Have we been worked out?

[YesitwasaWin4theAges 6,055]

6 minutes ago, At the break of Gawn said:

It’s funny how we solve one problem but then another one pops up. A month ago it was all about our forward connection and our lack of pressure inside 50. We’ve sort of fixed that up with a smaller forward line but now our defence is looking shaky.

I for one think Max needs to start to become a bit more accountable for his man rather than fill in the hole. He needs to decide when to go and impact the contest or when he can’t (Jackson included).

I’ll also point out that both of our most recent losses have been on smaller grounds where he can’t use the full width like we like to.

For me the real test is how we play against the next three weeks. Optus and MCG games are where we are best. If we can’t get it right then it’s good night on 2022.

 

 

We will be ready come Friday night and beyond. The belief and energy will be back.

Back in our people.

The other side of the coin is when the pressure is at its greatest in Finals Football teams tend to revert back to old habits when the tough gets going.

We have trained and played a certain way consistently for nearly 3 years we believe in our method, these others teams haven't had these moments of realisation that there football stands up.

Just go and ask Jeelong.

Edited July 25, 2022 by YesitwasaWin4theAges

[Bates Mate 4,017]

Opposition have known what we do and how we do it for a while. Issue isn't that we have been worked out. It is that we can't sustain our game plan for long enough . We started our 2022 pre season at least 6 weeks behind  2021 as we played at least a month longer than the previous year when we didn't make finals. then the required time off for players . I think this is a massive reason for our fade outs and losses.

 

 

Edited July 25, 2022 by Bates Mate

[At the break of Gawn 3,753]

9 minutes ago, YesitwasaWin4theAges said:

We will be ready come Friday night and beyond. The belief and energy will be back.

Back in our people.

The other side of the coin is when the pressure is at its greatest in Finals Football teams tend to revert back to old habits when the tough gets going.

We have trained and played a certain way consistently for nearly 3 years we believe in our method, these others teams haven't had these moments of realisation that there football stands up.

Just go and ask Jeelong.

I really hope you’re right.

[monoccular 16,513]

4 hours ago, Altona-demon said:

The Doggies game was an interesting tactically because a few clear tactics were deployed by the Doggies which were the cumulative effort of a number of teams studying our tape.  What was clear was that this was a departure from the usual Doggies game plan (although there midfield emphasis was still there) - so it was not as some pundits like to say "them backing in their system against ours".  What becamb e clear is that our system is not perfect (which is of course impossible) - and that there are certain tradeoffs that necessarily exist, which the Doggies were able to target. 

Here's what I picked up, but I'd be interested in what other DL'ers (especially those at the ground) were able to glean.

1. Targeting Gawn down the line, in D50, F50: a work on for our heroic leader is his body language when under adversity. It must be deflating to not have free kicks called in your favour week after week, but it helps noones case to "plead" with the umpires as if they'll change their decision.  It is also a poor leadership example for other players.  The Doggies clearly targeted Max with blocking, holding and chopping at the three critical points Max tries to insert himself.  In the hole, down the line, and drifting forward.  Bontempelli in one hillarious example just straight up pushed Max over, while English was only penalised once for the holding, and pulling on shoulders that happened to Max all game.  Some DL'ers will remember what Port Adelaide did to Max in Rd 1 2019 - and this remains a weakness for him. Either we start blocking for Max, or we watch his contested marking potency reduce. 

2. Sharking the first handball: teams have worked out that Melbourne's midfield is searching for "clean" exits from stoppage - in particular out the front.  The Doggies sat off Melb midfielders - and waited for the handball rather than be drawn into making the tackle and therefore creating the space.  This removes Petracca and Oliver's strength in being able to offload through tackles and create outnumbers and "negative space" outside the contest.  Put another way, by clogging the outer ring of the stoppage with bodies, rather than creating a "nucleus" effect, you negate our ability to exit clean from stoppage. 

3. Low hard bullet kicks - the Doggies have the players to try it and the reality is it worked. If it didn't come off it created a 50/50 groundball which they were able to split.  If it did it reduced our ability to have third man up, and or use our zone to create intercept opportunities.  In the absence of turnover on HB, we were deprived of one of our main scoring avenues. 

4. Play fast and draw Melbourne into shooutout open styles, including switching the play to "open" the corridor.  Hawthorn first showed that by taking us on through the middle, you can "draw" in our zone to the centred focal point of the corridor, then creating space behind it at the edge of F50, or in more dangerous areas. The constant switching forces the hard running Melbourne players to work laterally and (because they are zoned off players) to naturally give up a corridor advantage to the fat-side of their opponent player.  Bailey Dale was able to exploit this "zone" of offence on a number of occasions, and once it was centred - the Doggies were able to get deep entries into f50, and win territory. 

5. Exiting d50 - our predictable exit strategy out of d50 is well and truly worked out now. As people note, predictability is not necessarily a bad thing.  However, it's becoming clear that what we are really lacking is run off HB when exiting d50.  Our HB line and FB line if full of very good field kicks (May brainfades excluded) - but if point 1. is not working (ie contested potenncy down the line is reduced) we should have a second method of exiting d50.  If you study the way the Dogs transition from d50 to midfield and then into f50, this should provide a template for the way that the Dees can switch strategically. Run and carry from this part of the ground, may prevent defences sitting goalside of the contest down the line - attempting to create a re-entry. Ofc this will not happen (Hunt/Baker) these sort of players aren't in our squad and we prefer to maintain a structured defence - and let the ball do the hard work travelling up field. 

 

Great detail in your thinking, Altona.     Hopefully Goodwin will "take some learnings" from all this and maybe, just maybe, modify our plans.

3 hours ago, The heart beats true said:

Our system holds up very, very well if the players have the fitness base to execute on it. Interesting to note that if they blew the siren at 3/4 time over the last 8 rounds we’d have lost 2 games for the entire season. Not to turn every topic into a discussion about training loads - but in my opinion it proves we haven’t been ‘worked out’, we are being ‘out worked’ late in games. 

Thanks heart for bringing this up again.  

I think it is a combination of your thoughts and Altona's.    I guess only time will tell re the fitness (and "loading"), assuming that time actually enables us to be in a competitive position, ie top 2 or 4 come September.

[tiers 2,785]

There seems to me to be a disconnect between the final result and these overwhelmingly negative reports, GOTO's review and JoeBoy's three word summaries.

Yes we lost but by only 10 points and had the same number of scoring shots. They threw everything at us, changed their game plan, got the rub of the green from the umpires and and just squeaked home.

Could it be that we are still building for the finals both in fitness levels and in returning from injury. We know our game plan will work when we are all fit and well in six weeks time.

GO GOODY GO DEES

[IRW 1,291]

6 hours ago, Left Foot Snap said:

This is very interesting and combined with being a little off in our own gameplan, is a big reason we have been brought back to the pack. Hopefully we can work it out and counter before its too late.

It's fortunate we have an innovative coach always changing tactics to stay one step ahead then isn't it ( sigh)

 

[layzie 30,061]

2 hours ago, tiers said:

There seems to me to be a disconnect between the final result and these overwhelmingly negative reports, GOTO's review and JoeBoy's three word summaries.

Yes we lost but by only 10 points and had the same number of scoring shots. They threw everything at us, changed their game plan, got the rub of the green from the umpires and and just squeaked home.

Could it be that we are still building for the finals both in fitness levels and in returning from injury. We know our game plan will work when we are all fit and well in six weeks time.

GO GOODY GO DEES

They make it sound like our gameplan sticks and is in need of a massive overhaul. 

[DemonicFinalFantasy 210]

Personally I take solace in the knowledge that no other team wants to play us in the finals ... until they are forced to in the 2022 GF.

[IRW 1,291]

2 hours ago, tiers said:

There seems to me to be a disconnect between the final result and these overwhelmingly negative reports, GOTO's review and JoeBoy's three word summaries.

Yes we lost but by only 10 points and had the same number of scoring shots. They threw everything at us, changed their game plan, got the rub of the green from the umpires and and just squeaked home.

Could it be that we are still building for the finals both in fitness levels and in returning from injury. We know our game plan will work when we are all fit and well in six weeks time.

GO GOODY GO DEES

Are you watching  through the James Webb telescope because you obviously aren't on the same planet as the AFL?

[layzie 30,061]

I'll tell you what I've worked out? That I need to go home, been a long day and there's been a lot of food for thought. 

[Deemania since 56 6,283]

23 minutes ago, IRW said:

It's fortunate we have an innovative coach always changing tactics to stay one step ahead then isn't it ( sigh)

 

I'd rest a little more comfortably if I knew that Yze and Jordan, and Chocko, got together and sorted our team in the next few weeks. 

[Demonstone 19,809]

Which Jordan is that, Deemania?

[Gorgoroth 12,369]

We haven’t evolved. We are playing 2021 football in 2022

[The heart beats true 16,552]

Gees the people potting Goodwin have short term memories. If you can’t possibly cast your gold fish mind back 300 odd days to when we won the flag just take a look at the ladder and see we are second in a competition of 18.

Its embarrassing some of the rubbish people spout around here. I’m embarrassed for you, and I once brought a Rick Astley album - so I know about shame.

 

[Demonstone 19,809]

[KingDingAling 3,658]

We need to win games. Our game plan will hold up in finals we just need to make the top 4.

[Gorgoroth 12,369]

48 minutes ago, The heart beats true said:

Gees the people potting Goodwin have short term memories. If you can’t possibly cast your gold fish mind back 300 odd days to when we won the flag just take a look at the ladder and see we are second in a competition of 18.

Its embarrassing some of the rubbish people spout around here. I’m embarrassed for you, and I once brought a Rick Astley album - so I know about shame.

 

Sure, and prior to that he was poor and good. His coaching especially of late has been super rigid.

[picket fence 15,695]

12 hours ago, Altona-demon said:

The Doggies game was an interesting tactically because a few clear tactics were deployed by the Doggies which were the cumulative effort of a number of teams studying our tape.  What was clear was that this was a departure from the usual Doggies game plan (although there midfield emphasis was still there) - so it was not as some pundits like to say "them backing in their system against ours".  What becamb e clear is that our system is not perfect (which is of course impossible) - and that there are certain tradeoffs that necessarily exist, which the Doggies were able to target. 

Here's what I picked up, but I'd be interested in what other DL'ers (especially those at the ground) were able to glean.

1. Targeting Gawn down the line, in D50, F50: a work on for our heroic leader is his body language when under adversity. It must be deflating to not have free kicks called in your favour week after week, but it helps noones case to "plead" with the umpires as if they'll change their decision.  It is also a poor leadership example for other players.  The Doggies clearly targeted Max with blocking, holding and chopping at the three critical points Max tries to insert himself.  In the hole, down the line, and drifting forward.  Bontempelli in one hillarious example just straight up pushed Max over, while English was only penalised once for the holding, and pulling on shoulders that happened to Max all game.  Some DL'ers will remember what Port Adelaide did to Max in Rd 1 2019 - and this remains a weakness for him. Either we start blocking for Max, or we watch his contested marking potency reduce. 

2. Sharking the first handball: teams have worked out that Melbourne's midfield is searching for "clean" exits from stoppage - in particular out the front.  The Doggies sat off Melb midfielders - and waited for the handball rather than be drawn into making the tackle and therefore creating the space.  This removes Petracca and Oliver's strength in being able to offload through tackles and create outnumbers and "negative space" outside the contest.  Put another way, by clogging the outer ring of the stoppage with bodies, rather than creating a "nucleus" effect, you negate our ability to exit clean from stoppage. 

3. Low hard bullet kicks - the Doggies have the players to try it and the reality is it worked. If it didn't come off it created a 50/50 groundball which they were able to split.  If it did it reduced our ability to have third man up, and or use our zone to create intercept opportunities.  In the absence of turnover on HB, we were deprived of one of our main scoring avenues. 

4. Play fast and draw Melbourne into shooutout open styles, including switching the play to "open" the corridor.  Hawthorn first showed that by taking us on through the middle, you can "draw" in our zone to the centred focal point of the corridor, then creating space behind it at the edge of F50, or in more dangerous areas. The constant switching forces the hard running Melbourne players to work laterally and (because they are zoned off players) to naturally give up a corridor advantage to the fat-side of their opponent player.  Bailey Dale was able to exploit this "zone" of offence on a number of occasions, and once it was centred - the Doggies were able to get deep entries into f50, and win territory. 

5. Exiting d50 - our predictable exit strategy out of d50 is well and truly worked out now. As people note, predictability is not necessarily a bad thing.  However, it's becoming clear that what we are really lacking is run off HB when exiting d50.  Our HB line and FB line if full of very good field kicks (May brainfades excluded) - but if point 1. is not working (ie contested potenncy down the line is reduced) we should have a second method of exiting d50.  If you study the way the Dogs transition from d50 to midfield and then into f50, this should provide a template for the way that the Dees can switch strategically. Run and carry from this part of the ground, may prevent defences sitting goalside of the contest down the line - attempting to create a re-entry. Ofc this will not happen (Hunt/Baker) these sort of players aren't in our squad and we prefer to maintain a structured defence - and let the ball do the hard work travelling up field. 

 

Excellent Summation Altona Demon... care to come and do a a co host Picket Fence Training report?? You don't get paid, but on this occasion I'm happy to give you all proceeds!!

[Demon Dynasty 16,154]

Two critical areas that keep popping up for mine....

1.  Hunt for Salem or JJ (see point two... then feel free to commence rants!)

Get some line breaking run and some controlled chaos / overlap off HB!  Too stagnant and slow with transition allowing the oppo to set up both down the line and cover off our exits & block the lanes of our leading KFs / other forwards.

In other words.... our transition is pedestrian slooow both by style and nature.  Speed up our transition for better looks for our forwards.  If not expect to see the ball being rebounded far more often, copping entry after entry into our D 50 (where the better teams will score!).

One potential player solution is playing at Casey, but instead we prefer mostly plodders who can't break lines and can't / won't kick more than about 35 to 45 meters down the line (May the exception who can go longer at times but an extra 5 meters or so really doesn't cut it).  Most refuse to pull the trigger with inside kicks or longer switches, bar May and Salem (who recently doesn't seem to want to do much outside of short kicks lateral or slightly forward and has lost his zip off the mark to break out of congestion).

Defence very very predictable and too slow with decision making regardless.  Don't get me wrong, slow play is critical to ice and seal quarters/games and/or try and stop the oppo's momentum at certain times.  So yes there is a place for it during matches.

Rivers of 2021 also didn't mind taking on the game and attacking when confidence was up.  Hibberd on occasions and has shown intent after coming back, not so sure about execution though vs the 2021 Hibb version.

Also Hunt can break to the right (Langdon wing) side and hook up with Lingers for a decent change up vs the predictable kick to the left wing from May.  He does this a number of times in the 2021 highlights below.  Need to show the opp diff looks if we're going to turn our recent form around...

 

2.  Gus back to the wing pls!!  I don't care how it's done just get him there.  If that means JJ goes back to play Salem's role, or one of them ends up the sub so be it.

Watch the 2021 highlights below.  He is mostly impacting through the middle and just forward / around the arc.  Basically patrolling between the two arcs but slightly middle/forward more of the time.  Less time spent (especially vs 2022) entering the oppo's 50 to defend deep...

 

Edited July 25, 2022 by Demon Dynasty

[Engorged Onion 9,548]

I was thinking about the difficulties of winning the premiership and then backing up the following year, over lunch when eating my home made ramen and staring off into the middle distance, trying to avoid the eyes of my wife who is working from home, after a heated discussion this morning about some topic of no real relevance to here* - but enough to illustrate the point, that at times, in a relationship, one of us feels as though no matter what we do, we can't quite get it right all the time for that person... and then THAT led me to thinking about the relationship between a coach (Goodwin) and the supporters of said team.

Goodwin, who has given us the ultimate joy less than a year ago, is on a hiding to nothing in this relationship from some sectors. Prior to winning the grand-final, he was derided for a whole host of reasons, too rigid in system, a poor game day coach, played favourites, couldn't win against poorer teams, fitness isn't up to it, they're not hungry enough, he doesnt motivate enough, game plan has been found out etc etc.

Subsequent to the evidence that he (the club, the players) are good enough, he now needs to meet the previous year standards at an emotional level for the supporter. Not an intellectual one - we all 'get' its hard to go back to back for a whole range of reasons, but then some sections of the supporter base, fall back into deriding him, the players for - too rigid in system, a poor game day coach, played favorites, couldn't win against poorer teams, fitness isn't up to it, they're not hungry enough, he doesn't motivate enough, game plan has been found out etc etc.

So I was pondering what's worse emotionally?

The disappointment that your team is never good enough?  (pre 2021)

or

Knowing your team is and was good enough, and there is now a violation of expectations (a dynasty??), as things aren't tracking as you would expect. (post 2022).

 

It's a pretty [censored] short honeymoon period eh...but we're not here to [censored] spiders.

 

*you'd probably never guess that I like to talk and talk...but all is repaired with my dearest after a bit of listening...

Edited July 26, 2022 by Engorged Onion

[Vipercrunch 2,818]

37 minutes ago, Engorged Onion said:

I was thinking about the difficulties of winning the premiership and then backing up the following year, over lunch when eating my home made ramen and staring off into the middle distance, trying to avoid the eyes of my wife who is working from home, after a heated discussion this morning about some topic of no real relevance to here* - but enough to illustrate the point, that at times, in a relationship, one of us feels as though no matter what we do, we can't quite get it right all the time for that person... and then THAT led me to thinking about the relationship between a coach (Goodwin) and the supporters of said team.

Goodwin, who has given us the ultimate joy less than a year ago, is on a hiding to nothing in this relationship from some sectors. Prior to winning the grand-final, he was derided for a whole host of reasons, too rigid in system, a poor game day coach, played favourites, couldn't win against poorer teams, fitness isn't up to it, they're not hungry enough, he doesnt motivate enough, game plan has been found out etc etc.

Subsequent to the evidence that he (the club, the players) are good enough, he now needs to meet the previous year standards at an emotional level for the supporter. Not an intellectual one - we all 'get' its hard to go back to back for a whole range of reasons, but then some sections of the supporter base, fall back into deriding him, the players for - too rigid in system, a poor game day coach, played favorites, couldn't win against poorer teams, fitness isn't up to it, they're not hungry enough, he doesn't motivate enough, game plan has been found out etc etc.

So I was pondering what's worse emotionally?

The disappointment that your team is never good enough?  (pre 2021)

or

Knowing your team is and was good enough, but there is now a violation of expectations (a dynasty??), as things aren't tracking as you would expect. (post 2022).

 

It's a pretty [censored] short honeymoon period eh...but we're not here to [censored] spiders.

 

*you'd probably never guess that I like to talk and talk...but all is repaired with my dearest after a bit of listening...

Great post.  I was reminded today, that at the moment the photo below was taken in Round 23, 2021, we had not sealed the minor premiership and had no idea of the dominating finals series we were about to produce.  The reality of our 2021 season was that it had periods where we stunk it up and looked no chance.  Same team, same coach, same staff (DB left but there is no indication the Griffith is doing anything differently).

 

[Engorged Onion 9,548]

1 minute ago, Vipercrunch said:

(DB left

Maybe it's the SB shaped void instead? 🤷‍♀️

Edited July 26, 2022 by Engorged Onion

[chook fowler 18,464]

it is pretty clear - 14th for pressure acts this year vs 1st last year. Intensity has to lift. No change in game plan will make a difference unless the appetite for the contest returns. 

[Deemist 57]

Good discussion on SEN this morning between Whateley and Bucks.  Starts 2.43 in.

 

Edited July 26, 2022 by Deemist

[deebunked 285]

Gawn sounded very confident about a six day break and play Friday night against Freo.

There will be 40k at the game 39,900 of them Freo.

Get over the bias umpire factor and we can win this. Its time for the premiers to go to our A1 level. We have only a few injuries they lost Fyfe.