On 23/07/2019 at 02:34, DeeSpencer said:

The criticism of Lyon comes from the fact he (either voluntarily or through coercion) wandered in to the club to have a bit of a dip at selecting coaches without joining the board and doing it properly.

He had the same thing in his coaching career where he dipped the toes in but never put it on the line.

He has nice TV skills but is a relatively lazy caller and panellist. There's little quality to his analysis. Whilst not actively bad like many in the industry he doesn't really seek out anything of interest. No advance stats. No tactical breakdown. 

There's a bunch of reasons we are where we are:

1. Injuries - losing May, Lever and Jetta for half a year screwed the backline and when they come back the best 2 forwards are out.
2. Lack of fitness after going all in for last year
3. A number of traded in players - Lewis, Hibberd, Garlett starting to trail off. By the way, the alternative to bringing in mature players in the Roos years was for the rebuild to take longer and slower and less chance of working. Can't have your cake and eat it too.
4. Recruiting failures in finding outside runners and small forwards - by the way we aren't the only club in that situation
5. Game plan - the advantages we had in 2017 and 2018, maybe even 2016 as well, have been found out. I truly believe our coaches got a lot out of the group in terms of tactics in previous years. Some worked, some didn't but we weren't boring and had a plan.
6. Coaching structure - there's something up with the McCartney situation, the Rawlings back to the forwards from Casey, Rooke etc.

Acting overly emotional doesn't help. We won 10 games in 2016, 12 games in 2017 and plenty of games last year. That's largely without Lever and May, with a very young Oliver, Harmes, Brayshaw, Salem and Petracca, with Jack Viney missing a lot of footy. 

The President seems like he's not just an empty figurehead and is dipping in to support the footy department with some leadership. We have an experienced CEO. Mahoney's been in the job a while now, if he's up for it he'll get some things done and work with Goodwin to fix some of the gaps in the list, in the coaching structure and in the fitness area. It's not easy to express all of that on a TV show so I'm hardly surprised the claim is 2018 was an aberration.

 

 

What a load of garbage.

  On 23/07/2019 at 03:01, Dr. Gonzo said:

You said every club has injuries but ours this year have impacted our best 22 far more than any other side. Look at Geelong's and Brisbane's injury lists.

Yes i know we got hit hard, so did Richmond and Meth Coke. 

What has worried me more than that, is the skill level of those that were not injured.

Our “elite” midfield and forward line should have taken a lot of heat off the Backline, but this wasn’t even close to happening 

This is the bigger issue for me. I have never seen an AFL side drop it’s skill level, across the board and in one pre season like the 2019 MFC. 

There is far more at play than just the injury list I believe. 

  On 23/07/2019 at 03:48, Demon3 said:

What a load of garbage.

Strong rebuttal.

Did he or did he not play a role in selecting coaches without being a long term commitment?

Did he or did he not coach international rules and some junior teams, tease interest in AFL coaching and then not pursue it? 

It's his life, he can do what he wants, I don't blame him or wish him ill will but his media credentials are as a former champion player and as a good tv personality from his footy show days. He doesn't have a coaching background, doesn't have an administration background to give him some analytical skills or even a recent playing career.

He hasn't actively been involved with an AFL club in anything more than a brief capacity for a long time now. When he commentates games he'll have some decent ideas - man up on good player X, stop kicking it to player Y, run harder, tackle better - and he's usually correct. He's also a professional at knowing when to talk, when to shut up etc. That alone puts him comfortably in the better AFL media personalities, but you rarely watch On the Couch or a Lyon commentated game and come away with greater understanding about the game.

Derm talks crap 90% of the time but he has 10% commentary gold where you can learn something about a player. David King is 95% hyperbole and rubbish stats but every now and then Champion Data slip him a stat that matters. Gaz is perfectly decent but entirely unremarkable. 

  On 22/07/2019 at 11:48, dazzledavey36 said:

Ha!! He is pretty much the cause of it for picking Mark Neeld from the start. He is the reason Roos had to come in and clean up the mess!

 

He had form at the selection table well before that disaster DD

Edited July 23, 20195 yr by Rusty Nails

  On 22/07/2019 at 13:59, WERRIDEE said:

We will see what Melbourne are made of this week. First Goodwin now Lyon. This is a must win game, don't win it and the [censored] may finally hit the fan. 

The season can't end soon enough but I still think we have the capabilities to bounce back but must be a  lot fitter and mentally tougher next year the only problem is there are another 16 teams in the same position with Gold Coast being the exception they are well and truly lost.

I wish the club gave me $20 credit off my membership eveytime we had one of these Werridee.  I would now be able to afford that mega SVS sub that i'm eyeing off on ebay that is presently final nail divorce material.

Edited July 23, 20195 yr by Rusty Nails

  On 23/07/2019 at 02:34, DeeSpencer said:

The criticism of Lyon comes from the fact he (either voluntarily or through coercion) wandered in to the club to have a bit of a dip at selecting coaches without joining the board and doing it properly.

He had the same thing in his coaching career where he dipped the toes in but never put it on the line.

He has nice TV skills but is a relatively lazy caller and panellist. There's little quality to his analysis. Whilst not actively bad like many in the industry he doesn't really seek out anything of interest. No advance stats. No tactical breakdown. 

There's a bunch of reasons we are where we are:

1. Injuries - losing May, Lever and Jetta for half a year screwed the backline and when they come back the best 2 forwards are out.
2. Lack of fitness after going all in for last year
3. A number of traded in players - Lewis, Hibberd, Garlett starting to trail off. By the way, the alternative to bringing in mature players in the Roos years was for the rebuild to take longer and slower and less chance of working. Can't have your cake and eat it too.
4. Recruiting failures in finding outside runners and small forwards - by the way we aren't the only club in that situation
5. Game plan - the advantages we had in 2017 and 2018, maybe even 2016 as well, have been found out. I truly believe our coaches got a lot out of the group in terms of tactics in previous years. Some worked, some didn't but we weren't boring and had a plan.
6. Coaching structure - there's something up with the McCartney situation, the Rawlings back to the forwards from Casey, Rooke etc.

Acting overly emotional doesn't help. We won 10 games in 2016, 12 games in 2017 and plenty of games last year. That's largely without Lever and May, with a very young Oliver, Harmes, Brayshaw, Salem and Petracca, with Jack Viney missing a lot of footy. 

The President seems like he's not just an empty figurehead and is dipping in to support the footy department with some leadership. We have an experienced CEO. Mahoney's been in the job a while now, if he's up for it he'll get some things done and work with Goodwin to fix some of the gaps in the list, in the coaching structure and in the fitness area. It's not easy to express all of that on a TV show so I'm hardly surprised the claim is 2018 was an aberration.

 

 

Agree with most if not all of the above.

With one exception. 

Fair dinkum surely a TV show like On the Couch, which is supposed to be all analysis,  should be able to express the points you make in the post above an hour of TV. But i agree they can't. or more accurately choose not to. 

And that is largely because the footy media in Australia is simply woefiul. Embarrassingly so.  And a big reason is that is predominately made up of ex footballers who are 'stars' and seemingly have no interest in doing any meaningful research to inform their views or don't have the skills to do so or both. So lazy. And Gary is one of the worst in this regard. Not the worst though. BT takes that honor. Follweed by Cameron Ling.

They do have producers though. But they have no interest either it would seem. They are happy enough to serve up ill informed pa wrapped up in the occasion interesting stat they but of champion data and a nice graphic or two.  

I did get a chuckle when they were reeling off their Grand Final tips the start of the season and Roos had to sheepishly admit his tip was Richmond v Melbourne.

  On 23/07/2019 at 04:06, DeeSpencer said:

Strong rebuttal.

Did he or did he not play a role in selecting coaches without being a long term commitment?

Did he or did he not coach international rules and some junior teams, tease interest in AFL coaching and then not pursue it? 

It's his life, he can do what he wants, I don't blame him or wish him ill will but his media credentials are as a former champion player and as a good tv personality from his footy show days. He doesn't have a coaching background, doesn't have an administration background to give him some analytical skills or even a recent playing career.

He hasn't actively been involved with an AFL club in anything more than a brief capacity for a long time now. When he commentates games he'll have some decent ideas - man up on good player X, stop kicking it to player Y, run harder, tackle better - and he's usually correct. He's also a professional at knowing when to talk, when to shut up etc. That alone puts him comfortably in the better AFL media personalities, but you rarely watch On the Couch or a Lyon commentated game and come away with greater understanding about the game.

Derm talks crap 90% of the time but he has 10% commentary gold where you can learn something about a player. David King is 95% hyperbole and rubbish stats but every now and then Champion Data slip him a stat that matters. Gaz is perfectly decent but entirely unremarkable. 

Have to agree with this. Lyon makes his comments purely based off emotional reasoning, e.g. "they showed no fight", and often overlooks the tactical reasons as to why we lost the game. 

  On 23/07/2019 at 04:20, binman said:

Agree with most if not all of the above.

With one exception. 

Fair dinkum surely a TV show like On the Couch, which is supposed to be all analysis,  should be able to express the points you make in the post above an hour of TV. But i agree they can't. or more accurately choose not to. 

And that is largely because the footy media in Australia is simply woefiul. Embarrassingly so.  And a big reason is that is predominately made up of ex footballers who are 'stars' and seemingly have no interest in doing any meaningful research to inform their views or don't have the skills to do so or both. So lazy. And Gary is one of the worst in this regard. Not the worst though. BT takes that honor. Follweed by Cameron Ling.

They do have producers though. But they have no interest either it would seem. They are happy enough to serve up ill informed pa wrapped up in the occasion interesting stat they but of champion data and a nice graphic or two.  

I agree. On the Couch has potential and moments of quality but so much of it is awful. Healy absolutely nailed the Weagles Web a few years ago but most of the time craps on about the same rule changes and his favourite players, he doesn't have great hosting skills to get the most out of his colleagues. 

I warm to Jono Brown but he's a waste, even his good ideas get served up in mangled English. Roos is underutilised when it comes to his expertise in leadership and coaching, he's allowed to skate by without really producing an opinion. I've already said what I've said on Lyon who's probably the best of the guys on that show but doesn't offer a whole lot. 

  On 23/07/2019 at 04:20, binman said:

Agree with most if not all of the above.

With one exception. 

Fair dinkum surely a TV show like On the Couch, which is supposed to be all analysis,  should be able to express the points you make in the post above an hour of TV. But i agree they can't. or more accurately choose not to. 

And that is largely because the footy media in Australia is simply woefiul. Embarrassingly so.  And a big reason is that is predominately made up of ex footballers who are 'stars' and seemingly have no interest in doing any meaningful research to inform their views or don't have the skills to do so or both. So lazy. And Gary is one of the worst in this regard. Not the worst though. BT takes that honor. Follweed by Cameron Ling.

They do have producers though. But they have no interest either it would seem. They are happy enough to serve up ill informed pa wrapped up in the occasion interesting stat they but of champion data and a nice graphic or two.  

Your point about the AFL media landscape as a whole is definitely valid. It is by and large embarrassingly shallow in its coverage, partly because they need to cater to a broad audience so everything gets dumbed down. You have to be near brain dead to gain anything at all from watching a show like “Talking Footy”.

Regarding OTC specifically, the mix of panelists at the moment isn’t ideal. Of the four that are there, I’m not entirely sure who the technical expert is meant to be. Healy is the host. Roos gives insight from a coaching perspective. That leaves Lyon and Brown, neither of whom seem to fit the bill. I’m not David King’s biggest fan but he at least puts some effort into studying the game and it shows.

All that said, someone at OTC pulls out the odd interesting nugget. The whole debate around the pitfalls of always moving the ball on quickly stemmed from a OTC segment which identified Melbourne as being the fastest team to play on, while the top 8 sides, bar GWS, all sat at the other end of the spectrum. So it is a worthwhile watch in that regard. Sometimes the discussion is rushed and somewhat shallow due to time constraints, but overall it is head and shoulders above other panel shows.

As to DS’s post, whilst it is all factual, there is still the chance that it’s all just excuses for a team that’s been shown up. That remains a possibility. We will likely know one way or the other by the be mid point of next season 

  On 23/07/2019 at 01:57, Moonshadow said:

Frost, Fritter, Hunt, Melk, Trac, Hore (albeit only 1 season)

Injuries may have stopped others.

I'd add Melksham, ANB - he was terrific last year - Hunt - much better this year - and Petty to that list.

  On 23/07/2019 at 03:54, Sir Why You Little said:

Yes i know we got hit hard, so did Richmond and Meth Coke. 

What has worried me more than that, is the skill level of those that were not injured.

Our “elite” midfield and forward line should have taken a lot of heat off the Backline, but this wasn’t even close to happening 

This is the bigger issue for me. I have never seen an AFL side drop it’s skill level, across the board and in one pre season like the 2019 MFC. 

There is far more at play than just the injury list I believe. 

Totally agree.

Almost choked on my beer when Campbell Brown said the good news is it's any easy fix to get the connection and delivery into our forward line working!

Not for us

  On 23/07/2019 at 01:33, Moonshadow said:

Fence sitting on the fence???

The pain of watching this team far exceeds the potentiality of this!!

I mean read my post, Unless I see some improvement.

I havent got wads of cash to waste on a team that has been stagnating for 55 years.

Or is the view out there, spend on the Tattslotto Principle, coz thats about the size of it at present!

One Day, One Day!!!

Edited July 23, 20195 yr by picket fence

  On 23/07/2019 at 03:33, Wiseblood said:

Jack Watts.

A great example of the FD offloading a highly skilled player (what we need right now) and retaining players "with a competitive edge" (like AnB) who actually costs us games of football. 

  On 23/07/2019 at 04:06, DeeSpencer said:

Strong rebuttal.

Did he or did he not play a role in selecting coaches without being a long term commitment?

He reluctantly agreed to do a job that he had very openly said he wasn't qualified for because his dying best mate asked him to.

Honestly, pull your head in. That's a horrible thing to criticize someone for.

  On 23/07/2019 at 05:45, Lord Nev said:

He reluctantly agreed to do a job that he had very openly said he wasn't qualified for because his dying best mate asked him to.

Honestly, pull your head in. That's a horrible thing to criticize someone for.

It's not meant to be a shot at his character, in my initial post I mentioned there was coercive factors. The reality is he's had a chance to commit to the admin of the club, had a chance to go down a coaching route and is an unexceptional media performer. 

If he wants to be upset with the club that's fine but I don't particularly care for his opinion as anything more than a fan and past player.

Thankfully he isn't at the Tim Watson stage of rocking the boat from a distance.

  On 23/07/2019 at 02:14, Wiseblood said:

Hunt is a funny one.

He had his best season in 2017 during Goodwin's first season at the helm, and then had his drop off in 2018 before returning to the Hunt of old, to an extent, this year.

Some will see his 2017 season as a product of his growth from the Roos years, others might see it as further progression under Goodwin.  I think there is a little bit of truth to both.

funny that Hunt had an injury interrupted year in 2018 and his from dropped. He has been injury free in 2019 and his from is back to 2018 levels?????

  On 23/07/2019 at 06:26, DeeSpencer said:

It's not meant to be a shot at his character, in my initial post I mentioned there was coercive factors. The reality is he's had a chance to commit to the admin of the club, had a chance to go down a coaching route and is an unexceptional media performer. 

If he wants to be upset with the club that's fine but I don't particularly care for his opinion as anything more than a fan and past player.

Thankfully he isn't at the Tim Watson stage of rocking the boat from a distance.

He's always said he doesn't have the skills to be a coach or administrator, why is it so many Dees fans get all upset at Lyon? Plenty of former captains of our club aren't involved, and I've seen Garry at training more than Neitz, McDonald, Grimes and Healy combined.

He IS a fan and a past player, that's why he hurts like we do when the club is struggling so badly. I don't understand why he gets singled out for this kind of treatment from fans when there's plenty of former players out there who don't have 1% of the passion for the club that he does.

  On 23/07/2019 at 06:45, Lord Nev said:

He IS a fan and a past player, that's why he hurts like we do when the club is struggling so badly. I don't understand why he gets singled out for this kind of treatment from fans when there's plenty of former players out there who don't have 1% of the passion for the club that he does.

Because some supporters on this site simply can't handle cold hard criticism directed at the club, not least from a past player.

It cuts at them and so they become triggered and feel the best way of handling the truth is to say things like, "yeh well Garry Lyon appointed Neeld so he doesn't know n e thingggg".

Not sure that's quite true Lord Nev.
Lyon just has a higher profile in the media than most which allows his opinions to be aired.

Edited July 23, 20195 yr by Fork 'em

  On 23/07/2019 at 07:00, Fork 'em said:

Not sure that's quite true Lord Nev.
Lyon just has a higher profile in the media than most which allows his opinions to be aired.

Sorry mate, which bit do you mean?

  On 23/07/2019 at 06:59, stevethemanjordan said:

Because some supporters on this site simply can't handle cold hard criticism directed at the club, not least from a past player.

It cuts at them and so they become triggered and feel the best way of handling the truth is to say things like, "yeh well Garry Lyon appointed Neeld so he doesn't know n e thingggg".

Agree with the thrust of this.

We may criticise a commentator for what he says, but in his analysis he highlighted why we have gone "backwards". And there were many on this forum (Demonland) who would have to agree , because you have expressed it.

Paul Roos also highlighted that a small difference e.g. 5% can be the difference between success and failure. ONe thing i9s that at no stage this year have our players not shown a high level of effort, skill execution down maybe !! The Set shots for goal have been like an albatross around our necks and have expoede us many many times this season. We can talk about the coaches, but it is ultimaterly up to the players.

However things have not been right since they got rid ofJack and dropped Oscar.

HONESTLY HOPE THAT WE USE OUR DRAFT PICK RATHER THAN TRADE !!! Because I am positive about the future .

I blame the camp.....

  On 22/07/2019 at 20:25, praha said:

aberration = break away from norm.

Average finishing position 2014-2017 = 12th

2018 finishing position = 4th

2019 finishing position = 14th-17th

Completely reasonable to call 2018 an aberration. There is absolutely no evidence to suggest it wasnt.

Um... year on year...

Wins: +3, +3, +2, +2

Ladder position: +4, +2, +2 +4

Looks like a pattern being continued to me.

Honestly your false logic and misuse of stats sound like they came from the national society for climate change denial.

  On 22/07/2019 at 23:48, Mel Bourne said:

Surely you’re not suggesting this season was an improvement on last year’s? 

The claim by others (including the ever-reliable and wise Garry Lyon) is that 2018 is the aberration. The evidence is that it was not, but rather part of a rolling pattern of improvement. Possibly overperformance on account of two runs of sensational form and hitting a couple of 'suitable' finals opponents, but only in the realms of 'pleasant surprise', not 'wild and wacky amazeballs'.

Given the circumstances of this season I'm completely comfortable calling 2019 the aberration. Wouldn't mind putting it in the same aberration basket as Richmond's 2016, Geelong's 2003, Hawthorn's 2009, Port's 2000, Sydney's 2009, West Coast's 2013, Brisbane's 1998, Essendon's 1997, or Collingwood's 2005.

I honestly wonder if there has even been a single premiership won in the last 30 years by a club which had not gone through an unexpected slump just before. Oh, Hawthorn's surprise 2008 premiership, which was funnily enough immediately followed by an unexpected slump.

Thing's went to all kind of crap this year, for sure. But frankly anyone who now wants to wallow in self-pity so completely that they feel a need to write off 2018 as meaningless needs to get their MFCSS medication checked. Including Garry Lyon.

Anyway, the argument is simple: there's a much stronger case to say 2019 is an aberration than there is to say 2018 was.

Injuries are a poor excuse The pies injury list is:

  Anton Tohill
  Ben Reid
  Christopher Mayne
  Daniel Wells
  Darcy Moore
  Dayne Beams
  Jaidyn Stephenson
  James Aish
  Jamie Elliott
Jeremy Howe
  John Noble
  Josh Thomas
  Levi Greenwood
  Lynden Dunn
  Nathan Murphy
  Samuel Murray
Scott Pendlebury
  Tom Langdon
  Will Kelly
 

They have had injuries all year. They aren't playing well at the moment but they put us to shame with their effort