7 minutes ago, drysdale demon said:

Yes, I thought that is what he is getting at, i do agree with durango's post though.

Unfortunately gambling affects people of all nationalities and having worked with the financial advisors of the Salvation Army from their Melbourne city mission for a number of years assisting problem gamblers I know all the stories only too well. Growing up in the Western suburbs I also know that all the pubs around there were mostly frequently by the one group.

I come from the same place, way out west, near your hangout. Believe me, it wasn't fun being a migrant in 1956...

And I vividly recall my dad being shocked at the carload  exodus to the Derrimut on pay day when the 'Shouts' were long and aplenty. My dad went once and after his first beer he was ready to go back to work...

Edited December 6, 20222 yr by Monbon

This topic should calm down and focus on footy only, not anyone's background.

Harry is a potentially great footballer. Let's leave it at that and wish him well.

39 minutes ago, Monbon said:

Yep: once again, context is everything. And, yes, he was a magnificent advocate for post war immigration, however, the context is called The White Australia Policy, which existed until very recently in our history. 

Yes again but his White was a member of the liberal party heckling him in a speech about why a Mrs Wong was being deported.

(rightly or wrongly, no idea) and he was reacting to the interjections from Mr White.  Again context in the early  50s just after a World War.  I was barely alive.

Maybe a bit off topic, but I’ve always been confused by the AFL and media and the way they talk about players. Drawing attention to Sheezel’s heritage is just another unnecessary example and it’s not helping.
They are trying to stamp out racism (hear hear) but continually draw attention to race. They have the indigenous round,  and they champion our (wonderful) indigenous players as All-Stars.

 https://www.foxsports.com.au/afl/afl-news-2022-indigenous-allstars-vs-world-team-exhibition-game-plans-date-players-lance-franklin-selection/news-story/27548be066a0bd91e2fe78a983bf4b7f .

Meanwhile the media ranks our 10 best indigenous players, https://www.zerohanger.com/marngrook-legends-ranking-the-10-best-indigenous-players-of-the-afl-era-84448/

They tell us our teams’ greatest indigenous player https://7news.com.au/sport/afl/celebrating-every-afl-teams-greatest-indigenous-player-of-all-time-as-australia-marks-national-reconciliation-week-c-7011990

When I was a kid, the media talked unnecessarily about Italian heritage: Barassi, Silvagni, Benetti and co.

I’m an old guy and i am trying my best to be a good and fair person. Kosi isn’t an indigenous player to me. He’s a Melbourne player. Sheezel isn’t a Jewish player, he’s a North player. And for that matter, Clarry isn’t a redhead, he’s a champion Melbourne player.

Does anyone understand where I’m coming from?

12 minutes ago, 640MD said:

Yes again but his White was a member of the liberal party heckling him in a speech about why a Mrs Wong was being deported.

(rightly or wrongly, no idea) and he was reacting to the interjections from Mr White.  Again context in the early  50s just after a World War.  I was barely alive.

Great info: I didn't know that. Thanks_ I always admired Caldwell.

10 minutes ago, Fanatique Demon said:

Maybe a bit off topic, but I’ve always been confused by the AFL and media and the way they talk about players. Drawing attention to Sheezel’s heritage is just another unnecessary example and it’s not helping.
They are trying to stamp out racism (hear hear) but continually draw attention to race. They have the indigenous round,  and they champion our (wonderful) indigenous players as All-Stars.

 https://www.foxsports.com.au/afl/afl-news-2022-indigenous-allstars-vs-world-team-exhibition-game-plans-date-players-lance-franklin-selection/news-story/27548be066a0bd91e2fe78a983bf4b7f .

Meanwhile the media ranks our 10 best indigenous players, https://www.zerohanger.com/marngrook-legends-ranking-the-10-best-indigenous-players-of-the-afl-era-84448/

They tell us our teams’ greatest indigenous player https://7news.com.au/sport/afl/celebrating-every-afl-teams-greatest-indigenous-player-of-all-time-as-australia-marks-national-reconciliation-week-c-7011990

When I was a kid, the media talked unnecessarily about Italian heritage: Barassi, Silvagni, Benetti and co.

I’m an old guy and i am trying my best to be a good and fair person. Kosi isn’t an indigenous player to me. He’s a Melbourne player. Sheezel isn’t a Jewish player, he’s a North player. And for that matter, Clarry isn’t a redhead, he’s a champion Melbourne player.

Does anyone understand where I’m coming from?

I get you, FD, however, once again context: the bottom line is that Australia does not have a proud record with regard to its treatment of its Indigenous Communities. The racial abuse Indigenous players have and still suffer is a blight on our society. It's about time we did celebrate their uniqueness, blew to the world their trumpet of what they have achieved culturally, especially with regard to what they can teach us about living 'with' their land', not exploiting it like we do and have, and, with regard to Footy, what magnificence they bring to the field.

1 hour ago, Monbon said:

I come from the same place, way out west, near your hangout. Believe me, it wasn't fun being a migrant in 1956...

And I vividly recall my dad being shocked at the carload  exodus to the Derrimut on pay day when the 'Shouts' were long and aplenty. My dad went once and after his first beer he was ready to go back to work...He had no concept of the notion of 'The Shout'.

 

Having been born in 1945 I grew up in a very different country my wider family and their friends either served in the military or had family and friends that had and knew people who were killed wounded or captured by the enemy. We fought the Germans and Italians in the desert, the Germans over Europe and the Japanese in Malaya, Singapore, New Guinea and Indonesia. There was a lot of prejudice and hate towards the Krauts, Eyeties Nips and Koreans. Whereas the Greeks, Free French, Chinese, Russians, Poms and Yanks were our allies.My father-in-law served 3.5 years as a prisoner of the Japanese in Changi, Burma Railway and in Japan working in a coal mine not far from Nagasaki and held the Japanese in the lowest contempt. As a country I have witnessed a huge turn around in how we treat and think about people and our differences but sadly we still have a long way to go but I have confidence in my children and grandchildren to continue to improve this country that we live in.

Racism is bad I agree.

5 hours ago, daisycutter said:

the trope about jewish people and money is also something widely sponsored by jewish comedians and jewish people in general in the context of comedy. So the context of john from eppings' comment would be relevant as to how/if racist it was

By the sounds of it, it could have been a borderline statement with regards to it's racist and/or offensive nature or at least intent to be so.

I do think it matters who and how it's said though.  You can say something self deprecating and it's completely different to it being said by someone else be it either with malice or in jest, which could border on humiliation.  Even when said kindly in jest as a form of endearment when it is known the individual will consider it as a playful 'in-joke', I think that only works in a really intermate relationship between the parties and that understanding is well established and respected. 

I think the context is that in a public forum it's going to be interpreted so many different ways, so it's probably best not to go there at all.  Perhaps give the individual that said it some benifit of the doubt, given the amberguity and without persecuting them for the comment apologise for it on behalf of the station and move on.  i.e. "we're not sure it was John's intent, but we realise that those remarks could be regarded as offensive and we appoloigise to anyone who was offended by those remarks".

I think to be totally silent on these matters is a form of endorsement of casual racism, but I can also understand that perhaps it might take Gary, Tim and their producers some time to process and reflect on that rather than having an immediate awareness on how to respond to the issue and perhaps given time they will.

Edited December 6, 20222 yr by Rodney (Balls) Grinter

The behaviour you walk past is the behaviour you accept.

And for those that are trying to argue that ‘comedy is where we need to be able to say anything’ - ok then. But radio prime time isn’t ‘stand up’ or a ‘sitcom’ and if the ‘joke’ misses the consequences now reign as they should. The Australian cultural twinge of “why are you making a thing of it?” In reaction to reaction is an archaic albatross around the neck of our immigrant-built and indigenous-guarded country.

2 hours ago, Monbon said:

Great info: I didn't know that. Thanks_ I always admired Caldwell.

That quote being taken out of context obviously gave Calwell the Edgar Britts as he addressed it in his autobiography Be Just and Fear Not  (I think that was the title). 640MD's version is pretty much as I recall. 

Garry was just doing his job. He was put in an awkward position. I think the show’s producer should be overseeing the 7 second delay to cut out offensive anti semitic slurs, not Garry Lyon. He may not have known what to say in response. Would any of us have behaved any better than Garry?

Edited December 6, 20222 yr by Thehardtackler

6 hours ago, durango said:

I came to Australia in 1949 and I learned to ignore comments like that because I was proud that my parents endured the Holocaust and survived.

We came to Australia with virtually nothing but the shirts on our backs and my father work 2 jobs and my mother worked from our rented flat to put food on the table and pay all the bills puting money aside to buy our first home in 1956.

Jewish people created their own wealth due to hard work and saving their money rather than going to the pub for a drink or the races to bet their wages hoping they could win a fortune.

These are facts todays generation of Jewish boys and girls have the luxury of the great grandparents, grandparents and parents who made sacrifices so they can have a better life than themselves.

So what I say to John from Epping try working and not complaining about others good fortune whether they are Muslim, Jewish or Christian.  

Sorry for enjoying life and not all Australians do that, and you talk about stereotypes.....

40 minutes ago, rpfc said:

The behaviour you walk past is the behaviour you accept.

And for those that are trying to argue that ‘comedy is where we need to be able to say anything’ - ok then. But radio prime time isn’t ‘stand up’ or a ‘sitcom’ and if the ‘joke’ misses the consequences now reign as they should. The Australian cultural twinge of “why are you making a thing of it?” In reaction to reaction is an archaic albatross around the neck of our immigrant-built and indigenous-guarded country.

Interesting...was just talking about this to my partner on the weekend.

Things have changed a bit since the days of Alf Garnett (at least on TV), you like her might be a bit young to remember it.

Just watched a clip on Youtube to see if I had it right and it was every bit as cringeworthy as I thought it would be.

I went to a funeral over the COVID period and an acquaintance was talking to a friend of his in Garnett type tones. The friend was of Indian heritage...I was embarrassed for him, well them both actually. I remember this stuff from the 70's, it was pretty much par for the course. I don't think there is any place for it today, even in so called jest.

 

 

 

 

7 hours ago, Monbon said:

Remember, that until Copernicus came along, the Western world believed the earth is flat. 

No.... people since the Ancient Greeks about 500b.c. new the world was round, not flat, simply observed from sailing ships going over the horizon.  They even had a good go at trying to calculate the circumferences, quite accurately as well considering the technology.

The idea that the world was flat is from an early modern play in London that was taken seriously (Human ignorance nature doesn't change, does it).

Copernicus big breakthrough was placing the sun at the centre of the solar system, not the Earth.

Know back to the topic :). 

Yes they didn't directly address the comment, but according to the article did explain how good the kid can be for the club.

 

 

 

  

13 minutes ago, darkhorse72 said:

No.... people since the Ancient Greeks about 500b.c. new the world was round, not flat, simply observed from sailing ships going over the horizon.  They even had a good go at trying to calculate the circumferences, quite accurately as well considering the technology.

The idea that the world was flat is from an early modern play in London that was taken seriously (Human ignorance nature doesn't change, does it).

Copernicus big breakthrough was placing the sun at the centre of the solar system, not the Earth.

 

 

 

  

Where does Galileo fit into all this?

Also did he invent the telescope?

Edited December 6, 20222 yr by layzie

1 hour ago, rjay said:

Interesting...was just talking about this to my partner on the weekend.

Things have changed a bit since the days of Alf Garnett (at least on TV), you like her might be a bit young to remember it.

Just watched a clip on Youtube to see if I had it right and it was every bit as cringeworthy as I thought it would be.

I went to a funeral over the COVID period and an acquaintance was talking to a friend of his in Garnett type tones. The friend was of Indian heritage...I was embarrassed for him, well them both actually. I remember this stuff from the 70's, it was pretty much par for the course. I don't think there is any place for it today, even in so called jest.

 

 

 

 

I don’t disagree but I know that comedy is layered. When Ricky Gervais steps over the line he does it to point out hypocrisy and tries to avoid ‘punching down’ but it won’t be free of consequence whether it is funny, rude, offensive etc and that is progress. 

‘Cancel Culture’ is just the end of silence of the people like in your story and them (and others) saying “I don’t appreciate you making fun of me/my heritage/my sexuality/etc”

4 hours ago, Fanatique Demon said:

Maybe a bit off topic, but I’ve always been confused by the AFL and media and the way they talk about players. Drawing attention to Sheezel’s heritage is just another unnecessary example and it’s not helping.
They are trying to stamp out racism (hear hear) but continually draw attention to race. They have the indigenous round,  and they champion our (wonderful) indigenous players as All-Stars.

 https://www.foxsports.com.au/afl/afl-news-2022-indigenous-allstars-vs-world-team-exhibition-game-plans-date-players-lance-franklin-selection/news-story/27548be066a0bd91e2fe78a983bf4b7f .

Meanwhile the media ranks our 10 best indigenous players, https://www.zerohanger.com/marngrook-legends-ranking-the-10-best-indigenous-players-of-the-afl-era-84448/

They tell us our teams’ greatest indigenous player https://7news.com.au/sport/afl/celebrating-every-afl-teams-greatest-indigenous-player-of-all-time-as-australia-marks-national-reconciliation-week-c-7011990

When I was a kid, the media talked unnecessarily about Italian heritage: Barassi, Silvagni, Benetti and co.

I’m an old guy and i am trying my best to be a good and fair person. Kosi isn’t an indigenous player to me. He’s a Melbourne player. Sheezel isn’t a Jewish player, he’s a North player. And for that matter, Clarry isn’t a redhead, he’s a champion Melbourne player.

Does anyone understand where I’m coming from?

Hmm isn't that giving an excuse to the idiots that make racist comments on these articles? The problem seems to lie with them doesn't it

 

A bit like saying a woman shouldn't have encouraged or drawn attention to unwanted sexual advances because they were wearing revealing clothes

2 hours ago, layzie said:

Where does Galileo fit into all this?

Also did he invent the telescope?

There were different people in different parts of the world, building upon a network of ideas and thoughts that were shifting all around the place. The first one to try patent the telescope was a bloke from the now German-Dutch border region, named Hans Lipperhey.

Edited December 6, 20222 yr by AmDamDemon

Think this is incredibly harsh on Garry. Think it was handled as best as it was from a professional manner, especially as it was put right on the spot. 

He immediately tried to divert the conversation back on his footballing ability which should have been the main topic of discussion all along.

Why wasn't there a threaded started few weeks back when Sheezal was called far more horrific names from social media trolls?

Can't pick and choose.

Edited December 6, 20222 yr by dazzledavey36

On 12/6/2022 at 5:44 PM, John Crow Batty said:

Was it necessary to print that article? He is Australian as well as not the first Australian of Jewish heritage to play the game. Media threw him under a bus as they do with others from non Anglo Christian European cultures. 

Really?

A player achieves something he has striven for all his life and is proud of the fact that he also represents a minority community. So let’s make him the victim and punish him by burying the story and driving it underground, lest the haters are allowed to get their five minutes in the sun. 

Which is just a few steps away from creating a repressive society that stops its minorities from celebrating their identities and prevents them from conducting activities that reflect pride in their culture whether based on race, religion, gender or the ways in which they prefer to live their lives. 

Strange how the victims here are mostly law abiding, hard working and loyal citizens but we can’t even tolerate them being out in the open, because they’re different in some way so they can’t even have representative teams.

Heaven help us if that’s where we’re heading.

As to the nature of humour and how it’s expressed, there is a wide chasm between making satirical jokes in a self-deprecating manner to highlight the stupidity of a subject and jokes that are made specifically to stereotype and highlight untruths.

The trope about Jews and money  (there are many needy and poor Jewish people in this country) is no different to claims that all Ingenous people are lazy or all Moslems are terrorists - all are ugly, untrue and tend to offend their targets. Attempts to justify their use in the way John from Epping did last week even if unwitting, are unnecessary and shameful.

A sincere statement of regret from those involved and some useful and positive learning on the subject are all that’s required.

Perhaps something like this one -

Radio presenter apologises over racial slur

9 hours ago, Thehardtackler said:

Garry was just doing his job. He was put in an awkward position. I think the show’s producer should be overseeing the 7 second delay to cut out offensive anti semitic slurs, not Garry Lyon. He may not have known what to say in response. Would any of us have behaved any better than Garry?

I should hope that some of us would have realised exactly what was happening and called it out.

12 hours ago, Fanatique Demon said:

Maybe a bit off topic, but I’ve always been confused by the AFL and media and the way they talk about players. Drawing attention to Sheezel’s heritage is just another unnecessary example and it’s not helping.
They are trying to stamp out racism (hear hear) but continually draw attention to race. They have the indigenous round,  and they champion our (wonderful) indigenous players as All-Stars.

 https://www.foxsports.com.au/afl/afl-news-2022-indigenous-allstars-vs-world-team-exhibition-game-plans-date-players-lance-franklin-selection/news-story/27548be066a0bd91e2fe78a983bf4b7f .

Meanwhile the media ranks our 10 best indigenous players, https://www.zerohanger.com/marngrook-legends-ranking-the-10-best-indigenous-players-of-the-afl-era-84448/

They tell us our teams’ greatest indigenous player https://7news.com.au/sport/afl/celebrating-every-afl-teams-greatest-indigenous-player-of-all-time-as-australia-marks-national-reconciliation-week-c-7011990

When I was a kid, the media talked unnecessarily about Italian heritage: Barassi, Silvagni, Benetti and co.

I’m an old guy and i am trying my best to be a good and fair person. Kosi isn’t an indigenous player to me. He’s a Melbourne player. Sheezel isn’t a Jewish player, he’s a North player. And for that matter, Clarry isn’t a redhead, he’s a champion Melbourne player.

Does anyone understand where I’m coming from?

Here here, the sooner we end the unnecessary add ons to boast our knowledge of a person, the sooner those who ponder it’s relevance to the conversation will cease.  
All for any person celebrating their own heritage, and when their story is being told to inject it with all the colour that describes it. But when it’s interjected into every comment (like pendleburys basketball background) it’s needless filler. 
 

off topic, love that clarry can tie his hair up. +5 visibility, just engrave his Brownlow now 

1 hour ago, dazzledavey36 said:

Think this is incredibly harsh on Garry. Think it was handled as best as it was from a professional manner, especially as it was put right on the spot. 

He immediately tried to divert the conversation back on his footballing ability which should have been the main topic of discussion all along.

Why wasn't there a threaded started few weeks back when Sheezal was called far more horrific names from social media trolls?

Can't pick and choose.

Could it be that it’s because this is DL and a former club captain was involved in this instance?

Edited December 6, 20222 yr by Blistering