What is the solution to this problem?

[CHF 2,743]

We have three players in the AA squad; Gawn, Petracca and Oliver who would be the min three of the four at center bounces and at stoppages and yet we are ranked 15th for clearances. Ranked 12th at center bounces and 16th at stoppages. How can this be so when we have max in the center and we are ranked 3rd for hit outs?

Whoever is in charge of Midfield coaching is either not doing his job, the players are not doing what they are coached to do or we are just too damn predictable.

Each game this season I was so annoyed that we we not doing better with clearances.

How do we fix it?

 

[buck_nekkid 5,879]

2 minutes ago, CHF said:

We have three players in the AA squad; Gawn, Petracca and Oliver who would be the min three of the four at center bounces and at stoppages and yet we are ranked 15th for clearances. Ranked 12th at center bounces and 16th at stoppages. How can this be so when we have max in the center and we are ranked 3rd for hit outs?

Whoever is in charge of Midfield coaching is either not doing his job, the players are not doing what they are coached to do or we are just too damn predictable.

Each game this season I was so annoyed that we we not doing better with clearances.

How do we fix it?

 

New midfield coach, additional midfield clearance strategies, additional silk rotating through the middle

[tiers 2,840]

More running power. Except for Oliver's run and Tracca's strength we get strangled whenever Viney, Melksham or AVB go in the middle. Brayshaw when played in the middle adds run but he is left on the outside too often. Note also that we get throttled at ball ups and boundary throw ins unless Maxie gets a clean hit to advantage and the oppos don't rove to him - not often. For his control of the ruck contests we get little return. - it seems that there is no plan or cohesion between Maxie and the little fellas.

It's demoralising how often we get beaten at crowded contests. Too many dees attack the ball and allow the oppos to own the outside perimeter that gives them a clear passage away from the pack. Even when winning we seem to chase all day.

It's own occasional good fortune that we have so many players who can convert something from nothing eg. ANB dodging the pack and running free to goal. Hunt whenever he gets free to run.

Lucky we have another six months to correct our deficiencies, if we can. Like our forward entries this has been an obvious failing for years but apparently there is no solution. Better coaching and planning would not hurt.

Edited September 22, 2020 by tiers
Spelling.

[DeeSpencer 25,723]

Does any have a breakdown of the stats?

AFL tables isn't updated yet for round 18 but we had 458 clearances for and 436 clearances against.

If we're winning more than we concede then we really can't be 15th.

We also had 684 inside 50's whilst conceding 641. Not a huge difference, but I'd imagine it's much harder to win a clearance in your own forward line when you're trying to kick a goal than it is to win a clearance in your backline where the aim is to just get it and hoof it clear.

[DubDee 25,915]

The solution to vague click bait thread titles?

tough one...

[Lord Nev 13,512]

1 minute ago, DeeSpencer said:

Does any have a breakdown of the stats?

AFL tables isn't updated yet for round 18 but we had 458 clearances for and 436 clearances against.

If we're winning more than we concede then we really can't be 15th.

We also had 684 inside 50's whilst conceding 641. Not a huge difference, but I'd imagine it's much harder to win a clearance in your own forward line when you're trying to kick a goal than it is to win a clearance in your backline where the aim is to just get it and hoof it clear.

https://www.footywire.com/afl/footy/th-melbourne-demons

15th for clearances per game, BUT weirdly ranked 1st for least opponent clearances per game.

Maybe it's partly about game style? As in, our games don't feature a lot of stoppages?

Personally, I'm more worried about being 18th for tackles and 17th for giving up uncontested possessions.

[TeamPlayedFine39 8,508]

Would be curious to see the breakdown of games where Gawn did/didn’t play.  He missed 3 matches and could barely move in another.

 

[DeeSpencer 25,723]

Otherwise:

Centre square:
1. Gawn: is not always a great centre square ruck. Doesn't jump - especially when coming back from a PCL, so often hits to one area of the clockface. Battles as well as he can to follow up but it's hard for him to chase guys far younger and quicker. Jackson hopefully starts to see some centre square time next year, he can be a real weapon in there.

2. Individually: the mids all have some issues. Brayshaw can't defend. Petracca isn't great at it either. Viney battles to give off creative handballs to free runners. And Oliver. Oliver gets sat on and then gives hot potato handballs unless he's going backwards or at best sideways, his lack of left foot or confidence in his right means he's nowhere near the centre bounce player he should be. Doesn't get any help from the umps for holding either.

3. Balance: The issues above compound each other. Brayshaw's the best link player of our mids - dishing or receiving handballs, but Goodwin doesn't trust him to defend. Viney had a period of not trusting his kicking like Oliver. All 3 of Viney, Petracca and Clarry both love diving in at the ball leaving no one to get the handball.

Around the ground:
1. Team work and structure. We're often lazy to set up or not on the same page as Max.

2. Poor quality half back flankers/half forward flankers/wingers. Salem and Rivers off half back are handy stoppage players, and Vanders sure has his moments on a wing. Otherwise Langdon isn't and our half forwards are often poor unless it's Tracc playing forward and rolling up to the stoppage.

[deanox 9,940]

1 minute ago, Lord Nev said:

https://www.footywire.com/afl/footy/th-melbourne-demons

15th for clearances per game, BUT weirdly ranked 1st for least opponent clearances per game.

Maybe it's partly about game style? As in, our games don't feature a lot of stoppages?

Personally, I'm more worried about being 18th for tackles and 17th for giving up uncontested possessions.

Absolutely game style this year. 

There was great discussion (on here perhaps, @A F?) about us playing the wrong style for our strengths. 

Instead of moving the ball forward the locking it up for a stoppage, we were trying to finesse and over possess. We arent as strong with disposal skills as we are at stoppages, and thus we had lots of turnovers. 

Id love to see UP differential, tackle differential and turn over differential. 

[Earl Hood 6,086]

18 minutes ago, buck_nekkid said:

New midfield coach, additional midfield clearance strategies, additional silk rotating through the middle

 

5 minutes ago, tiers said:

More running power. Except for Oliver's run and Tracca's strength we get strangled whenever Viney, Melksham or AVB go in the middle. Brayshaw when played in the middle adds run but he is left on the outside too often. Note also that we get throttled at ball ups and boundary throw ins unless Maxie gets a clean hit to advantage and the oppos don't rove to him - not often. For his control of the ruck contests we get little return. - it seems that there is no plan or cohesion between Maxie and the little fellas.

It's demoralising how often we get beaten at crowded contests. Too many dees attack the ball and allow the oppos to own the outside perimeter that gives them a clear passage away from the pack. Even when winning we seem to chase all day.

It's own occasional good fortune that we have so many players who can convert something from nothing eg. ANB dodging the pack and running free to goal. Hunt whenever he gets free to run.

Lucky we have another six months to correct our deficiencies, if we can. Like our forward entries this has been an obvious failing for years but apparently there is no solution. Better coaching and planning would not hurt.

And a lot of that gets back to coaching and developing strategies and techniques to maximise our strengths. I go to training frequently pre Covid and the rucks and mids are always practicing set plays at ball ups, throw ins etc. It often looked more complex and nuanced than what you see game day. In general at training the game simulations don’t often resemble what we do game day. I really think we have issues with how we coach. 

[drdrake 3,178]

I think biggest problem and have posted this in the past we play as individuals and don't seem to know where Max is intending to hit the ball and how to work for each other to create space.  It is max hits ball and all mids chase ball.

The other point we rarely play with a sweeper at centre bounces.  We leave that space for max to tap to, issue is our opposition know this and shark it with no mfc player between them and chf

 

[adonski 12,216]

Oliver & Trac, #1 & #2 in contested possessions in the comp, we win it, but simply have no one to give it to?

[CHF 2,743]

1 minute ago, drdrake said:

I think biggest problem and have posted this in the past we play as individuals and don't seem to know where Max is intending to hit the ball and how to work for each other to create space.  It is max hits ball and all mids chase ball.

The other point we rarely play with a sweeper at centre bounces.  We leave that space for max to tap to, issue is our opposition know this and shark it with no mfc player between them and chf

 

What I have a problem understanding is that if the opposition can work out how to rove to max, why can't we work it out?

To me, this really is a major weakness.

[SFebes 4,884]

One thing that annoys me is every time we have a kick out from a behind we go to max every single time. Has to be part of the gameplan but so ridiculously predictable 

[Lord Nev 13,512]

13 minutes ago, deanox said:

Absolutely game style this year. 

There was great discussion (on here perhaps, @A F?) about us playing the wrong style for our strengths. 

Instead of moving the ball forward the locking it up for a stoppage, we were trying to finesse and over possess. We arent as strong with disposal skills as we are at stoppages, and thus we had lots of turnovers. 

Id love to see UP differential, tackle differential and turn over differential. 

15th for uncontested possession differential.

12th for tackles inside 50 differential.

18th for least opponent turnovers.

Couldn't find a tackle differential ranking, but we're 18th for tackles and 9th for opponent tackles.

All paints a picture of a team that isn't applying much pressure.

 

Edited September 22, 2020 by Lord Nev

[drdrake 3,178]

5 minutes ago, Lord Nev said:

15th for uncontested possession differential.

12th for tackles inside 50 differential.

18th for least opponent turnovers.

Couldn't find a tackle differential ranking, but we're 18th for tackles and 9th for opponent tackles.

All paints a picture of a team that isn't applying much pressure.

 

We play like u9s all our players go to the contest and want the ball.  Handball handball turnover no one one the outside to break the line or stop the easy take away from the contest.

The point kick ins are frustrating again our opponents know its going there and get numbers at the feet, we should know its going there but we are regularly outnumbered once it hits the ground.

All our players won't the ball and don't do the 1%ers to help each other

[Little Goffy 14,581]

A: 

Part one:  Who are the best midfield stoppage coaches in the AFL system?

Part two:  What does it take to get them to MFC?

[titan_uranus 25,020]

As the OP said, we're 15th for clearances.

But we're 7th for average clearance differential (at +1.4). So we're top 8 for having more clearances than our opponents despite being bottom 4 for total clearances.

I think that must say we play a low stoppage game. So our raw numbers are low but we still win more than our opponents.

We're also 9th for inside 50 differential at +2.2. Port lead at +10, then it's Richmond, Brisbane, Collingwood, Geelong, the Dogs, St Kilda s and Carlton. So the top 8 for inside 50 differential this year has seven finalists and Carlton. Then us. West Coast, the missing finalist, is 10th.

Goodwin always talks about it being a forward half game. That inside 50 stat lends support to that theory. 

[Pates 9,660]

Early in the year we were killing teams in the centre bounces and around the ground stoppages. Somewhere along the line (I think the Brisbane game) teams worked us out, and I think a lot of it was so to with almost allowing us first hands on the ball but ensuring there was no way to exit. The pounded us with pressure and got it to the outside where they had the better players ready to take the ball away. When Max got injured but still played against Adelaide I said leading up to it that that was the perfect opportunity to put it back on our midfielders to learn how to scrap for the ball. He played, we won the game but he got injured. I was filthy at that call because it was a great opportunity missed.

We need to have multiple different approaches rather than just the basic tap down because teams are too wise to it. We are losing in one area of the ground we should be killing teams.

[Graeme Yeats' Mullet 6,778]

1 hour ago, tiers said:

Too many dees attack the ball and allow the oppos to own the outside perimeter that gives them a clear passage away from the pack

Spot on 

One fumble and the opposition has opportunity to clear away with a quick tap or handball, and we've proved fumbling is a core skill of ours

[Lord Nev 13,512]

@deanox found it! We're 17th for tackle differential.

Can't find a stoppage per game number anywhere there, which would be interesting in the context of what you brought up.

[Elegt 872]

4 hours ago, CHF said:

We have three players in the AA squad; Gawn, Petracca and Oliver who would be the min three of the four at center bounces and at stoppages and yet we are ranked 15th for clearances. Ranked 12th at center bounces and 16th at stoppages. How can this be so when we have max in the center and we are ranked 3rd for hit outs?

Whoever is in charge of Midfield coaching is either not doing his job, the players are not doing what they are coached to do or we are just too damn predictable.

Each game this season I was so annoyed that we we not doing better with clearances.

How do we fix it?

 

Justin plapp. Fire him

[Cheesy D. Pun 1,765]

Richmond were 16th in clearance differential last season and won the flag.

Our mids are capable of winning clearance every week but there's no point simply winning the clearance. It has to be a quality exit/entry.

With a backline that includes May and Lever, we can be better off with the opposition winning a pressured clearance than us winning the pressured clearance.

What would be more telling would be to see how many clean take aways we had compared to the opposition. I'm fairly certain it's not a stat but it would provide a better marker for stoppage performance.

[Gawndy the Great 9,011]

4 hours ago, Lord Nev said:

https://www.footywire.com/afl/footy/th-melbourne-demons

15th for clearances per game, BUT weirdly ranked 1st for least opponent clearances per game.

Maybe it's partly about game style? As in, our games don't feature a lot of stoppages?

Personally, I'm more worried about being 18th for tackles and 17th for giving up uncontested possessions.

Funny isn’t that what Goodwin said our brand was supposed to be.

[Adam The God 30,275]

6 hours ago, tiers said:

More running power. Except for Oliver's run and Tracca's strength we get strangled whenever Viney, Melksham or AVB go in the middle. Brayshaw when played in the middle adds run but he is left on the outside too often. Note also that we get throttled at ball ups and boundary throw ins unless Maxie gets a clean hit to advantage and the oppos don't rove to him - not often. For his control of the ruck contests we get little return. - it seems that there is no plan or cohesion between Maxie and the little fellas.

It's demoralising how often we get beaten at crowded contests. Too many dees attack the ball and allow the oppos to own the outside perimeter that gives them a clear passage away from the pack. Even when winning we seem to chase all day.

It's own occasional good fortune that we have so many players who can convert something from nothing eg. ANB dodging the pack and running free to goal. Hunt whenever he gets free to run.

Lucky we have another six months to correct our deficiencies, if we can. Like our forward entries this has been an obvious failing for years but apparently there is no solution. Better coaching and planning would not hurt.

This is a furphy. How does running power help you win a centre clearance? Explosiveness might, but not running power.

IMV, it's a stoppage set ups issue. Oliver is the best in the league at winning clearances, particularly around the ground clearances. But we don't do enough at centre stoppage set ups. We're not inventive enough. Take a look at some of the more unconventional stuff Geelong and Richmond have been trying. By comparison, we've become really predictable and static at these stoppage situations. Oliver has a rare blend of explosiveness from a standing start that enables him to win clearance, he's a freak, but the rest of the team are often too flat footed with these set ups.

If there's anyone we absolutely need to target it's a good midfield / stoppages coach.

I think Matthews has been reasonable over the journey, but I think it's time for a fresh pair of eyes.

In 2021, I think we need to remember:

1) to play a stopper at every stoppage, whether that be Harmes or Viney. It needs to happen.

2) Viney should never be first possession mid if we can help it. So play him defensively or in the forwardline or off the back of stoppage. At least bursting off the back of stoppage could be predictable to his team mates.

3) we have a nasty habit of using Gawn to tap at his feet. Naturally, we don't do this all the time, but we get no separation in our set ups from centre bounces, because I think we're fearful we'll get done on the outside. But this works both ways though. If we force the opposition to man us wider of the contest, not only can Max get more creative with his tap work, but our mids can hit the drop of the ball at speed, instead of taking the ball as it's dropped on their heads and then being tackled straight away. Separation in the midfield is just as important as separation for a leading forward IMO. We should be looking for ways to maximise this separation.

6 hours ago, deanox said:

Absolutely game style this year. 

There was great discussion (on here perhaps, @A F?) about us playing the wrong style for our strengths. 

Instead of moving the ball forward the locking it up for a stoppage, we were trying to finesse and over possess. We arent as strong with disposal skills as we are at stoppages, and thus we had lots of turnovers. 

Id love to see UP differential, tackle differential and turn over differential. 

I'm not sure if it was me mate, but I think there was some discussion the other day that we've potentially gone far too control orientated and tried to slow down the game, when our players are perhaps better suited to the faster contest, getting it forward and playing territory. 

I don't necessarily agree with this, because I think teams will try to slow us down and we've got to be able to move between different modes of play and speeds. Transitioning from attack, to defence and back again to attack etc is an art and the formation of this is what I thought we'd witnessed in both the Collingwood and St Kilda games, albeit the ball use entering 50 versus St Kilda was shocking. Had we used it better that game, I think we would have won more easily, however I think this comes with time. We seemed to completely abandon this system for the last 4 rounds. 

It's this system that is very Geelong, which was to often lose centre clearance, but win the around the ground clearances. Oliver led the way here, but Petracca also won a stack of contested possessions and finished just behind Oliver there. Viney also won a bunch of CPs too.

However, I think with a dominant ruckman like Max and dominant contested mids, we should be looking to attack from stoppage far more. It feels to me like we've conceded our biggest weapon because the better teams haven't allowed us to play ultra attacking and slowed us down. 

When we played aggressive 18 man territory press in 2017-2018, we actually dominated the likes of Richmond for large periods of games, but our old foe, forward 50 efficiency, let us down. I wonder if it's merely a few tweaks to the 2020 system (3 wall press), plus more attacking stoppage set ups and more balanced personnel as described above?