With O Mac reminding us what a CHB who plays his man can do, allowing Lever to play loose and TAKE intercepting marks, where does Joel Smith now fit in?

Back up for Lever (I dont think he reads it well enough), or up forward (I dont think he kicks it well enough)?

More suited up forward IMO

He does not have the footy instincts his Dad had and he was an average, good, albiet spectacular player going at a goal and a bit a game. The work required to make him a good player is a bit of a gamble. Happy to be wrong though.

We've been spoiled with a number of high quality kids coming in to the team over the last few years that we've forgotten that developing a player isn't linear and takes time.

This magical idea of Smith being the root cause of Lever's problems has hidden the truth which was Smith actually played pretty well. Did a number of excellent things overshadowed by a couple of silly mistakes against Carlton, was very solid against Geelong and a couple of errors again obstructed what was an ok game against Richmond.

I was wrong about Oscar coming back, but on a small sample size the reality might be that Oscar might just be a lot better that he was last year and it wasn't so much about dropping Smith as giving Oscar a well deserved go.

Smith can struggle reading a man and the ball at the same time on a leading player, but from what I've seen his instincts on how to close space are very good. His marking should come on, his kicking looks far better and he can really run and pressure at ground level. So I'd be thinking really hard about getting him back in the side as a defensive half back flanker with some intercept game, shifting Hibberd in to Jetta's deeper role. Smith across half back could free Lever, Salem and Lockhart (or other attacking half back ie. Rivers etc) up more. 

I've been pretty vocal in my disappointment with him this season. He's a good athlete, but he's got poor football IQ. The amount of times he's flown for aerial contests and spoiled/crashed into 2-3 Melbourne defenders already going up is disgraceful. His game against Carlton was one of the worst by a player in red n blue this decade. He's been really poor in defence, really poor. Statistically, this season in defence he's rated well below average in every single stat available except tackles, where he ranks average. In my opinion, he should never play again in defence unless we have horrendous injuries.

There's still hope to try him as a forward, where he showed a bit in one preseason game 2 years ago. If he can't excel as a marking target forward, then I'd rate him an easy delisting candidate. At 24 years old he should be hitting his peak, not struggling to even be an average league footballer and find a position. He's the type we need to stop carrying on the list for too long if we want to become a successful footy club again.

Back up for Lever as he should have been all year.

Staggered that Goody would get rid of Frost and then bring in Frost Mk II.

24 minutes ago, DeeSpencer said:

This magical idea of Smith being the root cause of Lever's problems has hidden the truth which was Smith actually played pretty well. Did a number of excellent things overshadowed by a couple of silly mistakes against Carlton, was very solid against Geelong and a couple of errors again obstructed what was an ok game against Richmond.

Agree strongly with this, as a forward, he has some great attributes that will possibly come to the fore with game time - already he is making noticeable improvements as a defender - but most likely will never be a 'killer defender'. However, I suspect that his game-time apprenticeship will serve him well, and will assist him to realise that in a thinking man's game, he could well be a 'killer forward'. The opportunity for him should continue. He can mark, he can kick set shots a distance, he can be highly mobile when not locking down an opposition forward as his first priority. He is developing the goods, without doubt.HIs Geelong contribution was quite evidentiary, as was his form development earlier last year.

4 minutes ago, Lord Travis said:

I've been pretty vocal in my disappointment with him this season. He's a good athlete, but he's got poor football IQ. The amount of times he's flown for aerial contests and spoiled/crashed into 2-3 Melbourne defenders already going up is disgraceful. His game against Carlton was one of the worst by a player in red n blue this decade. He's been really poor in defence, really poor. Statistically, this season in defence he's rated well below average in every single stat available except tackles, where he ranks average. In my opinion, he should never play again in defence unless we have horrendous injuries.

There's still hope to try him as a forward, where he showed a bit in one preseason game 2 years ago. If he can't excel as a marking target forward, then I'd rate him an easy delisting candidate. At 24 years old he should be hitting his peak, not struggling to even be an average league footballer and find a position. He's the type we need to stop carrying on the list for too long if we want to become a successful footy club again.

Of course he has a poor footy IQ.  He came to the game late, had lots of injuries & has only played abt 12 games.  It was unfair to put him in a defence along with Rivers & Lockhart in a side not playing well.  The fact that there is no regular VFL also makes it hard for him to develop.

We are better off trying him up forward where he would be hard to match up.  He has decent kicking skills, marks & runs ok.   He has more upside than Tomlinson.

1 hour ago, Damo said:

More suited up forward IMO

Correct.

5 minutes ago, Clint Bizkit said:

Correct.

Totally correct.

I would like to see him on the wing.  Good athlete, can take a mark and reasonable by foot.

31 minutes ago, buck_nekkid said:

I would like to see him on the wing.  Good athlete, can take a mark and reasonable by foot.

Has pace to burn and would fit perfectly on the Wing.

36 minutes ago, Lord Travis said:

I've been pretty vocal in my disappointment with him this season. He's a good athlete, but he's got poor football IQ. The amount of times he's flown for aerial contests and spoiled/crashed into 2-3 Melbourne defenders already going up is disgraceful. His game against Carlton was one of the worst by a player in red n blue this decade. He's been really poor in defence, really poor. Statistically, this season in defence he's rated well below average in every single stat available except tackles, where he ranks average. In my opinion, he should never play again in defence unless we have horrendous injuries.

There's still hope to try him as a forward, where he showed a bit in one preseason game 2 years ago. If he can't excel as a marking target forward, then I'd rate him an easy delisting candidate. At 24 years old he should be hitting his peak, not struggling to even be an average league footballer and find a position. He's the type we need to stop carrying on the list for too long if we want to become a successful footy club again.

Complete rubbish.

His 6.3 spoils a game is 12th in the entire competition. His 25% one on one losses is actually a respectable number alongside elite one on one defenders in Talia and Darcy Gardner. There's not a whole lot of difference between his stats and Dougal Howard who just got traded for an end of first round pick. He's not even all that different to Tom Jonas who captains the top of the ladder club.

Yeah he made a couple of bad blues against Carlton -flying for a huge hanger that wasn't worth it and one very dumb contest. But he also made McKay look dead ordinary despite having very little midfield support after 1/4 time. Lever and Jetta were worse defenders in the same game, yet alone over the last decade.

And if spoiling your team mates was a career ending crime then Gawn, Jetta, Tom McDonald, May and Lever would never play again.

Worst case scenario he's depth behind May and Oscar in case one of them go down. A 24 year old back up key defender who's a bit rough around the edges isn't the wrong type of player to have on your list, it's exactly the right type so you've got some physically ready instead of turning to a kid. There's at least half a dozen guys on the list we are carrying holding us back more than having a bit of tall defensive depth - hint: most of them are still in Melbourne.

34 minutes ago, buck_nekkid said:

I would like to see him on the wing.  Good athlete, can take a mark and reasonable by foot.

The wing is a smart footballers position - knowing how to position around stoppages and where to run to receive the ball.

He's a defender, he can position himself from an opponent and with team mates in a structure and whilst he's got to learn how to defend leading players he knows how to position himself between opponents from the basketball background. Otherwise he's a forward and you just embrace the chaos like a Gary Rohan at Geelong. The wing is too much to ask.

38 minutes ago, DeeSpencer said:

Complete rubbish...

That picture is from his profile on the club website. It's simplistic, but it paints a pretty clear picture. He's a poor defender and AFL player thus far. Harsh, but true. He should only get a game in our defence if we have a bad run with injury.

As I said, I think it's forward or bust for him.

Should start working on his bid for a place at Tokyo Olympics 2021.

2 hours ago, DeeSpencer said:

We've been spoiled with a number of high quality kids coming in to the team over the last few years that we've forgotten that developing a player isn't linear and takes time.

This magical idea of Smith being the root cause of Lever's problems has hidden the truth which was Smith actually played pretty well. Did a number of excellent things overshadowed by a couple of silly mistakes against Carlton, was very solid against Geelong and a couple of errors again obstructed what was an ok game against Richmond.

I was wrong about Oscar coming back, but on a small sample size the reality might be that Oscar might just be a lot better that he was last year and it wasn't so much about dropping Smith as giving Oscar a well deserved go.

Smith can struggle reading a man and the ball at the same time on a leading player, but from what I've seen his instincts on how to close space are very good. His marking should come on, his kicking looks far better and he can really run and pressure at ground level. So I'd be thinking really hard about getting him back in the side as a defensive half back flanker with some intercept game, shifting Hibberd in to Jetta's deeper role. Smith across half back could free Lever, Salem and Lockhart (or other attacking half back ie. Rivers etc) up more. 

Good post DS. Agree with all your points.

As i have posted i'd like to see him up forward but like you i could also see him holding down a half back spot in the role hibberd plays or to play tight on medium half forward. 

With time, patience and good development he will make it. He has the tools and the reason the club rate him so highly is his athletic gifts are rare and perfectly suited to modern footy. 

With OMac and May to play on the talls and Lever to play as a intercepting sweeper  and Jetta,  Hibbert and Salem to play on the smaller guys, there seems to be no room for Smith.

However I see the game a a unit where 7- 8 players each play a role in the backline and in the middle and rotate on the ground depending on the need at the time to find and exploit a mismatch.  Smith for all his displayed weakness can be a hard match up in a game so long as he is given some licence to play his way and be supported by the team around him.

This was the role that Frost could have played, in the backline and on a wing,  but this option was never really appreciated and developed because there was so much concern about his perceived weaknesses. If we are going to become a top side we need to find a ppoint of difference that we can exploit. Otherwise you end up with toiges and swannees.

3 hours ago, D Rev said:

With O Mac reminding us what a CHB who plays his man can do, allowing Lever to play loose and TAKE intercepting marks, where does Joel Smith now fit in?

Back up for Lever (I dont think he reads it well enough), or up forward (I dont think he kicks it well enough)?

Sorry DRev Oscar is at Full Back and agree re Letting  Jake  Find form.

No forward line just fine let him start in the scratch matches up forward and he will earn a spot at some time Don't think he is bad kick or nothing he can't improve on.

Could be  great X factor move.

4 hours ago, buck_nekkid said:

I would like to see him on the wing.  Good athlete, can take a mark and reasonable by foot.

Not so silly does he have a tank?

7 hours ago, Lord Travis said:

That picture is from his profile on the club website. It's simplistic, but it paints a pretty clear picture. He's a poor defender and AFL player thus far. Harsh, but true. He should only get a game in our defence if we have a bad run with injury.

As I said, I think it's forward or bust for him.

Possession mean very little for a key defender. The only stat that matters there is you'd like him to up the number of marks, but Lever and May were in the side to mark it more than Smith anyway.

There was some switching but his primary match ups were McKay (6 touches 1 behind, Rohan 6 touches 0 score, Riewoldt 9 touches 1 goal). Averaging 7 touches isn't so bad when your opponents only get that many too.

You say 'bad run with injury'. If either May or Oscar are injured or need a break over the period where they cram multiple games in shorter breaks then Smith will be straight in, there's not really any other options.

He's a project player that I think is going to take time. For me his instincts resemble more of a Russell Roberston and I think he's more suited to playing as a forward. He's got the natural athleticism, but just doesn't seem to have much of a footy IQ, for me that's why he looks like a liability in defence.

I'm hoping at some point this year he gets a crack playing forward. If he's able to take out opposition players in the same way he took out his teammates against Carlton that could actually be quite valuable.

I think Smith will be a decent mid-lockdown defender as compared to a tall defender most seem to think he is. He's played his best this season when matched up against the explosive/power mids, such as Danger and Martin, who rest forward and who are very dangerous. A match up against teams that have those type of players could be very valuable, and could play then alongside Omac, May and Lever. As long as his role is defined then I think it can still work, but not against all teams. 

Smith is versatile. Can play forward, back, wing or half forward. Mid sized. Does he have a set defined position. No. It means he’s really a back stop type of player. A filler.

Yet we only have to look at a bloke who has starred for the Pies over the last 3 years. Jeremy Howe (j-ho).  He is the same prototype as Smith. It’s a shame J-Ho is injured as I would get Smith to watch J-ho in action. 
 

The issue with Joel is his footy IQ. It takes time and he does and will make mistakes. But he’s got athletic ability and can be very handy. 

At the moment he’s probably slotted in as a fringe type player. 25-30.  I think he’s probably one who might ask or be considered for a trade option at end of 2020. 

16 hours ago, Fifty-5 said:

Should start working on his bid for a place at Tokyo Olympics 2021.

Is jumping into your teammates back and spoiling them an event next year? 

Edited July 13, 20204 yr by Ethan Tremblay