4 hours ago, Lucifer's Hero said:

Footnote:  while accepting the injuries were contact related what it says to me is that in 2017/2018 our aggressive crash/bash game plan wasn't suited to the then immature bodies.  That nearly all the contact injuries/surgeries were to players that have not been in the AFL long supports that view. 

 

3 hours ago, binman said:

One im not sure it is accurate (ie some of the surgeries were wear and tear e.g. omac, a number of senior players had contact injuries eg melk, hannan, avb).

But none the less I agree the style took an obvious toll. But if that is the model goody wants the team to become second nature then it is the approach they had to employ.

What had me thinking here was Goody saying that our brand was "brutal and dominant" when we were flying in 18, but that we couldn't execute that mode in 19 because of the injury count. The Burgess "defence of the previous fitness regime" comment that they were more contact injuries rather than soft tissues made me wonder whether there was an element of Catch 22 about the game style, with a query over its sustainability in the longer term.   

From a supporter's point of view I love "brutal and dominant", and if it is sustainable and can be effectively deployed count me in. 

27 minutes ago, The Stigga said:

You have to wonder how many blokes were injured going into the WC game...

 

21 minutes ago, binman said:

Who knows, but no doubt we were totally cooked.

 

8 minutes ago, stevethemanjordan said:

I don't buy it.

You don't win two finals and then just become totally cooked. 

There were multiple factors as to why we lost that game in the manner we did.

Being cooked was one of many.

As you say 'steve', there were many reasons.

We might have finally run our race...call that cooked if you like but I think it probably overstates things.

...but the big one for me is we definitely had list issues, which we're addressing.

The 2 finals wins we had were against teams that had their own issues, they probably gave us an inflated sense of where we really were.

4 hours ago, Lucifer's Hero said:

Mainly the way the questioned was delivered:  agresssive tone, derogatory language, repetition of these by rewording them and the completely implausible accusation that the club keep Oscar so they can keep Tom.

The guy made a fool of himself and as he went on there were gasps, boos and the odd clap. 

I thought the panel handled it very well with Bartlett asking the audience to show respect to a person as they have a right to ask their questions and by Goodwin who briefly but convincingly stated his faith in Oscar.

I've seen similar comments made on here but I can't remember who it was.  I don't think it was the perennial Oscar non-fans; STMJ nor Pickett Fence.  I've never seen them talk of Oscar in the terms the fellow did last night.

Good for Bartlett, he could have also made the comment as per the McCarthy hearings,  "Have You No Decency, Sir" 

It sounds like his nastiness backfired on him as it should.  Frankly, I would have thrown the guy out of the meeting. 

What a person needs is support not abuse when things are not going right. The mental health issues that we see and read about daily should be sufficient reminder.  

 

 

 

29 minutes ago, rjay said:

 

 

As you say 'steve', there were many reasons.

We might have finally run our race...call that cooked if you like but I think it probably overstates things.

...but the big one for me is we definitely had list issues, which we're addressing.

The 2 finals wins we had were against teams that had their own issues, they probably gave us an inflated sense of where we really were.

Goodwin said the signs were there in the 2nd half of the Hawthorn final when we could no longer play our style.

I recall David King saying in the review of that final "if Melbourne play like that against West Coast next week they'll get smashed" and he was right.

So it wasn't "suddenly"

52 minutes ago, stevethemanjordan said:

I don't buy it.

You don't win two finals and then just become totally cooked. 

There were multiple factors as to why we lost that game in the manner we did.

Being cooked was one of many.

Including Meth no doubt doing their homework and adjusting a few match ups / tweaking game style a tad.

Massive cauldron also probably played  part.

Then there's the Margetts and Dagleesh factor.  Did either of those two adjudicate on the day?

4 hours ago, praha said:

What was the question asked about Omac?

Is he still playing off scratch.

1 hour ago, rjay said:

 

 

As you say 'steve', there were many reasons.

We might have finally run our race...call that cooked if you like but I think it probably overstates things.

...but the big one for me is we definitely had list issues, which we're addressing.

The 2 finals wins we had were against teams that had their own issues, they probably gave us an inflated sense of where we really were.

I wasn't suggesting our loss was only down to being cooked. Of course there were other reasons. Not least the fact we were playing a better team, coming off a weeks break, at their home ground accross the other side of the country.

But at the ground it was really hot and you could see early that players were blowing up. Most were running up and down on the spot by half way through the second q - maxy being one.

Edited November 20, 20195 yr by binman

1 hour ago, The Stigga said:

You have to wonder how many blokes were injured going into the WC game...

Probably a similar number to those that played against Geelong and Hawthorn

16 hours ago, jnrmac said:

That's glib. And total BS.

Coaches have plans when one down with injury, or a team kicks 5 in a row, or they are kicking with the wind, or its wet, or the opposition is taller etc etc.

The issue as Goodwin knows is what to do when Plan A isn't working. Maybe thats why we were so cooked this year. Certainly fits with the 'Goodwin is stubborn' view - how long did it take for him to change when teams kept chipping the ball and switching against us.

One thing I love about demonland is the complete lack of nuance. Something is either true or "TOTAL BS".

Goodwin was making a point in the context of a discussion about playing a contested brand of footy, cohesion between players and efficiency in implementing the game plan. He's talking about what for what of a better word is now described as a "brand".

I read it as Plan A is how we want to play. What happens when it's not working is shifts in tempo, individuals put into different positions, using one stopping player or two, or none at all.

Plan A is our strategy. Those shifts in-game are tactics. Tactics change according to how the opposition wants to play, but the way we want to play - Plan A - does not change. Shifts in tactics are intended to enable us to play to our agreed strategy.

 

 

2 minutes ago, pitmaster said:

One thing I love about demonland is the complete lack of nuance. Something is either true or "TOTAL BS".

Goodwin was making a point in the context of a discussion about playing a contested brand of footy, cohesion between players and efficiency in implementing the game plan. He's talking about what for what of a better word is now described as a "brand".

I read it as Plan A is how we want to play. What happens when it's not working is shifts in tempo, individuals put into different positions, using one stopping player or two, or none at all.

Plan A is our strategy. Those shifts in-game are tactics. Tactics change according to how the opposition wants to play, but the way we want to play - Plan A - does not change. Shifts in tactics are intended to enable us to play to our agreed strategy.

 

 

Very good summation Pitmaster. 

Tactics or what is now called game plans have to be simple. Footballers are not Einsteins. Although in fairness, tactics should be simple at any standard or level of footy. The old Kennedy adage, "don't think, ACT."  

AFL footy is so intense that you can't overthink the game. 

So keep tactics simple and have great on-field leadership to provide direction.

All top teams have the combination of great coaches and great captains. 

The problem is achieving the balance of having a game plan whilst having the flexibility in thought and mind to make tactical changes. It is a matter of timing and knowing the capabilities of your players. It is so much easier when you have a team of stars that can change a game by their creativity and brilliance. Much harder when you have a team of battlers or simply a team without the will to win.  

 

6 hours ago, Fifty-5 said:

I like it, Jones is either midfield depth or defensive forward IMO.  He can't play other roles e.g. wing or defence.

According to Goodwin he has come back in best shape this year.  I'd prefer Jones to ANB.

In response to a question re the role for Jones next season, Goodwin said they want to play him high forward

Apologies if already mentioned, but something else I liked hearing from Burgess is that he doesnt want players running laps at training. He wants them ball in hand, getting into the drills, skill work.. etc

Just curious did anyone outline how many games they expect to win next season? I am very worried that the club is a little delusional on where our list is and just how hard it’s going to be to get back into finals. 

16 minutes ago, trout said:

Just curious did anyone outline how many games they expect to win next season? I am very worried that the club is a little delusional on where our list is and just how hard it’s going to be to get back into finals. 

No to the first question.

As to the emboldened remark it was said explicitly the club believes it already has a list capable of getting the job done.

1 hour ago, trout said:

Just curious did anyone outline how many games they expect to win next season? I am very worried that the club is a little delusional on where our list is and just how hard it’s going to be to get back into finals. 

I don't think it's the list. I think it's the club.

57 minutes ago, pitmaster said:

No to the first question.

As to the emboldened remark it was said explicitly the club believes it already has a list capable of getting the job done.

Thanks for the response pitmaster, well certainly going to be an interesting year. I think our list is more than capable of playing finals if we get momentum and things fall in place. But after the year we have just had there are so many unknowns it’s hard to feel particularly confident about making finals. And I certainly don’t feel our list is anywhere near where Richmond, Collingwood’s and West Coast’s are to challenge for the premiership but boy I hope I am wrong and the club right.

23 hours ago, Fifty-5 said:

I'm a renowned happy clapper so the informative midfield pre season graph is preaching to the converted.

Firstly, thanks to all those who provided further information and slides from the night.  Much appreciated as I'm never a chance of getting t to those things.

Secondly, as Fifty-5 mentioned above, I really don't think it can be understated how much the pre-season affected us (even though some were saying we didn't have anyone with an interrupted pre-season, but whatever...).  I think Burgess making the comment that it's close to impossible to catch up on any fitness/conditioning etc. when the season is underway highlights how far behind the eight ball we were before a ball was even bounced.  We were under prepared, not fit enough and didn't have the cohesion to put into practice any changes to the gameplan.

Of course, there were probably a few mistakes made along the way that we will learn from, but I have every confidence that we can bounce back and play finals in 2020 if we keep the majority of our list fit and on the park for the season.

20 hours ago, hemingway said:

Good for Bartlett, he could have also made the comment as per the McCarthy hearings,  "Have You No Decency, Sir" 

It sounds like his nastiness backfired on him as it should.  Frankly, I would have thrown the guy out of the meeting. 

What a person needs is support not abuse when things are not going right. The mental health issues that we see and read about daily should be sufficient reminder.  

 

 

 

Unless he was being really offensive, or aggressive, or not following the forum rules, you can't throw someone out just for delivering a message you don't like, in a manner you find rude or boorish.

You deal with it as they appear to have done.

throwing someone out is a bad look and just gives him an axe to grind

1 hour ago, Wiseblood said:

I really don't think it can be understated how much the pre-season affected us (even though some were saying we didn't have anyone with an interrupted pre-season, but whatever...).  I think Burgess making the comment that it's close to impossible to catch up on any fitness/conditioning etc. when the season is underway highlights how far behind the eight ball we were before a ball was even bounced.  We were under prepared, not fit enough and didn't have the cohesion to put into practice any changes to the gameplan.

Of course, there were probably a few mistakes made along the way that we will learn from, but I have every confidence that we can bounce back and play finals in 2020 if we keep the majority of our list fit and on the park for the season.

I've seen barely a handful of people on DL say we didn't have an interrupted pre-season.  Quite the contrary.  Many just take a more balanced view.

The charts Mahoney put up on injuries were but a part of a much bigger picture.  So one needs to be careful of overstating their impact. 

The changes made off-field are recognition by the club that it wasn't just injuries/surgeries.  Recognition that there were problems in many parts of our football activities.  The other slides show what the club has addressed.  The ones that stood out to me were (in no particular order):

• Coaching structure.  The structure is excellent (albeit I'm not convinced of all the people in the roles).  It will do a great deal for strategies/tactics, clear, un-conflicted communication to players, their roles and for their development.  In turn this will help with, among other things, ball movement and reduce the confusion and loss of confidence we saw later in the season.
• Improved player role understanding that comes from the first item and other initiatives will be significant for the success of the game plan.  Mahoney referred to the way Richmond players know their role and play their role.  I got the impression we need to do better teaching.
• Football data analysis and meaningful presentation to coaches for strategies and tactics.
• Well being program not just for players but club wide
• Greater investment into medical and fitness
• Change of emphasis on recruiting
• Revisit aspects of the game plan.

These weren't just powerpoint 'words' to appease fans at the forum.  The club has been very thorough in its club review and taken action on each and every one and has programs in place.  All credit to them.

Some people still think our 17th position was due to surgeries and injuries while making mere passing reference to 'other issues'.  By its actions the club is saying that injuries/surgeries were significant but there were bigger issues at play as evidenced by the overhaul I've summarised above. 

In fact, Mahoney and Goodwin virtually said we dropped the ball.  Making the prelim had people (club, players, coaches) thinking it was just a few steps to a GF and then perhaps a premiership.  This caused the club to lose sight of the 'fundamentals' (their word).  My description of that while it might be provocative, is 'hubris'.

Goodwin mentioned that after round 22 they did a 'dump' (his word) with the players where they laid everything on the table.  You can bet the players and coaches weren't blaming injuries/surgeries for being 17th.

I think its time fans move on from believing injuries/surgeries were the problem in 2019.  The other issues collectively were much much bigger otherwise the club wouldn't be changing so much of its operations.

Edited November 20, 20195 yr by Lucifer's Hero

40 minutes ago, Lucifer's Hero said:

I've seen barely a handful of people on DL say we didn't have an interrupted pre-season.  Quite the contrary.  Many just take a more balanced view.

The charts Mahoney put up on injuries were but a part of a much bigger picture.  So one needs to be careful of overstating their impact. 

The changes made off-field are recognition by the club that it wasn't just injuries/surgeries.  Recognition that there were problems in many parts of our football activities.  The other slides show what the club has addressed.  The ones that stood out to me were (in no particular order):

• Coaching structure.  The structure is excellent (albeit I'm not convinced of all the people in the roles).  It will do a great deal for strategies/tactics, clear, un-conflicted communication to players, their roles and for their development.  In turn this will help with, among other things, ball movement and reduce the confusion and loss of confidence we saw later in the season.
• Improved player role understanding that comes from the first item and other initiatives will be significant for the success of the game plan.
• Football data analysis and meaningful presentation to coaches for strategies and tactics.
• Well being program not just for players but club wide
• Greater investment into medical and fitness
• Change of emphasis on recruiting
• Revisit aspects of the game plan.

These weren't just powerpoint 'words' to appease fans at the forum.  The club has been very thorough on its club review and taken action on each and every one and has programs in place.  All credit to them.

Some people still think our 17th position was due to surgeries and injuries while making mere passing reference to 'other issues'.  By the actions the club it is saying that injuries/surgeries were significant but there were bigger issues at play as evidenced by the overhaul I've summarised above. 

In fact, Mahoney and Goodwin virtually said we dropped the ball.  Making the prelim had people (club, players, coaches) thinking it was just a few steps to a GF and then perhaps a premiership.  This caused the club to lose sight of the 'fundamentals' (their word).  My description of that while it might be provocative, is 'hubris'.

Goodwin mentioned that after round 22 they did a 'dump' (his word) with the players where they laid everything on the table.  You can bet the players and coaches weren't blaming injuries/surgeries for being 17th.

I think its time fans move on from believing injuries/surgeries were the problem in 2019.  The other issues collectively were much much bigger otherwise the club wouldn't be changing so much of its operations.

Great analysis and summary Lucifer. 

The injuries did expose our lack of "star power" and our general lack of depth across all lines. We simply did not have the cattle on the field.  And with our poor start, the confidence slipped away, momentum was lost and the players were always chasing. 

However, the clubs reaction post season, its stability, its unity and its decision making cannot be faulted. It reflects a professionally run club that has processed the poor season and taken action to address the problem. It does not fix everything and no doubt it will be a topsy turvy season in 2020 but it does give you confidence that the club know's what it's doing. 

It's actions have not been indicative of a club in crisis or a fractious club. There have been no leaks, no slagging off by disgruntled players or coaches, and, importantly, no media beat ups from the dirt diggers. 

 

 

 

1 hour ago, Wiseblood said:

Firstly, thanks to all those who provided further information and slides from the night.  Much appreciated as I'm never a chance of getting t to those things.

Secondly, as Fifty-5 mentioned above, I really don't think it can be understated how much the pre-season affected us (even though some were saying we didn't have anyone with an interrupted pre-season, but whatever...).  I think Burgess making the comment that it's close to impossible to catch up on any fitness/conditioning etc. when the season is underway highlights how far behind the eight ball we were before a ball was even bounced.  We were under prepared, not fit enough and didn't have the cohesion to put into practice any changes to the gameplan.

Of course, there were probably a few mistakes made along the way that we will learn from, but I have every confidence that we can bounce back and play finals in 2020 if we keep the majority of our list fit and on the park for the season.

Goodwin is already on record as saying that they underestimated 6-6-6 and that they made the mistake of trying to add complexity and nuance to their gameplan rather than work on refining the basics. They're just two things he has addressed. There are others.

So I don't buy the 'didn't have the cohesion' story. If they didn't have the cohesion it was in the coaching dept.

A wholesale change in the way we structure the coaching and fitness dept isn't tinkering at the edges. It's a fundamental shift.

Maybe they have acknowledged that internally and are trotting out the company line publicly. That's fine. You wouldn't expect them to come out and say 'we totally botched it and have got rid of all the muppets who couldn't coach'.

What it does do is put a whole heap of pressure on the first 5-6 rounds next year. New coaching staff, new fitness staff, new Director of coaching. They need to get he cohesion of the coaching dept working pretty well or it will be carnage if we 0-5.

1 hour ago, Lucifer's Hero said:

I've seen barely a handful of people on DL say we didn't have an interrupted pre-season.  Quite the contrary.  Many just take a more balanced view.

I think its time fans move on from believing injuries/surgeries were the problem in 2019.  The other issues collectively were much much bigger otherwise the club wouldn't be changing so much of its operations.

It was one person really.  He knows who he is.  I was trying to be more subtle but yeah, whatever.

And who says I, or others, haven't moved on?  Don't put words in my mouth, like you're want to do.  All I've said is that what they presented supports what many viewed as the major issue for 2019.  That's all.  Why you need a massive diatribe to try and make that more than it is, is beyond me.  

I can't wait for 2020.  2019 is well and truly in the rear view mirror.  Doesn't mean I can't say that I believe our pre-season, and the injuries and surgeries we had, wasn't a major reason for the shocker we had. 

39 minutes ago, jnrmac said:

Goodwin is already on record as saying that they underestimated 6-6-6 and that they made the mistake of trying to add complexity and nuance to their gameplan rather than work on refining the basics. They're just two things he has addressed. There are others.

So I don't buy the 'didn't have the cohesion' story. If they didn't have the cohesion it was in the coaching dept.

A wholesale change in the way we structure the coaching and fitness dept isn't tinkering at the edges. It's a fundamental shift.

Maybe they have acknowledged that internally and are trotting out the company line publicly. That's fine. You wouldn't expect them to come out and say 'we totally botched it and have got rid of all the muppets who couldn't coach'.

What it does do is put a whole heap of pressure on the first 5-6 rounds next year. New coaching staff, new fitness staff, new Director of coaching. They need to get he cohesion of the coaching dept working pretty well or it will be carnage if we 0-5.

If we are 0-5 jnr then Goodwin's time at the MFC will be close to over. In fact I would say it is play finals in 2020 or the highway  back to Adelaide for him.

4 hours ago, trout said:

Just curious did anyone outline how many games they expect to win next season? I am very worried that the club is a little delusional on where our list is and just how hard it’s going to be to get back into finals. 

Never mentioned. The only measure  commented on was sustained success and playing finals next year.

27 minutes ago, Wiseblood said:

can't wait for 2020.  2019 is well and truly in the rear view mirror

At the present time, that's all that matters.

i find the comment that we didn't handle the 666 well a bit of an indictment. The football department should have been all over it.