POSTGAME: Rd 11 vs Fremantle

[At Least I Saw a Flag 5,204]

I was wandering through MCC members at HT. Bumped into Gary Pert ... said "thank you so much". He nodded knowingly and put his hand out. We shook hands ... nice guy. 

[Guest]

LOL on Saturday my fellow banner raisers and I were standing in the race sorting out who’d be doing what (hashtag well-oiled machine). Our Freo counterparts came down the race. Silence. We parted to let them through, because while we’re insanely loud and passionate lunatics, we’re nothing if not polite.
It was like High Noon. Stink-eye abounded. Daggers flying in all directions. 😁 #CheerSquadWars

[Dr. Gonzo 24,121]

19 hours ago, titan_uranus said:

The problem with winning 17 on the trot and a flag, if there can be a problem with that, is the height of the bar that it sets.

Good sides play bad games in almost every year.

The media love talking about 2018 Richmond and comparing us to them. In 2018 Richmond lost mid year to West Coast by 47 points. Remained the dominant H&A side that year.

Then in 2019 Richmond lost six games, each one by at least 33 points, and one by 67 points to Geelong in Round 13.

The point being that good sides, even great ones like 2018-19 Richmond, can lose games badly.

The fact we didn't lose one badly at all in 2021 is a testament to how good we are, not a cause for this level of concern in 2022.

Exactly, in 2008 Collingwood beat Geelong by 86 points in round 9. I'm not too worried about the loss it is the response I'll be looking at.

[dazzledavey36 54,087]

I reckon we underestimated how big of a loss James Harmes was.

Hes another big bodied midfielder that could have been swung into the midfield when it was evident Petracca was struggling with illness and had to play up forward.

They tried Sparrow but he got a bit overwhelmed with it all. Harmes is at least an experienced solider who would have even done a lock down job as Brayshaw and Serong got on top of us around the clearances. 

[Jaded No More 68,835]

9 minutes ago, dazzledavey36 said:

I reckon we underestimated how big of a loss James Harmes was.

 

Particularly when his replacement was Dustan, who is so one dimensional and has very ordinary disposal. 

Harmes gives us a lot of positional flexibility as you say. It's also why Tmac is so important, because he can go down back and can even pinch hit on the wing. 

Edited May 30, 2022 by Jaded No More

[DubDee 25,433]

Anyone got a short clip of the Spargo mark? From memory it was a bit of a speccy?

[Ted Lasso 19,191]

What i found interesting was Petracca wasn't right, Sparrow was struggling, getting smacked out of the middle but we didn't try Brayshaw in there at all

really speaks to the value placed on the role he's playing down back.

In terms of the game more broadly, and injured May and Petty makes things hard. we've never been a dominant 4 quarter team, our strengths have been defending opposition momentum and capitalising on our own. with those injuries our ability to restrict the dockers momentum was almost zero. 

Hats off to the dockers for being able to expose it, but at the same time we should be very confident of making it 1 all when we play them in round 20

Edited May 30, 2022 by Dwight Schrute

[poita 3,889]

Nothing wrong with an occasional loss, but the manner of this one was very concerning. There was so little fight or willingness to compete after half time, that you hope there was some kind of illness debilitating the entire group.

I've been critical of our depth for some time, but I really disappointed with how little fight the replacements showed. Melksham was invisible throughout, Weidman half-hearted and disinterested, Dunstan insignificant and Bedford disappeared after half time. All four should come straight back out this week, and will drop well down the pecking order for replacements.

I said before round 1 last year that it needed to be B.Brown or Weideman, and McDonald or M.Brown. You can't play Weideman and B.Brown together because they want to win the ball in the same spots and get in each others way. Plus neither chases. Both were woeful, but I'd back Brown in 100 times before we bring back Weideman.

We've been playing russian roulette with medical subs for some time, and it finally blew up in our faces. You simply can't afford to have one dimensional players as subs, and that covers all of Bedford, Chandler and Dunstan. At least Tomlinson can play a few positions, or release others to do so. 

The decision to play Petracca, whether made by player, coach or doctor, was exceptionally poor.

I couldn't believe that we would play Spargo on the wing for the entire game when he had no influence, but to have him paired with Melksham for long stretches left us exposed on both sides of the ground. We should have tried Neal-Bullen or Bedford in the role, who are much better runners. Spargo is clearly the best inside 50 kick in the team, and our connection going forward clearly suffered by him playing our of positoin.

Finally why did we front up to centre bounces with the same combination for almost the entire third quarter? Petracca was a witches hat, Jackson didn't get a single tap to advantage in the game, and Viney and Oliver were both horribly out of position. We should have thrown Pickett or Dunstan or Weideman in there for something different. 

Looking forward to a much improved effort, with or without returning star players, this week.

[jnrmac 20,040]

Our structures were all over the place. Weid at FBack, Spargo on the wings, mids being crucified (Oliver in 1st half excepted), our contested marking was non existent as they thrashed us in the air....

Talls are a problem for us. Brisbane with Daniher and Hipwood and McStay are difficult, Carlton with McKay and Curnow will be interesting and Freo clearly beat us there.

 

Despite this we kicked 3 posters and if Fritsch and Dunstan kick those goals in the 2nd qtr we would have been 42ish points up.

Edited May 30, 2022 by jnrmac

[Demon17 5,146]

4 hours ago, Winners at last said:

It was actually 17 ... like your name!!!

Thanks. The wins all seem the same after a while and i lost count. Except for the pf and gf that is.

[dazzledavey36 54,087]

1 hour ago, Jaded No More said:

Particularly when his replacement was Dustan, who is so one dimensional and has very ordinary disposal. 

Harmes gives us a lot of positional flexibility as you say. It's also why Tmac is so important, because he can go down back and can even pinch hit on the wing. 

Yeah look I thought Dunstan would have been a handy pick up for us from a depth perspective, but he really is one dimensional..

14 minutes ago, poita said:

Nothing wrong with an occasional loss, but the manner of this one was very concerning. There was so little fight or willingness to compete after half time, that you hope there was some kind of illness debilitating the entire group.

I've been critical of our depth for some time, but I really disappointed with how little fight the replacements showed. Melksham was invisible throughout, Weidman half-hearted and disinterested, Dunstan insignificant and Bedford disappeared after half time. All four should come straight back out this week, and will drop well down the pecking order for replacements.

I said before round 1 last year that it needed to be B.Brown or Weideman, and McDonald or M.Brown. You can't play Weideman and B.Brown together because they want to win the ball in the same spots and get in each others way. Plus neither chases. Both were woeful, but I'd back Brown in 100 times before we bring back Weideman.

We've been playing russian roulette with medical subs for some time, and it finally blew up in our faces. You simply can't afford to have one dimensional players as subs, and that covers all of Bedford, Chandler and Dunstan. At least Tomlinson can play a few positions, or release others to do so. 

The decision to play Petracca, whether made by player, coach or doctor, was exceptionally poor.

I couldn't believe that we would play Spargo on the wing for the entire game when he had no influence, but to have him paired with Melksham for long stretches left us exposed on both sides of the ground. We should have tried Neal-Bullen or Bedford in the role, who are much better runners. Spargo is clearly the best inside 50 kick in the team, and our connection going forward clearly suffered by him playing our of positoin.

Finally why did we front up to centre bounces with the same combination for almost the entire third quarter? Petracca was a witches hat, Jackson didn't get a single tap to advantage in the game, and Viney and Oliver were both horribly out of position. We should have thrown Pickett or Dunstan or Weideman in there for something different. 

Looking forward to a much improved effort, with or without returning star players, this week.

Yeah Goody and the coaching staff didn't have a great night in the coaching box unfortunate. 

People on here having their red and blue goggles on last week when trying to justify Melksham playing his role as a wingman last week have now gone missing or have remained quiet. He's been garbage this year and I honestly would have rather just given Oskar Baker a run against Freo just knowing that at least he tries to take the game on with his run and dash. 

Having Spargo on the other wing robbed us of his inside 50 pressure and clean delivering as well. I do get why they tried him there having already 3 smalls up forward in Pickett, Bedford and ANB.

[roy11 3,823]

I still think our depth is reasonable standard, we just had an off day (and had some key personnel out) against a good team. Unfortunately missed a few players which caused flow on impact on other positions (especially after May/Petty injuries).

Yes there were some tactical issues but hopefully these are resolved with the returning players and the game plan/effort return this week. 

[sue 9,096]

14 minutes ago, jnrmac said:

...

 

Despite this we kicked 3 posters and if Fritsch and Dunstan kick those goals in the 2nd qtr we would have been 42ish points up.

Despite all the negative factors about our performance that have been dicussed, if we had kicked the first goal in the last quarter (which almost happened) it is possible we could have gone on to win. But when Freo got it, I suspect the mental attitude of our players went south and they started to think a loss has to happen, players out etc and threw in the towel.   Impossible to prove of course.  A win in that match would have made us unrealistically arrogant. So maybe good we didn't get that goal.

[titan_uranus 24,963]

Really not a huge fan of posts criticising effort or lack of fight.

Fight and effort were there. What wasn't there was skill under pressure. The stats have been bandied around today: we had first possession in 5 of the 10 centre bounces in the third quarter, but only converted that to a clearance once. Fremantle brought heat and we struggled to deal with it. Without Petracca, with Darcy on top of Gawn, and with Aish tagging Oliver, we needed Sparrow, Dunstan, ANB and Jackson to stand up. Disappointingly, none of of them did.

12 hours ago, dazzledavey36 said:

I reckon we underestimated how big of a loss James Harmes was.

Hes another big bodied midfielder that could have been swung into the midfield when it was evident Petracca was struggling with illness and had to play up forward.

They tried Sparrow but he got a bit overwhelmed with it all. Harmes is at least an experienced solider who would have even done a lock down job as Brayshaw and Serong got on top of us around the clearances. 

Yep. He also could have been another marking forward option, given all we had was Brown who was being double-teamed and Fritsch. No one else able to attract the ball, and it showed.

Again though, it highlights the disappointing performances of Sparrow, Dunstan, ANB and Jackson, as well as the obvious poor game from Melksham. We needed lifts from the second/third string players when the A-graders were down/out. We didn't get it. Against a lesser side we might have coped, but against Fremantle no chance.

[Demon Dynasty 17,109]

Just watched the highlights up to half time.  Then the entire third quarter.

Wow.... did we hand them the match.

Don't get me wrong the Dockers brought some solid heat and pressured the carrier well.  Finished work up forward etc.

But between some of the dodgy ump decisions (in particular the first one against Lever to Tabenar) and our poor decision making plus clangers.   No wonder we got our [censored] handed to us in that second half.

I'm sure Goody & Co. will be into this but i sure hope they drill down into that third quarter in particular. Wouldnt want some of those habbits to catch or we'll be seeing consecutive losses in the coming weeks before the buy.

Fix that [censored] up 😅

Oh...and Tracc playing through a sicko!??  Get thee home boy, take a bex and a good lie down!

Carn the Mighty Demons!!

P.S. no team can cover FIVE players down for an entire match!  Other than against the two lowest teams ...maybe.

Edited May 30, 2022 by Demon Dynasty

[KingDingAling 3,752]

12 hours ago, poita said:

Nothing wrong with an occasional loss, but the manner of this one was very concerning. There was so little fight or willingness to compete after half time, that you hope there was some kind of illness debilitating the entire group.

I've been critical of our depth for some time, but I really disappointed with how little fight the replacements showed. Melksham was invisible throughout, Weidman half-hearted and disinterested, Dunstan insignificant and Bedford disappeared after half time. All four should come straight back out this week, and will drop well down the pecking order for replacements.

I said before round 1 last year that it needed to be B.Brown or Weideman, and McDonald or M.Brown. You can't play Weideman and B.Brown together because they want to win the ball in the same spots and get in each others way. Plus neither chases. Both were woeful, but I'd back Brown in 100 times before we bring back Weideman.

We've been playing russian roulette with medical subs for some time, and it finally blew up in our faces. You simply can't afford to have one dimensional players as subs, and that covers all of Bedford, Chandler and Dunstan. At least Tomlinson can play a few positions, or release others to do so. 

The decision to play Petracca, whether made by player, coach or doctor, was exceptionally poor.

I couldn't believe that we would play Spargo on the wing for the entire game when he had no influence, but to have him paired with Melksham for long stretches left us exposed on both sides of the ground. We should have tried Neal-Bullen or Bedford in the role, who are much better runners. Spargo is clearly the best inside 50 kick in the team, and our connection going forward clearly suffered by him playing our of positoin.

Finally why did we front up to centre bounces with the same combination for almost the entire third quarter? Petracca was a witches hat, Jackson didn't get a single tap to advantage in the game, and Viney and Oliver were both horribly out of position. We should have thrown Pickett or Dunstan or Weideman in there for something different. 

Looking forward to a much improved effort, with or without returning star players, this week.

It was a terrible coaching performance by Goodwin. One of his worst. But I half let him off the hook due to pressure. How much pressure it takes to remain undefeated, and is that even worth it? Ideally we’d love to breed this culture of absolute ruthless winners and never drop a game - but that’s unrealistic. Goodwin does make a point of teams losing eventually, like it was something he’d obviously been reflecting on. This loss, as bad as the media make it out to be, will relieve a lot of pressure. We still sit on the top of the ladder a game clear, we still look like the team to beat, and we are also in a better position than we were last year. I expect to see our players now play with even more freedom. Which is good, because on the weekend when we did that - we were too much for Fremantle, and all going well (injuries), we are far too much for Fremantle, who aren’t the best side in the comp or even close. Everyone knows our game plan, we now know Fremantles, and we get to see how Brisbane approach Fremantle. Many sides have had a crack at us and came up short. Let’s see Fremantle defend their game style, which isn’t at all conducive to finals like pressure. Ours is.

You definitely make a great point about Brown and Weideman in the same side. I see that too. JVR also plays similar to TMAC, although may not be ready just yet but should get his chance in the back end of the season. Mitch Brown is underrated and should probably get a go at it soon. He was great at Essendon, has been very good at Casey, and just continues to get overlooked. 

 

 

 

Edited May 30, 2022 by KingDingAling

[DeeZone 9,535]

On 5/29/2022 at 7:46 PM, DeeZone said:

On a different slant my concern is that we are scratching to fill the holes. Thommo played a great game today so he is an in but who could come in for a JJ or Sparrow or Spargs. Freo have a lot of height in their team that can kick and mark very well let’s hope that Rosman and Turner can step up in 2023. There are a number of sides building height into their teams and that is the area that we need to focus on going forward.!!!!!!

I failed to mention Joel Smith and young Howes as mid size talls so hopefully Howes comes on in leaps and bounds next year and how handy would a fit Joel be at the moment. My wish list is for a young ruckman, another tall utility and a young tall mid with clean hands and a big heart even better if he has red hair and can impact immediately.

[titan_uranus 24,963]

8 hours ago, KingDingAling said:

It was a terrible coaching performance by Goodwin. One of his worst.

Expand on this. In what way was Goodwin “terrible”?

We lost to a top 4 team with 5 premiership players out, May done after 10 minutes, Petracca sick and Petty limping. You think that’s one of Goodwin’s worst performances? You remember we finished 17th in 2019, right?

[Brownie 5,967]

On 5/28/2022 at 11:00 PM, Antioch said:

We are missing elite fitness coach Darren Burgess.

I think so too. One of our best weapons is our hard two way running and most of our players seem to be carrying injuries or just seem off the boil.

[Lord Nev 13,512]

On 5/28/2022 at 11:00 PM, Antioch said:

We are missing elite fitness coach Darren Burgess.

He's hard to replace, in no small part because he's like having an extra assistant coach as well.

BUT... Let's keep in mind that about the same time last year (rounds 10-16) we lost 3 out of 6 games as many Demonlanders noted that the combination of seeming flat during games and Burgess' history of 'loading' possibly added up to us gearing our fitness towards finals.

That worked out ok hey?

[KingDingAling 3,752]

37 minutes ago, titan_uranus said:

Expand on this. In what way was Goodwin “terrible”?

We lost to a top 4 team with 5 premiership players out, May done after 10 minutes, Petracca sick and Petty limping. You think that’s one of Goodwin’s worst performances? You remember we finished 17th in 2019, right?

Sitting Oliver on the bench for 10 minutes after he started the game on fire, was pushing the play, and was benched twice during the game for longer periods than usual. Both times costing us momentum. Fremantle have no inside mid, and prior to coming off they had no answer for Oliver. Probably the worst move I’ve seen Goodwin make. Cost us the game. 

[Lord Nev 13,512]

10 minutes ago, KingDingAling said:

Sitting Oliver on the bench for 10 minutes after he started the game on fire, was pushing the play, and was benched twice during the game for longer periods than usual. Both times costing us momentum. Fremantle have no inside mid, and prior to coming off they had no answer for Oliver. Probably the worst move I’ve seen Goodwin make. Cost us the game. 

Oliver was on the ground at the start of the 3rd.

He attended 9 out of the 10 centre bounces in the 3rd quarter when we lost them 9-1.

He averages 85.7% game time this year. Against Freo it was 90%.

Edited May 30, 2022 by Lord Nev

[layzie 33,724]

A couple of days to process this and also time to grieve for Liverpool's defeat in the Champions League Final. Let’s get back to business.

Did Freo come up with the blueprint on how to beat Melbourne? I don’t believe so, they brought so much effort and work rate that they absolutely deserved this win but there were also a series of circumstances that allowed this to happen and to Justin Longmuir’s credit he pounced of them, great coaching.

I watched all the shows, I knew they were going to deep dive on this game and a story like this is like xmas day for footy analysts so I wanted to see what everyone had to say and graded their performances. First crack showed Freo bringing so much pressure and double or even triple teaming Melb ball carriers at centre clearances, although the footage was very well edited and impressive I could not help but think this would be tough to replicate and surprisingly David King agreed. Petracca banged up and Oliver being sat on by Aish allowed them to do this but on another day I can see Freo or another team for that matter bringing 2 or 3 to the ball carrier and us handballing over the top to the open man. Speaking of Aish, a brilliant job he did but Oliver still ended up with 36 possessions. Nullified him for sure and played his part in the big win but on more days than not a day like that from Clarry contributes to a Melb win.

I’m not trying to downplay Freo at all and what they did but I do believe sometimes when you’re down at half time in a game like that, you throw a few things into the mix that you wouldn’t usually do. I do wonder if Freo would have sacrificed in midfield had the game been level at half time. Sometimes it’s the unpredictable stuff that gets you, could Melbourne have done more to stem the bleeding? I’d have to watch again but it didn’t seem like we were prepared to match the running and defensive work rate of Freo once they got the head of steam up.

Individual brilliance from their small forwards Frederick and Shultz, if you’ve got some small forwards who can kick goals like these you’re in with a show. If there is one secret sauce it is moving the ball quick against us.

Injuries never an excuse but Ed Langdon’s ability to not only help with ball carrying attacks down his wing but his ability to track back almost like a sweeper when the backline pushes up. Missed it badly. Then there is May, losing him is equal to losing Virgil Van Dijk for Liverpool (apologies Soccer haters), the marshalling he does as the backline commander is underappreciated. A dozen times when there was a Freo kick to the point of the goal square you were just expecting that big fist but without him roles down back weren’t as defined.

I see this more as a pivot moment for us and the rest of the comp, a sliding doors moment if you will. Everyone takes stock and the road map changes slightly or dramatically, time will tell. Freo capitalised in the best possible fashion you could, they are an excellent unit and match up well on us, can’t wait for the return match at Optus that will be a ripper.

What does it mean for Melbourne? All things considered it is more likely to have a positive effect than negative. The winning streak to me was becoming a side show and frankly quite annoying. I said last week that I believed this team needed to lose as we were controlling games but also bringing a little too much Hollywood to the picture, honestly I don’t blame them. It’s hard to stay as motivated and hungry to improve when you are in this position, I’d even say it’s impossible to not get a little ahead of yourself. It also goes to show that no team is perfect and no team can run hard for 4 quarters, for 22 games a season. You do not need to be great for all of the season, you need to be great where it counts. I didn’t give a stuff about records, I care about what gives us the best chance for another shot at it all.

The magnifying glass will come out this week no doubt about it and these guys know what they need to do. Losing games is a part of following this sport and I know all of you will be confident we can get this back on track.

[robbiefrom13 887]

far too much analysis, I think.  We didn't have enough fit and healthy players, and once Freo saw that they went ballistic.  I wonder if they realise how lucky they were.  I'm sure we are well aware of how we were deprived of just too many of our key players, and next week will be very interesting if we are not still being torn down by the lurgi.

I did think that we might have stopped letting them have the loose-man possession rubbish, once we were being so badly outmarked in their forward line.  Unpressured kicks coming into the area made it easier for them than it might have been.  I appreciate how successful our defensive strategy has been, but when we don't have the man-power to stop their forwards marking it, our defensive teamwork hasn't got much chance to kick in.

But probably we were so decimated, nothing could have made much difference on the day.  Disappointing, but no grounds for criticising what is still the far-and-away best team in the competition.  I imagine as players return there will be a very clear restoration of the pecking order.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[von 1,559]

Lots of talk about effort and not having enough of it etc. 

we were essentially a backline of lever as the only tall in the third. So they took some marks and our structures on the ground were broken and they kicked a few easy ones too. That is purely system breakdown and no amount of effort fixes it. If that happens in a final we probably lose as well. 
 

we had a shocker in the middle in the third too. Once again when petracca has no run we are essentially a man down in there and they exposed us on the spread which doesn’t really happen to us these days and with a full compliment of inside and outside mids (mids, flanks, wings) we have the structure we want and we probably don’t see what happened in the third. 
 

it’s a domino effect that no one is immune to. Too many keys all disappeared at once this game. We are as equipped as anyone to deal with it because we have some depth but you lose too many key cogs and that’s what you get. Well done to freo but the media have been saying we are going at about 70 percent. That game we were genuinely going at 70 percent in the second half.