29 minutes ago, titan_uranus said:

 

Jackson's also struggling. If we're going to drop him it has to be for Weideman or Daw or someone who can ruck for significant periods of the game. We can't put TMac or Brown in the ruck and we can't go back to rucking Gawn for 95% of games.

Can I ask why?

Gawn and or Jackson forward isn’t adding anything to the forward line.

I think we were better earlier in the season with an extra medium sized forward.  Melksham or M Brown or Jones can fight it out for that role.
 

I actually feel like Max could run out a few games on his own, he has in the past.  Leave BBB or TMac to ruck forward and Max play one kick behind the play as intercepter, he is better suited to that role. I’m not saying for a whole season, but it couldn’t hurt to try it for a game or two.  For mine the Weid experiment is done for this year, and Daw no thanks.

5 minutes ago, Rossmillan said:

Can I ask why?

Gawn and or Jackson forward isn’t adding anything to the forward line.

I think we were better earlier in the season with an extra medium sized forward.  Melksham or M Brown or Jones can fight it out for that role.
 

I actually feel like Max could run out a few games on his own, he has in the past.  Leave BBB or TMac to ruck forward and Max play one kick behind the play as intercepter, he is better suited to that role. I’m not saying for a whole season, but it couldn’t hurt to try it for a game or two.  For mine the Weid experiment is done for this year, and Daw no thanks.

It's about the midfield. Someone has to ruck the contests when Gawn is on the bench, and in general play when we want to sit Gawn a kick behind the play we'll disrupt our forward structure if we have to send Brown or TMac up to the wings to contest throw ins.

Jackson allows us to be flexible with Gawn. I'm concerned if we drop him and don't bring in someone who can take those spare minutes in the ruck, we'll run Gawn into the ground and/or not get the benefit of Gawn sitting behind the play.

The Pig needs to become bacon. He fumbles and turns it over repeatedly. Harmes and ANB have become chronic non-contributors. Rivers also looks like he needs a rest. Bowey and Lockhart need a try.

4 minutes ago, titan_uranus said:

It's about the midfield. Someone has to ruck the contests when Gawn is on the bench, and in general play when we want to sit Gawn a kick behind the play we'll disrupt our forward structure if we have to send Brown or TMac up to the wings to contest throw ins.

Jackson allows us to be flexible with Gawn. I'm concerned if we drop him and don't bring in someone who can take those spare minutes in the ruck, we'll run Gawn into the ground and/or not get the benefit of Gawn sitting behind the play.

As evidenced more and more as the year goes on, we also need another ruck because we don't get as much value out of Gawn's hitouts as we should.

8 minutes ago, Lord Nev said:

As evidenced more and more as the year goes on, we also need another ruck because we don't get as much value out of Gawn's hitouts as we should.

I don't agree with you on your ongoing war against Gawn and his hit out stats, but also whoever we bring in if we drop Jackson is going to be worse in the ruck so they won't help this problem anyway.

Part of the issue with Gawn IMO is he was belting it out of stoppages repeatedly tonight, but it hardly ever appeared to be to our benefit. I don't know if that's a pre-meditated tactic or just something he thinks he can/should do to mix things up but I don't think it works for us.

14 minutes ago, titan_uranus said:

I don't agree with you on your ongoing war against Gawn and his hit out stats, but also whoever we bring in if we drop Jackson is going to be worse in the ruck so they won't help this problem anyway.

Part of the issue with Gawn IMO is he was belting it out of stoppages repeatedly tonight, but it hardly ever appeared to be to our benefit. I don't know if that's a pre-meditated tactic or just something he thinks he can/should do to mix things up but I don't think it works for us.

FWIW I'm not putting it all on Gawn. Equal parts blame between Gawn, the centre mids and the coaches. It's just all out of sync and not working.

27 minutes ago, chook fowler said:

The Pig needs to become bacon. He fumbles and turns it over repeatedly. Harmes and ANB have become chronic non-contributors. Rivers also looks like he needs a rest. Bowey and Lockhart need a try.

He's cooked, and has been since the bye.

No idea of the changes, but at least in the forward line we need more potency. OK, I get it with the pressure and all, but ANB and Spargo are just not turning that pressure into many goals. They just never feel dangerous. Was scary watching some of the Dogs' mid/small forwards, always felt like something could happen every time they got near it.

Perhaps time to give Melksham another run?

I'm also in the Weideman for Jackson camp.

It's not all doom and gloom.  We had more scoring shots (quite a few didnt even register), was severely disadvantaged by the umpiring (it's not just the free kicks, the inconsistency has players second guessing themselves), and was within 4 points near the end. Browns kicking will improve once he believes he has a place in the side .

Jackson needs a rest but I would replace him with a midsize player, maybe Bowey (moving Salem to the wing or Hibberd/Rivers forward) or Melksham. 

I like Spargo, but only one of him of ANB should be in the forwards at the same time as they just don't kick/set up enough goals. Therefore they are not dangerous, allowing opposition defence to focus there energy elsewhere. 

Viney can play the pressure role and does kick goals.

Our Mids get a lot of it around the ground, but not at the centre clearances which requires us to win the Defence to not only stop them from scoring  but to initiate our attack.  Attacking from deep in defence introduces more opportunity to turn the ball over and for the opposition to push back as we bring it out.

 

 

Out. Spargo

In. AVB

Daw in for Jackson (managed)

Jones for Spargo

Bowey for Hibberd

Melksham for either Harmes or perhaps ANB

Our forward line is still broken.

Not because bb is there. I believe he has been a welcome addition.

Tmac is in a slump but its not that.

Its Luk Jackson. He has plas yed 17 games and returned less than hslf a goal every game.

And for those who argue what he adds in ruck...when the desire tskes max up fwd to stand in lukes place gawnie kicks even less thsn jackson.

In effect bw the two of them they average less thsn a goal a game.

If the same applied to tmac ...fritta....bb...kozzie we would be kicking ten goals a week if lucky. Oh wait thats familiar now.

Goody seems blindsided tgat our fwd line is a fwd down and its stopping us from scoring.

 

19 minutes ago, leave it to deever said:

Our forward line is still broken.

Not because bb is there. I believe he has been a welcome addition.

Tmac is in a slump but its not that.

Its Luk Jackson. He has plas yed 17 games and returned less than hslf a goal every game.

And for those who argue what he adds in ruck...when the desire tskes max up fwd to stand in lukes place gawnie kicks even less thsn jackson.

In effect bw the two of them they average less thsn a goal a game.

If the same applied to tmac ...fritta....bb...kozzie we would be kicking ten goals a week if lucky. Oh wait thats familiar now.

Goody seems blindsided tgat our fwd line is a fwd down and its stopping us from scoring.

 

Why was TMAC rucking so much in the forwardline if we have Jackson.. he seemed to be on the bench when Gawn was rucking. Would have though those guys swap duties.

Out

Jackson- replaced by Melksham 

Jordan- replaced by Sparrow

Spargo- Bedford 

ANB- Bowey

 

Need to move Rivers to another spot perhaps to a HFF, Bowey to replace his spot

With Jacksons involvement in the game dropping right off the past few weeks probably needs to be dropped but if you replace him with Weideman it's just another player who lacks involvement, Might as well give Daw a try to see what he's got.

Out: Jackson (rest)     In: Melksham

Out: Harmes.                In: VDB

Out: Jordan (rest)        In: Sparrow

Melksham helps the forward structure and inside 50 efficiency from ball use and goal kicking.

Sparrow for Jordan, like for like but really just giving Jordan a rest.

Harmes just seems out of sorts, VDB to add some mongrel. Demons a little passive, not flying flag last night.

Getting hard to predict changes with the way the VFL is at the moment. They showed our bench during the telecast and it looked like an underage party at times. Rivers, Jackson, Spargo and Jordon spent significant time on there. As good as Jordon has been he looked really sluggish last night. 

Captain Sub Sparrow is probably the most likely to return maybe for Jordon. Melksham would be a handy addition if only they use him in his preferred position, in his last game against the Lions he had 1 kick and it came in the last 4 minutes of the game.

A young guy at our work plays for Werribee in the VFL and if he’s [censored] off at the current VFL set-up and lack of games imagine how our boys trying to get in our team are feeling.

2 hours ago, Ungarieboy said:

I like Spargo, but only one of him of ANB should be in the forwards at the same time as they just don't kick/set up enough goals. Therefore they are not dangerous, allowing opposition defence to focus there energy elsewhere. 

This.

Jackson comes out, Harmes to join him.

Melksham comes in and im not sure if we stick with 3 talls or bring in a small forward.  Bring in Bedford or Weiderman depending on our set up.  I think Fitsch is such a defensive liability up forward we can't play 3 talls, as our talls don't offer a lot once it hits the ground.

Would also like to see Bowey, the list is pretty long on players out of form but expect Rivers or Hibberd to make way for him.

in - straight kicking for goal please

We need to freshen up and may tinker with structure but sudden changes in role of key players wont happen. We lack run (1 of top 7 in metres gained last night) and polish at present. Some of the players the season has got too long for them to impact as they were and we have an imbalance of grunt vs polish. We wont make this many changes even if it is to freshen but I would like to see these considered over the coming weeks. 

Out: Jackson, Harmes, Jordon, Spargo, Rivers/Hibberd

In: Weid, Melksham/Jones, Declase, Bedford, Bowey

7 minutes ago, big_red_fire_engine said:

We need to freshen up and may tinker with structure but sudden changes in role of key players wont happen. We lack run (1 of top 7 in metres gained last night) and polish at present. Some of the players the season has got too long for them to impact as they were and we have an imbalance of grunt vs polish. We wont make this many changes even if it is to freshen but I would like to see these considered over the coming weeks. 

Out: Jackson, Harmes, Jordon, Spargo, Rivers/Hibberd

In: Weid, Melksham/Jones, Declase, Bedford, Bowey

Good precis

I don’t follow the VFL - do Declase and Bowey offer run and polish?

I mentioned last week Melksham and his targeting inside 50 would help - kicking polish. 
jones for composure

Just asking - is Mitch Brown fit?

Has always filled in very admirably - could he give Jackson a rest?

Jackson, Rivers and JJ all have really great futures, but all are looking rather knackered at present.   

9 hours ago, chook fowler said:

The Pig needs to become bacon. He fumbles and turns it over repeatedly. Harmes and ANB have become chronic non-contributors. Rivers also looks like he needs a rest. Bowey and Lockhart need a try.

I agree Pig needs a rest, he does fumble when he is in the clear a lot. There was an example late in the last quarter near boundary in the forward pocket when had he picked it up we were away instead he fumbled it over the boundary. 

22 minutes ago, big_red_fire_engine said:

We need to freshen up and may tinker with structure but sudden changes in role of key players wont happen. We lack run (1 of top 7 in metres gained last night) and polish at present. Some of the players the season has got too long for them to impact as they were and we have an imbalance of grunt vs polish. We wont make this many changes even if it is to freshen but I would like to see these considered over the coming weeks. 

Out: Jackson, Harmes, Jordon, Spargo, Rivers/Hibberd

In: Weid, Melksham/Jones, Declase, Bedford, Bowey

Not sure about Bedford, yes he's quick but doesn't do much at all.