10 minutes ago, daisycutter said:

i wonder how much of this [censored] goes back to the pre-season camp the players vetoed

always did raise a red flag for me

whether you blame coach or players for this fiasco camp, did it create a dis-connect between players and footy dept that remained unresolved?

can't help but think that there is something deeper going on here that's not being vocalised

That camp was at the end of 2017... how does that effect whats happening in today's result? 

When we were beating the cats and hawks and on our way to the prelim there was absolutely no talk of a "pre season camp"..

I think we focus whats happened last pre season when we are putting 15 players to surgery or half our list unable to get on the training track until February.

Edited July 30, 20195 yr by dazzledavey36

1 hour ago, Ron Burgundy said:

I agree. Roos laid the defensive foundations and structures very effectively

 

Yes he did. But he also  had a huge emphasis on contested ball and as result focused on getting contested ball winners to the club. 

I think Roos did a fantastic job for the dees and i have nothing but respect for what he did for us. But i reckon he has deflected responsibility for our current situation.

I am rapt the club isn't falling into crisis mode and making crazy public statements.  I'm over arguing the impact of a rubbish preseason (and therefore no fitness base) and injuries. To me it is obvious. As Webber noted the correlation between these two interconnected issues and ladder position is an irrefutable fact.  Believe it or not believe it. 

But of course that's not to say we don't have issues that need to b addressed if we are to win flag in the next 5 years. And as i have pointed our for a long time, including during the Roos era, my belief is that the number one issue for the MFC is the lack of kicking skills in our team. This issue was evident last year but has been laid bare this year with so many of best 22 not available, exposing our second stringers, who of course have even less skill.

Roos chose not to address this issue, focusing instead on meat and potato ball winners. And Roos bangs on every week on On the Couch about the low standard of foot skills across the AFL (they should train more!). Well why on earth didn't he recruit some elite ball users, like the best coach of the modern era, Clarkson, has been doing for a decade.  

Under Roos the one player who came to the club with elite foot skills, Salem, came at the cost of missing out on Josh Kelly, arguably the best kick in the game and some would say the added cost of getting Tyson who regularly butchered the ball for us. 

And after Roos, Goodwin, who shares the Roos love of contested ball winners, doubled down and went after more contested ball winners and then traded out our best kick in Watts (yes, yes i know why) and traded in a poor kick in Lever, which cost us access to first round draft picks which they could have used to target foot skills, not to mention valuable salary cap space they could of used to target an elite ball user.  

On Watts i'll bet London to a brick many of the posters bemoaning our terrible foot skills were all for getting rid of him and disagreed with my comments at the time about the folly of trading out one of only two elite kicks in our team when it was so evident that kicking skills (and composure) was a massive problem for us (and by the please don't bring up Fritter - we could have kept Watts and still trade in Fritter and so have both. And besides Fritter has shown that he is nowhere near as reliable a kck as Watts).

Edited July 30, 20195 yr by binman

2 hours ago, sue said:

I don't get this 'brand' thing.  When you are missing targets, handballing to the opponent and kicking randomly, then how can any brand (whatever that is) be apparent to the observer?  The fundamental problem is not lack of brand.  It is lack of skills and confidence (and dare I say it, lack of uninjured players doesn't help either).

Unfortunately our brand is the missing targets, handballing to the opponents and just all round deplorable skills. It's been that way for as long as I can remember, and not even Roos appeared to fix it, or even care about it.

We need to be taking a leaf out of the Cats book, and making sure every player comes back from holidays in tip top shape and spend the whole summer working on skills. Players need to have a football in hand at all times, like it's another part of them. Running warm up laps? Must carry a ball. Sprints? Ball. I swear some games it looks like our players have never seen a footy before.

After this year, any player that comes back from the break underdone needs to have their papers stamped immediately. If they're happier at the bottom of the ladder than winning flags they can rack off to Carlton.

43 minutes ago, Lord Nev said:

Brand just means what they stand for. Get over the terminology and focus on the point.

Terminology is important.  Some posters take it to mean 'style of play', others something more intangible like the above post. 

 I prefer the former definition since it really means something. Unfortunately, as I posted, if you can't do the basic skills, it is hard to know what the style/gameplan is, let alone if it is any good. 

1 minute ago, sue said:

Terminology is important.  Some posters take it to mean 'style of play', others something more intangible like the above post. 

 I prefer the former definition since it really means something. Unfortunately, as I posted, if you can't do the basic skills, it is hard to know what the style/gameplan is, let alone if it is any good. 

So if you can't tell what the brand is, there is no brand then.

I honestly hope someone in the media brings up the idea of Roos returning to Melbourne as a football director. Goodwin clearly needs help. He is way out of his depth. It's like when an operations manager takes over a particular department that he was in for years where everything was running smoothly or at least, they knew the problem and knew it would be improved over time. He's never seen things go pear shape and see how the previous manager responded to this.

Goodwin has had no training when the wheels start to fall off - he doesn't know how to rectify things and get things back on track. Goodwin should put his hand up and ask for an experienced football director to help him solve this problem. It's clear that McCartney has not assisted Goodwin with his reign. 

Edited July 30, 20195 yr by At the break of Gawn

2 minutes ago, Lord Nev said:

So if you can't tell what the brand is, there is no brand then.

No, there might be a 'brand' (in the sense of style/gameplan intended by the coach) but it is just imperceptible,, lost in a tsunami of turnovers etc.  As for the other meaning of 'brand', I doubt it matters if you win lots of games. 

Just now, At the break of Gawn said:

I honestly hope someone in the media brings up the idea of Roos returning to Melbourne as a football director. Goodwin clearly needs help. He is way out of his depth. It's like when an operations manager takes over a particular department that he was in for years where everything was running smoothly or at least, they knew the problem and knew it would be improved over time. He's never seen things go pear shape and see how the previous manager responded to this.

Goodwin has had no training when the wheels start to fall off - he doesn't know how to rectify things and get things back on track. Goodwin should put his hand up and ask for an experience football director to help him solve this problem. It's clear that McCartney has not assisted Goodwin with his reign. 

I honestly think we'd be more likely to sack Goodwin and just wear the payout on our soft cap than we are to re-appoint Roos alongside him. 

but i do agree the team around Goodwin needs a serious shakeup, and an injection of experience, and the game plan needs an overhaul. 

 

49 minutes ago, dazzledavey36 said:

That camp was at the end of 2017... how does that effect whats happening in today's result? 

When we were beating the cats and hawks and on our way to the prelim there was absolutely no talk of a "pre season camp"..

I think we focus whats happened last pre season when we are putting 15 players to surgery or half our list unable to get on the training track until February.

fair enough dazzle. i must have got my pre-seasons mixed up, thinking it was the last one. probably just over-thinking the whole thing, but i just can't help thinking there is something else going on here other than the obvious stuff you mentioned.....oh well.... 

6 hours ago, Adzman said:

Oh we have a brand. It's to torture our supporter base decade after decade.

If you ask me they have been true to brand this season

186?   Pffft, that's nothing.  I was there for 190 in 1979 vs Fitzroy at Waverley.

To whack Roos for expressing an opinion with his media hat on is off the mark.

In my view he is 100% correct.  His and PJ's jobs were to stabilise the MFC's business and footy culture which was so damaged by the previous administration.  To a large extent, they got that done.  But I have to wonder, despite what they said when their tenures were apparently over, did they really want to leave when they did?

I have a sneaking suspicion that over the last 18 months or so, there have been a few 'captain's' calls made, which have not gone down that well with many inside the club.  ..... And I don't mean the captains on the playing field.

 

Edited July 30, 20195 yr by iv'a worn smith

We need to build our brand inside the club.  When this happens, it will start to be apparent outside the club to the media and others.  This has been a terrible year, and on top of all of the excuses, I think the heat is now coming in regard to skills and style - quite reasonably given pre-season expectations.  Keep piling it on.  The bigger the hurt, I hope the bigger the lesson.  With all of the young players, I hope they are learning that you are not top 4 until you make it so, and you have to HURT to get there.  It is not simply being chosen by media pundits.  When they learn and go back to basics, and build what we need inside the club and become ruthless about executing the skills and plan required, I believe things will turn around.

We deserve the kick, and I hope it helps the players feel the ‘darkest hour’ so they build resilience and desire to get to, and stay at, the top.

An interesting contrast are those teams which currently have 'caretaker' coaches and have since been winning their fair share of games.  In those cases, the coaches have simply said, go out and enjoy your footy and back yourselves in, within the gameplan structure.

It does not seem to me that our guys are enjoying their footy.  I guess you wouldn't when you are beaten by what should be inferior sides and often, we are in winning positions, only to throw it away.  That would give anyone the irits 

Roosy whether he likes it or not takes some part of the success or failure of this group.  he got some credit last year so he can take some blame

If Goody turns out to be a poor coach (I believe he is a good coach and will turn things around) it will be as big a F-up as G Lyon being part of the hiring of Neeld

 

 

4 hours ago, In Harmes Way said:

I had a Holden Monaro with a 186 motor in it. 

Rolled it.

I don’t believe that injuries alone explain the team’s fall from grace this year but I recall last year’s two home finals against Geelong and Hawthorn when we had Tom McDonald and Sam Weideman fit, firing and available. I don’t think we had a problem with “brand” back then - why is that an issue this year when we are bereft of key forwards.

 I think Roos’ comments are fairly superficial and quite frankly, dumb.  

7 hours ago, sue said:

I don't get this 'brand' thing.  When you are missing targets, handballing to the opponent and kicking randomly, then how can any brand (whatever that is) be apparent to the observer?  The fundamental problem is not lack of brand.  It is lack of skills and confidence (and dare I say it, lack of uninjured players doesn't help either).

All the players have skills - some clearly better than others. The issue is they are confused and don't know what to do. It's like they get the ball and say to themselves 'don't mess this up', 'hit the target, 'give the ball off to the nearest team member', 'kick the ball to an outside runner', 'handball backwards to a team mate running forward', ''switch the play but FFS don' t kick to the corridor',  'play on quickly but don't turn it over, or kick to a dangerous spot, or a one-on-one',..

.. all in the split second before than are tackled to the ground.

So then they rush their decision or are frozen by fear hence the shocking turnovers. This adds to the pressure and players trust in their team mates. Also the players distrust of the coaches. Once that breaks down, people don't run to position, do the 1%ers for their opponents and they start playing for themselves.. Its cancerous.

And when there is little on field leadership it all goes downhill,

Compare this to an Al Clarkson coached side. They have a well drilled game plan and know where to kick to, where to run and when to switch. Fagan has borrowed it and because he has Hodge on field coaching it has come together very quickly.

Goodwin is stubborn and insists on playing 'the melbourne way' whatever that is, regardless of how the game is being played, the weather conditions, the opposition, our personnel or the scoreboard. You see that from his ridiculous team selections at times.

The only times I have really seen him vary this approach significantly is against WCE 2 weeks ago when we should have won,  and against WCE in rd 22 last year.

We supporters know how the team plays and can almost write the script. Watch Houli get 30 damaging touches this weekend , Jack kick 6. and Dylan Grimes look like a superstar. 

The brand criticism is BS. What is a club’s brand?

Wins/losses however is fact.

Ladder position is fact. 

14 minutes ago, Whispering_Jack said:

I don’t believe that injuries alone explain the team’s fall from grace this year but I recall last year’s two home finals against Geelong and Hawthorn when we had Tom McDonald and Sam Weideman fit, firing and available. I don’t think we had a problem with “brand” back then - why is that an issue this year when we are bereft of key forwards.

 I think Roos’ comments are fairly superficial and quite frankly, dumb.  

I agree, last year we had two key forwards marking everything in the finals, so we could kick long with a degree of confidence. 

now the club is acutely aware of the critisism of it's efficiency inside 50 and is toying with the way it's kicking the ball in, and it's causing quite a lot of confusion. 

the game is much simpler when you know you can play on, run and kick long with confidence someone would be able to take a mark, we haven't had that for the majority of this year. 

8 hours ago, Lord Nev said:

Not sure on if he's made up his mind just yet, but from what I've heard he does have the passion to get back involved at clubland in some capacity. Won't be with the Dees though.

ie if Carlton pony up enough money he'll go there for a couple of years

8 hours ago, Lord Nev said:

Standard Demonland response. Attack the person making the comment rather than admit the problem.

 

There's problems in fitness, there's problems in list management, there's problems in coaching and everywhere else. The idea that we could fix it all by attempting to play with a particular brand of football ignores all the actual problems. 

28 minutes ago, Whispering_Jack said:

I don’t believe that injuries alone explain the team’s fall from grace this year but I recall last year’s two home finals against Geelong and Hawthorn when we had Tom McDonald and Sam Weideman fit, firing and available. I don’t think we had a problem with “brand” back then - why is that an issue this year when we are bereft of key forwards.

 I think Roos’ comments are fairly superficial and quite frankly, dumb.  

Agree WJ.

He appeared to bask in the success of last year and now appears to be distancing himself from any blame, if there is any.

As to the different forward line last year, you can add Melksham missing at least 10 games so far and a complete loss of form and then injury to Jeffy.

If he just said we have been terrible this year it would be undeniable, but brand is BS. 

Have the Pies lost their brand in the last 6 weeks, or is their brand protected by injuries?

For the majority of the year we had no backline. Currently, we have no forward line. If this year has shown is anything, we don't have the depth we thought we had. Saturday we played with at least eight blokes that we are unsure are good enough. 

Add to that any team in the AFL missing their best players will struggle over a prolonged period of time.

7 hours ago, Laughing Goat said:

Roos escalated our wins, developed a sustainable game plan that held up against quality opposition & finally the MFC supporters could go to the footy with some confidence that the players would be competitive.

Success at football clubs is about wins, loses & premierships & whether you agree or not, we were heading in the right direction with a recognised 'brand' or the right 'balance' that won enough games to elevate the club.

Unfortunately, the current regime has squandered all of Roosey's great work with no game plan, no balance & thoughts only for their own personal development & success.

One step forward & 2 steps back.....

 

We won 4 games in year 1 of Roos: against Carlton, Adelaide, Ess and Richmond. And the last 3 there kicked awfully at goal. Ess and Richmond made finals but lost. The entire game plan was long down the line, stack the backline and hope the other team misses chances.

In 2015 up until the final round we'd won 6 games: Against Bris, Rich, GC, Geel, Bulldogs. Dogs and Richmond both lost elimination finals. In round 23 that year we played a dead rubber against a Giants side at Etihad and it featured a far different game plan. Dunn was moved forward, Mitch White came in to the side and the team played with a zone defence for the first time, and won at Etihad for the first time.

2016 was Roos as head coach and figurehead whilst we implemented Goodwin's game plan. We were aggressive with the zone defensive system that all the top teams were using. We finally started getting some forward pressure. We moved the ball quickly and started scoring. We beat Hawthorn for the first time in forever. We added some nice away performances. But there were still heaps of negatives including losing to Carlton in round 22 after giving a Port team in contention for finals a nice touch up. 

2016 was Goodwin's ideas with Roos' guidance. Then 2017 - more wins and 2018 - more wins again was Goodwin in charge. Yes, there's times he's overdone the attacking strategy but he's also never had a reliable backline out on the park and rarely had a fully fit midfield or hard working forwards. The midfield got younger as it got better, moving Vince, Cross and then Jones to peripheral roles for the young guys to take over. 

My point is there was no Roos sustainable excellent game plan implemented. Roos set about a simple plan of defending hard and having a crack. I don't even think at any stage this year we've lost our strong attack on the ball and outside the first 5 weeks there's actually been a lot of really hard running and defensive work. It certainly looks like we've lost a lot of the hard working culture that Roos preached but the fitness is bad, the motivation is low, the leadership is poor and the talent is awful right now.