion of the person of any player of either side. IV. The game shall be played in a space of not more than 200 yards wide, the same to be measured equally on each side of a line drawn through the centres of the two Goals; and two posts to be called the 'Kick Off' posts shall be erected at a distance of 20 yards on each side of the Goal posts at both ends, and in a straight line between them. V. In case the Ball is kicked behind goal, any one of the side behind whose goal it is kicked may bring it 20 yards in front of any portion of the space between the 'Kick Off' posts, and shall kick it as nearly as possible in a line with the opposite Goal. VI. Any player catching the Ball directly from the foot may call 'mark'. He then has a free kick; no player from the opposite side being allowed to come inside the spot marked. VII. Tripping and pushing are both allowed (but no hacking) when any player is in rapid motion or in possession of the Ball, except in the case provided for in Rule VI. VIII. The Ball shall be taken in hand only when caught from the foot, or on the hop. In no case shall it be lifted from the ground. IX. When the Ball goes out of bounds (the same being indicated by a row of posts) it shall be brought back to the point where it crossed the boundary line, and thrown in at right angles with that line. X. The Ball, while in play, may under no circumstances be thrown.

Clearly we lack what Hogan provides. We drafted Watts as a key forward and how's that looking ? We drafted Cook as a key forward and how's that looking ? If we didn't need young key forwards coming through why did we draft both of those players with first round picks ? And if we were well off for key forwards why did Rivers play half the year up forward ? Why did Garland spend time up there ? Hogan is a better key forward prospect than Darling. We're not expecting to play finals next year, so what's the problem with waiting one year ? He'll be 19 and a man mountain when round 1, 2014 comes around. And he's fast, agile, a great mark and aggressive. He will impact the competition in his first year. We can address a number of our issues this draft, especially if Viney comes at pick 26 or so. It's not a matter of getting Hogan, so we compromise other areas of need. For example: Hogan(3), O'Rourke(4), Garlett(13), Viney(26), Dawes(Rivers compo), Byrnes(FA) and other mids such as Towers(189cm with speed) and Graham will come into play depending on other potential trades and compensatory picks for Martin, Moloney, etc. We can achieve much from this draft and trade period even with waiting a year for Hogan. A year that will be well worth the wait.

What some posters here seem to forget is that both Tim Harrington and Mark Neeld have said that they would ideally trade a pick like 13 for an established player or players. This is probably because you can only develop a certain number of young players at a time without becoming overwhelmed. We would still have to develop another 4-5 draft picks from this year, plus quite a few from last year and PSD and Rookie players drafted this year. Imagine the resources needed. Bringing in established players helps with that development process.

Another AFL assisted Club raid - Scully and Tippett. Crows have had worst run than us, Bock, Davis & now Tippett - all funded by the AFL

Can someone tell me who led the combine results for the following categories - Leadership ability Ferocity at the contest Tackling Contested ballwinning ability Hands in close Core strength Balance Oh wait , how silly of me. The combine doesn't actually measure footballing ability, just athletic ability hence why that black american guy dominated a bunch of tests. Carry on.......

I wasn't panicked 4 question marks in, but was convinced by the 6th. Whatever shall we do?!

Should we have mismanaged him differently?

Yeah, we have plenty of 98kg 194cm CHF/FF beasts running around at Casey...

If you are interested enough. Bore yourself and read the thread - don't bore the rest of us by asking questions that I answered about 5 threads ago and in every thread since.

What other Forwards at 97kg with a yearning for pack marks with a beep test at 14 are out there? I can handle having a 17 year old monster train with us for a year,play at casey and then play round 1 2014. Getting Hogan won't hurt our chances of finishing top 4 next year. We won't finish top 4 anyway.

In all honestly, if Dawes is as good a forward as we can get, I'm all for focusing in mids and putting games into Fitzpatrick and Williams as forwards instead. Either one has more ability and upside than Dawes and I think is a better long-term prospect. If we do need to get in another tall forward, don't go halfway, target someone with real ability.

Oh no we have to wait one whole year to play what might be the next Jonno Brown for the next 10 or so.. I don't think we can wait that long- being a club that is used to that winning feeling, and all...

Who would of thought the 'Leigh Brown role' would become a popular piece of footy jargon...what a [censored].

Or, you could stop and use some reality, and realise that one of Collingwood's biggest weaknesses is that when Jolly needs a rest, they have to ruck Dawes. Who isn't a ruckman. So they've gone and got themselves someone to play the Leigh Brown role, which helped them win a flag in 2010. They're not directly replacing Dawes with Lynch. They need someone to ruck. If we take Dawes, we don't need him to ruck.

Going to be very interesting to see how Tippett actually gets to the swans. They have the lowest draft picks to offer, they can't get him in the draft if Adelaide refuses to trade. But more interesting will be the 'renown' bloods culture. The only way to secure Tippett will be to offload some players ... curious to know how strong that culture is when it is likely that they will have to give up some serious sort of player in order to get Tippett. I can't see Adelaide agreeing to anything less than one of their top 10 players off of the list. Are the swans prepared to damage their culture by being required to trade away a player potentially of the class of Hannebery, Jetta, Rohan or Kennedy.... Because that is what they will need to do to satisfy Adelaide. Bringing in a third party I don't think will help either, as the third party is going to want a quality 'premiership' player as well..... If the culture is as good as it is, why would any of these players want to leave, the club just won a premiership, they are likely to be on a better salary due to the extra cap,..

Sensible Pie friends of mine who see a lot of their team and are not the toothless rabble you see on the box rate him pretty highly. They say a hand injury this year troubled him and he did not hold enough marks but are hating seeing him go. I listened to the SEN link, and let's face it, MS wets himself over Natanui's highlights reel and seems blind to the many things NicNat does not do so his view of Dawes is not the final word. He ain't the almighty. I am still keen and it looks like he might go relatively cheaply. We might get lucky here or we might be masking a Pederson move. What do I know?

He had a rotten year. He is clearly gone. The club is content to see him go. But where are those who on this site once lauded his mentoring of young blokes with his self-designed three day boxing camp at Warrnambool? Or who reveled in him giving a whack to Brock when he walked out? Apparently we all thought he was terrific then. A little less pleasure in the bloke's misfortune, please people.

They are rumours Picket! i.e. not real, speculations... Best save your righteous bewilderment for when the deals are actually done.

I'm already convinced that if we take him at 3 he won't be any good. On the other hand I'm equally convinced that if he goes to the Gold Coast he'll be a champion. Could be MFCSS.

I have heard rumours of O'bama wanting to be our midfield coach maybe he means that. Can we get a centre clearance? YES WE CAN!!

Get hogan and wait. It will bear fruit at some stage

I could have been anything too, unfortunately I was nothing.

Three tautologies: 1) vacant mid-wicket gap; 2) basic fundamental; and 3) Adelaide feral.

Swans delegate stands up from table and walks off without answering.

Just did some Googling and found out that Rupert gave us four Ford Falcons which we sold to get Jimmy and Sean Wight in the Eighties. Wow. cant believe he has outlived both of them also.

Must be in the same retirement village as Johnny Farnham.

If the Suns have not planned to have Viney in their side than they have alot to lose by picking him. A huge amont of effotrt, planning and thought goes into choosing draft picks and there is a massive risk picking a player to basically spite another club. If we don't take him they're stuck with him and we essentially get the 2nd pick in the draft. That's huge for us, particularly as many pundits suggest Viney would fo perhaps somewhere 8-10. All their plans will be around a specific player as they know Whitfield will go one. And i bet they don't rate Viney the second best player in the draft. Huge risk and they won't take it. He'll go second round. As for benefiting us they don't want to start a war with us, its bad business. Caddy will be just the first of many Victorian players coming out of contract who might want o come home. The last thing the Suns need is a Victorian club targeting those players. Its funny in a way. If they nominate him with the expectation that we will take him it is form of draft tampering, albeit one they would get away with

They'll be drinking the bong water and crying in to their cloudy beers. But thats nothing new over there.

Genius! What could possibly go wrong with this plan? Ignoring that little thing about it not being at all how the system works, of course.

Byrnes Clarke Sylvia Howe. Dawes. Pederson Blease. Viney. Toumpas Davey. MacDonald Watts Garland. Frawley. Grimes Gawn Trengove Jones Inter Tapscott, Stringer Wines Fitzpatrick I would be very happy with this ...and very possible.

What a useless contribution this was. I wonder what opinion you have of most of the MFC players are, if Dawes is a [censored]? To me, this is just another case of the Better the Devil You Don't Know. You see Dawes out of form and make a judgement - we can do better. And now Pedersen is put on, an alliteration friendly, pedestal because you have rarely seen him. We have a bad team and while we have as much young talent than most teams - we are not competitive and I applaud the fellas attempts to make 2013 better than 2012.

The Oz is a well-known ethics-free zone.

To understand the good doctor's post and that of B-H and Goodvibes is to understand the enormity of the task facing Mark Neeld and his new regime in the post Daniher/Bailey era. It will also help us understand many of the changes in playing personnel that are taking place and why it was so essential to instal a new leadership group right from the get go.

A few snippets from the twitterverse in the wake of last night's Casey B&F. • congratulations to Tom Couch on winning the Gardiner Clarke Medal for club best and fairest. Tom was also runner up in the JJ Liston Trophy after missing a few games while on AFL duties; • it appears that the large majority of the group are sticking together for 2013 and are a keen to improve on a successful 2012. The club has an exciting future. • a few key people around the club are leaving. We know Brett Lovett has retired as coach and there is no news yet of his replacement. His long time assistant of nine years, Rob "Rat" Railton is moving on next year to be the senior coach at Wonthaggi and the club wishes him luck in the new position. • also moving on after five years at Casey is highly respected Head Strength & Conditioning coach Alex Sakadjian who has taken a full time role at Melbourne Football Club as Sport Scientist/Rehabilitation Coach. It's a big job and he will be working with the best in the field in David Misson and Neil Craig already at the club.

or his degenerative knee problem was flaring up? wasn't he limping badly?

Completely agree 'Bring-Back-Powell'. The football department has analysed our list and found some gaping holes: senior leadership, 2nd key forward target, rebounding defender, small forwards & midfielders. Byrnes fills the role of senior leader and small forward. Chris Dawes is a 2nd key forward target. Farren Ray is a rebounding defender who can have stints through the midfield. Regardless of how you saw them perform at their current/previous club (if they come across), if they fill the gaping holes in our list and play their role successfully in our team...isn't that all that matters? Adding these older players that can play roles for the team also means that players are not forced back into the team before they have earned a game, as happened a few times this year due to injury.

Gerald Healy, Greg Williams, Tony Locket, Peter Everett and Barry Hall disagree. I love the Swans attitude and culture but every year after the Grand FInal the story revolving around the teams involved is about how do they afford to keep the group together. Geelong players took less money to stay as a group and got flags out of it. This year the Swans look set to sign the best available tall in the game. Can't see how thats fair after winning a flag with an extra mil to spend.

I will genuinely surprised if Beamer is on an AFL list in 2013. I just can't see any List Manager saying "What this club needs is a slow 28 year old who couldn't get a kick in the worst midfield in the comp." I've posted this elsewhere, but I reckon Jake Spencer has got more chance of winning the Coleman medal than Beamer has of getting picked up.

Hardly Toolest-which is perfectly fine to discriminate against. Thats what tools are for. There are some great managerial role models out there. Roger Brent comes to mind but this guy reminds me of the manager of Flight of The Concords.

I am sure everyone on this board is sick of me talking about this, so unless I am asked direct questions on this topic I willl stop saturating this board with my opinion and go back to using it for info on our team etc. I like this board as it gives me a way to talk to my fellow dees supporters and I would rather discuss our club and get excited/not for next season with you all than keep talking about this however: So far I have heard that the swans culture (which I think has reached mythical proportions, not in the sense that it doesn't exist but in the sense it is talking about in hushed tones as the reason the swans are so good) boils down to: Leadership groups setting standards: It is my belief all clubs do this, the swans weren't the first to do it, they didn't have any more strenuous standards than alot of sucessful clubs and clubs with very little sucess have layed out similar standards for their players. All modern clubs have leadership groups setting standards and across the league these tend to be very similar. Also many teams with terrible off field cultures (Eagles circa 2005-6 is the most poignant example) have enjoyed sucess completely independant of their 'culture'. No dhead policy: First of all Barry Hall almost got himself put out of a GF with one of the most undisciplined acts of all time in the 2005 Prelim. It is my belief he should have got weeks and would have if not for the romantic notions of the Tribunal at the time. He may be a nice bloke off-field but onfield he was a colossal dhead punching players, head high bumping well outside the rules, breaking cheekbones behind the play and getting himself suspended so often it hurt the team. He was kept around in spite of this policy as long as he was playing well enough and until the swans literally had no choice after he seemed to have actually gone insane. Several other players at the swans have entered the club with bad reputations so I hardly think this policy exists. Maybe the swans like to think that they are all great blokes and coined this policy to make themselves sound really good, this smacks of being a bunch of arrogant dheads to me. Traditions of the bloods: The Bloods were one of the least sucessful teams in VFL history it makes no sense that their culture would all of a sudden be more sucessful than any other club. The unique feel of a club as determined by location, people within the club and the relative sucess of the club in a given era: This is the version of culture I give creedence too, of course this exists and of course when a club is sucessful they like to site this as the fact is hard training, good coaching, good recruiting, certain advantages (salary cap, home ground, being out of media spotlight) are far less glamourous sounding as a reason. The fact is that all clubs have this and the factors I have just mentioned have far more to do with sucess than this version of culture, I would say this is such an intangible indirect concept that it can not be seen as a factor in determining results. There's what I have come to in this thread.

I understand everyone's feelings about JRs shortcomings, however I reckon hes worth the 3 years. Has always been a favourite; perhaps I'm just sentimental

Oh well if facebook says it, that's it then.

One of the clubs that his manager said was interested, Hawthorn, said they know nothing about it and didn't even know who his manager was. Wonder if it's Beamer's manager?

Not me. I want him going to the GC for pick 2.

Unconfirmed reports that we've offered Martin, pick 3 & 4 for rounds of sandwiches.