On 08/10/2020 at 06:13, JimmyGadson said:

With all due respect, you have no idea.

None of it is hyperbole.

"The basic point was that it's clear we haven't handled our cap the way we should have. The evidence is everywhere."

You then proceeded to base this on... Tom McDonald? Ridiculous.

  Quote

There is a reason the club has had consecutive entire football department reviews after making a prelim.

If we are not a serious player this off-season and if we do not address some serious areas of weakness, we are in major trouble and watch as teams like Carlton waltz right past us AGAIN whilst we fall away to irrelevancy.

Again, that's not what I'm debating you on. I agree and have already said "If this is aimed at me, I agree. We need to be successful and at the very least, that means playing finals regularly, otherwise we'll shed important players and go backwards."

What I'm taking issue with is your hyperbole, such as there's evidence everywhere that we've mishandled our cap. It's a ridiculous statement and you should be called out for it.

Edited October 8, 20204 yr by A F

  On 08/10/2020 at 06:01, A F said:

Again, Tomlinson... not a bad signing. 

Pretty bad signing. We wouldn't be chasing a 32 year old Isaac Smith if Tomlinson could actually play on the wing. 

We might find use for him as an oversized half back flanker but we haven't fixed the role he was bought in for and there's a lot cheaper ways to find half decent slow mid sized back flankers ie. Marty Hore.

  On 08/10/2020 at 07:13, DeeSpencer said:

Pretty bad signing. We wouldn't be chasing a 32 year old Isaac Smith if Tomlinson could actually play on the wing. 

We might find use for him as an oversized half back flanker but we haven't fixed the role he was bought in for and there's a lot cheaper ways to find half decent slow mid sized back flankers ie. Marty Hore.

I mean sure he didn't pan out in the most required role but that doesn't mean he was overall unequivocally a bad signing. He's a 194cm utility player who is a decent kick, mark and covers the ground well with a big tank. I doubt he was ever going to be used solely on a wing with his size a key attribute across the ground. While he didn't amaze or anything I think he produced relatively well as a third tall option down back, a role I hope he is able to really hold down next year as a best 22.

  On 08/10/2020 at 07:26, Yung Blood said:

I mean sure he didn't pan out in the most required role but that doesn't mean he was overall unequivocally a bad signing. He's a 194cm utility player who is a decent kick, mark and covers the ground well with a big tank. I doubt he was ever going to be used solely on a wing with his size a key attribute across the ground. While he didn't amaze or anything I think he produced relatively well as a third tall option down back, a role I hope he is able to really hold down next year as a best 22.

Some of the best signings have been happy accidents. See "Jack Gunston role" Jeremy Howe.

But he can't mark and can't turn, so to me he'll always be fringe 22 and there were plenty of cheaper ways to find that.

Almost the bigger concern I have with it is that anyone who watched any of the finals last year could tell he wasn't up to the pace of the game on the wing. The Giants knew that, hence they dropped him for a desperate late dice roll with Deledio for their first final. 

There's a lot of teams out there looking for wingmen, it's really hard to find the right combination of speed, endurance, football smarts and skills. But we seem to be worse at it than almost anyone. The best case for Isaac Smith is that at least he's done it before. 

  On 08/10/2020 at 07:26, Yung Blood said:

I mean sure he didn't pan out in the most required role but that doesn't mean he was overall unequivocally a bad signing. He's a 194cm utility player who is a decent kick, mark and covers the ground well with a big tank. I doubt he was ever going to be used solely on a wing with his size a key attribute across the ground. While he didn't amaze or anything I think he produced relatively well as a third tall option down back, a role I hope he is able to really hold down next year as a best 22.

Sounds like a big body that could go through the middle?

Edited October 8, 20204 yr by defuture15

@JimmyGadson's raised some interesting issues, most of which I don't agree with.

I don't think OMac or TMac are wildly inconsistent. They're very consistent IMO. OMac's consistently poor. Until his injury mid-last year TMac's consistently been athletic and a bad kick other than for goal. When we put him forward, it clicked for two years. 

Going after Lever post-2017 and May post-2018 were both smart and correct decisions. if we paid a lot for them, we had to. Funnily enough, Jimmy complains about spending up on May/Lever but then complains about us not getting Saad/Wilson, who will cost a fortune. We have to spend money to bring in quality players from other clubs. It's not always our fault that they choose to go somewhere else. Jimmy speaks as if a player picking another club is a necessary consequence of us stuffing something up. It most certainly is not.

We've targeted our "specialist small forward" need by bringing in Pickett, a "specialist small forward".

Also, Jimmy argues every year is a wasted year, but then offers Carlton as the example of a club who is attracting players and is apparently going to "waltz right past us". Despite being the club who outside of Gold Coast is on the longest streak of not playing finals.

But none of this is to say our list management has been great, or even good. We still have too many half-forwards who don't offer anything of particular note on any consistent basis (I'm talking Melksham, Hannan, ANB, Hunt, vandenBerg - chuck Spargo and Bedford in too if you want). We still are forced to play Salem in the backline because most of our other options for half-backs are bad kicks or just aren't very good. We can't work out how to play all of Petracca, Oliver, Viney, Brayshaw and Harmes in the same side. And we still haven't really worked on our midfield balance: at times this year playing those five midfielders along with Jones and Sparrow. 

  On 08/10/2020 at 10:58, titan_uranus said:

Lever post-2017 and May post-2018 were both smart and correct decisions. if we paid a lot for them, we had to. Funnily enough, Jimmy complains about spending up on May/Lever but then complains about us not getting Saad/Wilson, who will cost a fortune. We have to spend money to bring in quality players from other clubs. It's not always our fault that they choose to go somewhere else. Jimmy speaks as if a player picking another club is a necessary consequence of us stuffing something up. It most certainly is not.

@JimmyGadson - this one makes me smile a little, as you banged on for years about how poor our back line was and how we needed to recruit quality to improve it.

So, we do it, and you're still not happy.  It's a no win situation with you, Steve.

With Ooze now aboard, i wonder if this will have an impact on Smith and he might now consider it more because he will know Adem is there.. or will Adem have a say in this, he will know what his body is like... 

  On 08/10/2020 at 22:51, Demon3 said:

With Ooze now aboard, i wonder if this will have an impact on Smith and he might now consider it more because he will know Adem is there.. or will Adem have a say in this, he will know what his body is like... 

It certainly helps.

Smith's best mate co business partner in James Frawley is now gone also. This could all lead to a fresh start for Smith.

  On 08/10/2020 at 23:30, dazzledavey36 said:

It certainly helps.

Smith's best mate co business partner in James Frawley is now gone also. This could all lead to a fresh start for Smith.

Good call DD. I know there is some reluctance about Smith, but i think good players can only help us, and he is a good player. We dont need him to be a contested hard at it footballer. We just need him to spread the field and run and kick. Polec's age is obviously better, but Smith seems like a great fella, from a great club with attributes we need. If sound medically and relatively cheaply, then im in for getting him in red and blue.

No, no and no. He’s not the player we need. 

  On 08/10/2020 at 11:13, Wiseblood said:

@JimmyGadson - this one makes me smile a little, as you banged on for years about how poor our back line was and how we needed to recruit quality to improve it.

So, we do it, and you're still not happy.  It's a no win situation with you, Steve.

 

No, if we'd handled our recruitment and list development better, it'd be a win. But we didn't.

I was banging on about how we'd be going nowhere with Oscar as our number 1 key defender well before we brought in Lever let alone May. I was howled down constantly by the same supporters who think every Melbourne player will magically make the grade one day. And those including @binmanwho refuse to see glaringly obvious weaknesses in a players game.

Why it's taken this long for the club to realise Oscar in not the answer is one of the great mysteries of life itself.

I suggested numerous times over that period that there were cheap options who could fill the key defender role for us and provide us with far more stability than what Frost and Oscar were providing. Collins for example, who has since made his way to Gold Coast for chips was one player I suggested we target before loading up on May. 

Goodwin has no [censored] idea. He has no idea how to develop a system that enables individuals to play to their strengths. Lever is the perfect example. How on earth was he expected to play the way did at Adelaide when he had Frost and Oscar as support? We waited far too long to recruit a big bodied defender. Yeh, we have an amazing one now, but look at every else that needs addressing?

We waited until last year to get a quality small pressure forward in Pickett. Why? Butler was there a year earlier.

We play Brayshaw on a wing for three years. Dom Tyson. Nathan Jones. Alex Neal Bullen kicks around on a forward flank year after year doing diddly squat. 

It's enough.

The difference between me and many supporters on here is that I now have little patience with the club and it's handlings of these types of things. I understand that may differ from you as you are one of the happy-go-luckies who isn't too fussed either way, as long as we're 'trying'. 

There's something wrong with the club. Look at Brisbane for [censored] sake. 

They're now miles ahead of us due to smart and considered decisions across all lines of their club, year upon year since Fagen took over. 

We are supposed to be ahead of these sides. People need to wake up.

Goodwin has made a mess and has one off-season to fix it.

Hawks are in the market for another Key Defender with Frawley retiring, i think this presents an opportunity to potentially float one of the McDonalds as an option for them. 

the recruitment of Frawley and Frost shows they don't mind turnover merchants in their D50 

  On 08/10/2020 at 07:13, DeeSpencer said:

Pretty bad signing. We wouldn't be chasing a 32 year old Isaac Smith if Tomlinson could actually play on the wing. 

We might find use for him as an oversized half back flanker but we haven't fixed the role he was bought in for and there's a lot cheaper ways to find half decent slow mid sized back flankers ie. Marty Hore.

True but it's better than paying Brad Hill $900k/year

  On 30/09/2020 at 10:40, Rednblueriseing said:

We should go hard for Ben Brown and Polac, both have 3/4 years good footy left in them. How can the club tell us they want to build a team to make multiple finals and win one, then bring in a 32 year old(Smith,) for a season. Looks like we are getting desperate 

We have a good squad allready. 

WE NEED SOME PEOPLE WHO KNOW HOW TO WIN!

Smith and Yze could be a good combination.

i'd take Smith in a player/coaching role. i would prefer that rather than us offering the same deal to Jones.

  On 09/10/2020 at 06:52, JimmyGadson said:

 

No, if we'd handled our recruitment and list development better, it'd be a win. But we didn't.

I was banging on about how we'd be going nowhere with Oscar as our number 1 key defender well before we brought in Lever let alone May. I was howled down constantly by the same supporters who think every Melbourne player will magically make the grade one day. And those including @binmanwho refuse to see glaringly obvious weaknesses in a players game.

Why it's taken this long for the club to realise Oscar in not the answer is one of the great mysteries of life itself.

I suggested numerous times over that period that there were cheap options who could fill the key defender role for us and provide us with far more stability than what Frost and Oscar were providing. Collins for example, who has since made his way to Gold Coast for chips was one player I suggested we target before loading up on May. 

Goodwin has no [censored] idea. He has no idea how to develop a system that enables individuals to play to their strengths. Lever is the perfect example. How on earth was he expected to play the way did at Adelaide when he had Frost and Oscar as support? We waited far too long to recruit a big bodied defender. Yeh, we have an amazing one now, but look at every else that needs addressing?

We waited until last year to get a quality small pressure forward in Pickett. Why? Butler was there a year earlier.

We play Brayshaw on a wing for three years. Dom Tyson. Nathan Jones. Alex Neal Bullen kicks around on a forward flank year after year doing diddly squat. 

It's enough.

The difference between me and many supporters on here is that I now have little patience with the club and it's handlings of these types of things. I understand that may differ from you as you are one of the happy-go-luckies who isn't too fussed either way, as long as we're 'trying'. 

There's something wrong with the club. Look at Brisbane for [censored] sake. 

They're now miles ahead of us due to smart and considered decisions across all lines of their club, year upon year since Fagen took over. 

We are supposed to be ahead of these sides. People need to wake up.

Goodwin has made a mess and has one off-season to fix it.

 

OMac was developed as a zone defender: read the play, hit the contest. Not as a lockdown one-on-one defender.  And in this role he is not bad.  Lever is also a zone defender. Both were recruited pre 666 when we were playing a full zone defence. So you comments about replacing OMac with a different key defender wasn't going to happen. And Lever wasn't meant to play as a 3rd tall, he was meant to be part of a zone defence. 

We trialled 20+ players on a wing trying to make them work, it didnt so we went out and bought two options, one who finished top 4 in our bnf, the other plays 13 games, even if not all on the wing.

We have tried small forwards for years: Garlett, JKH, Johnstone, Spargo, ANB, Bedford. Dan Butler was traded in the same trade period we got Pickett, so wasnt there a year earlier. Which othet successful small forwards have been on the market? Apparently Papely was available but Im not sure what you'd say about two first round picks for him.

 

How many players do you think we can replace in one year?

Jungle drums are beating. Smith might be tempted like Lewis, Hodge and Birchall to get a final 2 years elsewhere.  He’s a chance !! 

Dees' three-year dilemma: Is a premiership Hawk the missing piece?

Three years is excessive IMO. 
Probably should be on a year by year arrangement.

  On 11/10/2020 at 22:45, Dockett 32 said:

Three years is excessive IMO. 
Probably should be on a year by year arrangement.

True, but he won't shift for a year by year.  This is the eternal challenge in getting players to shift clubs 

 

Has to be a 2 year deal with a trigger clause for a third in my mind.

 

He’d be a good get but 3 years for a 32 year old is madness particularly one who relies on speed. 2 years max with perhaps a sweetner about a coaching position.

3 years is over the top but probably required to get him here. I assume the 3rd year would be on less coin either way.