The healthy ego of Paul Roos and our current plight.

[TGR 1,367]

With the demise of Melbourne over the past month, it is interesting to hear Roos' take on it.  He never ever ever brings up the lack of outside speed.  Matthews had to state the bleeding obvious to him on AW yesterday.  If he was to refer to our achilles heel, it would actually make him a touch more responsible for the current plight.  So he doesn't.  He will refer to anything but including: elite effort, pre-season conditioning, and anything else.  He will bring up May, and the way the group returned from pre-season.  He will bring up that the 'team isn't obviously doing what Goodwin wants them to do', rather than questioning the coach and the brand...because obviously Roos was king-maker.

 

I am a big Roos fan, and I often lauded his handing of trades.  But gee wiz, Howe is the best intercept defender in the game; yet Goody sells the farm in a super-draft to get a bloke that basicallly did what Jason Cloke did in his first years.  Dunn was a solid KPP, which forced us to trade for May (who I think will be good anyway).  Roos refuses to question the Josh Kelly for Tyson/Salem, which I could understand at the time, as Neeldy decimated our list and we probably needed 2 B+'s rather than 1 A grader.

Roos has repeatedly said that Melbourne look better with Garlett, Frost and Kent in the team; yet 2 of these were clearly under-valued by Goodwin in the latter part of last year.

 

Trading out of the super-draft was crazy.  Stack didn't even make the super-draft!  That's how good the draft is.  Adelaide have a future thanks to good old Melbourne.

 

Roosy took the bows after the MCG finals in 2018, but I think he has to be a tad more accountable.  He single-handedly chose Goody, who has made some weird decisions including the worst coaching performance I have seen versus the Saints  in the past fortnight.  If we wanted leadership, a slow team needed a leader with speed.  I said at the time that if leadership was so poor at Melbourne (which I think was overrated and self-fulfilling), don't get the slowest player in the game in Lewis, but rather go for Brent Harvey.  We have had some horrible sliding door trading under Goody, and have seen the worst coaching performance in my time. [Insert positive] Surely, it is all trending up from here.

 

Roosy had a big hand in making us a slow team, off-loading some valuable talent; as well as the choice of who will be king.  In times of gloom, I don't think you will hear or see Roosy with dirty fingers.  I like the man, but gee he is a tad teflon.

 

 

 

[Forest Demon 4,681]

I noticed this as well on the couch one night a few weeks back. When the others were talking about our lack of spread and outside run, he effectively said while it wasn't our strength, it certainly wasn't a weakness.

[dazzledavey36 48,718]

I love Roosy and for what he did for this club.

But the decision to banish lynden Dunn to the reserves for pretty much a whole year back in 2016 for a inexperienced Oscar McDonald in my eyes is one of the biggest blunders he did. The way he was treated in his last year was just perplexing. 

 

[Sir Why You Little 34,436]

Roos needed to stick around for at least 2-3 years longer than he did, even part time

The fact that he didn’t has the club exactly where it is...

[John Demonic 4,796]

15 minutes ago, dazzledavey36 said:

I love Roosy and for what he did for this club.

But the decision to banish lynden Dunn to the reserves for pretty much a whole year back in 2016 for a inexperienced Oscar McDonald in my eyes is one of the biggest blunders he did. The way he was treated in his last year was just perplexing. 

 

You could say he torpedo'd him out of the club..

[TGR 1,367]

2 minutes ago, Sir Why You Little said:

Roos needed to stick around for at least 2-3 years longer than he did, even part time

The fact that he didn’t has the club exactly where it is...

Disagree.  We came begging.  Credit to Roos in that he was/is a man of his word, unlike Malthouse.  The club and the supporters knew exactly where he was at.

 

Irony was that some on here wanted Goody to take over before Roos was out the door!

[TGR 1,367]

4 minutes ago, John Demonic said:

You could say he torpedo'd him out of the club..

Has anyone got footage of the torpedo kick-out crime?  Obviously the ball came back over poor Dunn's head in quick time.

[JV7 2,339]

Gees everyone is really looking behind every door to find someone to blame.

Roos built a game on hard nosed, contested football which stands up in finals. I constantly remember him using Fremantle at their best pre Melbourne of having "big bodied mids of Fye/Mundy/Barlow" which we similarly went down that path with Oliver & Brayshaw. Most premiership sides & final sides are good contested teams which we were last year.

As we all know Roos taught us how to defend first before slowly adding in how to attack & defend. We had the right balance towards the end of last year & during the finals we were tougher to score against but could also score heavily. For whatever reason we first lost our defensive mindset & it was costing us, now we've had to focus on defend because we were just bleeding goals so we saw Wednesday night how our attacking & scoring was effected. We wont know without been inside the club what has turned for us to fall away but it could be a combination of the off season surgeries, slight tinker with the game plan, poor player mindset, 6-6-6, sides doing more homework on us, all these little things add up to the perfect storm. 

Roos left 2 and bit seasons ago, a lot has changed since. He isn't the reason we are in this current state. We will ride this out & I have faith Goodwin & this group will turn it around if not by seasons end then next year

 

[DeeSpencer 23,124]

15 minutes ago, dazzledavey36 said:

I love Roosy and for what he did for this club.

But the decision to banish lynden Dunn to the reserves for pretty much a whole year back in 2016 for a inexperienced Oscar McDonald in my eyes is one of the biggest blunders he did. The way he was treated in his last year was just perplexing. 

 

I somewhat agree, although Dunn was fat as a house and couldn't run. Had a few personal issues that summer I'm led to believe. And now his career is likely over. The lack of development of key backs - Frost and Oscar and otherwise - under Roos and since remains an issue. We should've stocked up on plenty of talls and had them come through the pipeline. Not superstars, just solid defenders.

I'm also concerned Oscar and ANB were very Roos picks instead of going for talent. And somehow one of the great rebounding tall defenders of all time couldn't convince Jeremy Howe he was a defender, nor value his game. If Howe stays we never chase Lever.

There's also the cost of bringing in guys like Hibberd, Melk, Garlett, Bugg, Vince etc to get instant improvement - much needed but has cost us valuable picks now.

 

 

[Sir Why You Little 34,436]

3 minutes ago, TGR said:

Disagree.  We came begging.  Credit to Roos in that he was/is a man of his word, unlike Malthouse.  The club and the supporters knew exactly where he was at.

 

Irony was that some on here wanted Goody to take over before Roos was out the door!

I am not dissing Roosy. 

All i am saying is the job was half done and we can see the results of that now

[DeeSpencer 23,124]

Just now, JV7 said:

Gees everyone is really looking behind every door to find someone to blame.

Roos built a game on hard nosed, contested football which stands up in finals. I constantly remember him using Fremantle at their best pre Melbourne of having "big bodied mids of Fye/Mundy/Barlow" which we similarly went down that path with Oliver & Brayshaw. Most premiership sides & final sides are good contested teams which we were last year.

As we all know Roos taught us how to defend first before slowly adding in how to attack & defend. We had the right balance towards the end of last year & during the finals we were tougher to score against but could also score heavily. For whatever reason we first lost our defensive mindset & it was costing us, now we've had to focus on defend because we were just bleeding goals so we saw Wednesday night how our attacking & scoring was effected. We wont know without been inside the club what has turned for us to fall away but it could be a combination of the off season surgeries, slight tinker with the game plan, poor player mindset, 6-6-6, sides doing more homework on us, all these little things add up to the perfect storm. 

Roos left 2 and bit seasons ago, a lot has changed since. He isn't the reason we are in this current state. We will ride this out & I have faith Goodwin & this group will turn it around if not by seasons end then next year

 

The game changed and big bodied crash and bash mids are now too slow to play in the same side as each other.

The defend before attack line was straight PR. We didn't know how to defend under Roos, we just flooded back and took the pace out of games. Our midfield worked very hard defensive and took down some big names but it wasn't a consistent defensive strategy.

It was when Goodwin took over for round 23 2015 and 2016 that we finally added some zone defending and became a team playing proper AFL football with a 2 way focus.

I'm not a Roos basher. He did phenomenally well in a tough gig. I just don't buy his catch phrases.

[Scoop Junior 2,963]

Really?

Do we need reminding of the state of the football club just prior to Roos taking over?

We had just gone through two failed rebuilds, had come off a season where we won 2 games with a percentage of 50%, were getting absolutely belted week in week out, had very little talent on the list, had been right down the bottom for 7 years (save for some flashes of good footy in 2010 and 2011), were considered a basket case on and off the field and even the most loyal fans were struggling to have any hope for the future. The culture was a mess, no one wanted to play for us, good players wanted to leave...it was an out-and-out shambles.

Five years later we have improved every year and got within one game of a Grand Final last year with a young and talented list. If anyone was offered that during the 2013 pre-season they would have grabbed it before finishing the sentence. We may be struggling at the moment but surely it's fairer to look at the incremental improvement over 5 years from 2014-2018 than a 6-round sample size.

I shudder to think where we would be as a club without the input of Roos, PJ and others from 2014 onwards. Would we even have a club to support?

This thread is nit-picking at its finest. Of course there may have been the odd decision-making error along the way, but that happens at all clubs. Looking at it in its entirety, Roos did an absolutely sensational job of steering this club away from extinction and onto the path towards being a respected team in the competition.

 

[praha 10,270]

Maybe it's because Roos doesn't value or weigh speed as all that important a factor? Like, is speed really what's killing us right now? It didn't hurt as against Geelong last year despite Dangerfield and Ablett both playing. We consistently gave midfields a right old pasting.

Everyone says "the game has changed" whenever we find ourselves in a slump. It's such [censored]. The same fundamentals and philosophies are still relevant. Last year when it mattered (for the most part) we played like a champion team. To start the year we are playing like a team of wannabe champions, Hollywood-esque kicks and handballs, cute marking and disposal attempts that put teammates under pressure.

Maybe we need to start looking at the likes of Jones, Viney, Gawn etc., the "older" brigade that was around during the Neeld eras, and now leads the team. We aren't just in a slump right now: we are witnessing a colossal breakdown.

Who remembers Carlton in the early 2000s? Going into I think it was 2003, or maybe 2002, they'd come from a finals campaign and looked set to really challenge for a flag. They finished last and started more than a decade of mediocrity that is still underway.

IMO, we look more like that Carlton team, than we do Geelong of 2006, or Richmond of 2016. If anyone really thinks our lack of speed is what is causing such a colossal breakdown, you need to look at the bigger picture.

We have perennial losers still leading this team. Once the going gets tough, FORGET ABOUT IT!

[Lucifers Hero 37,006]

1 hour ago, TGR said:

With the demise of Melbourne over the past month, it is interesting to hear Roos' take on it.  He never ever ever brings up the lack of outside speed.  Matthews had to state the bleeding obvious to him on AW yesterday.  If he was to refer to our achilles heel, it would actually make him a touch more responsible for the current plight.  So he doesn't.  He will refer to anything but including: elite effort, pre-season conditioning, and anything else.  He will bring up May, and the way the group returned from pre-season.  He will bring up that the 'team isn't obviously doing what Goodwin wants them to do', rather than questioning the coach and the brand...because obviously Roos was king-maker.

 

I am a big Roos fan, and I often lauded his handing of trades.  But gee wiz, Howe is the best intercept defender in the game; yet Goody sells the farm in a super-draft to get a bloke that basicallly did what Jason Cloke did in his first years.  Dunn was a solid KPP, which forced us to trade for May (who I think will be good anyway).  Roos refuses to question the Josh Kelly for Tyson/Salem, which I could understand at the time, as Neeldy decimated our list and we probably needed 2 B+'s rather than 1 A grader.

Roos has repeatedly said that Melbourne look better with Garlett, Frost and Kent in the team; yet 2 of these were clearly under-valued by Goodwin in the latter part of last year.

 

Trading out of the super-draft was crazy.  Stack didn't even make the super-draft!  That's how good the draft is.  Adelaide have a future thanks to good old Melbourne.

 

Roosy took the bows after the MCG finals in 2018, but I think he has to be a tad more accountable.  He single-handedly chose Goody, who has made some weird decisions including the worst coaching performance I have seen versus the Saints  in the past fortnight.  If we wanted leadership, a slow team needed a leader with speed.  I said at the time that if leadership was so poor at Melbourne (which I think was overrated and self-fulfilling), don't get the slowest player in the game in Lewis, but rather go for Brent Harvey.  We have had some horrible sliding door trading under Goody, and have seen the worst coaching performance in my time. [Insert positive] Surely, it is all trending up from here.

 

Roosy had a big hand in making us a slow team, off-loading some valuable talent; as well as the choice of who will be king.  In times of gloom, I don't think you will hear or see Roosy with dirty fingers.  I like the man, but gee he is a tad teflon.

Maybe we should sack Roos!   Oh, wait...

I can't believe people are revisiting his tenure.  A few facts:

• Most of our list have been recruited under Goodwin's watch (Roos let him have a major say in 2015 and he wasn't there for 2016, 2017, 2018) or were on the list pre-Roos.  
• I count 12 players on our list recruited during Roos time and most of them played in the Prelim and are currently best 22.   None of them slow, in fact include our fastest:  Hunt, Frost and Gartlett
• Goodwin has hand picked his assistant coaching staff.
• Roos didn't single handedly choose Goodwin.  Roos had hardly heard of him -Viney brought him into the club.  Roos' hand-picked choice was Dew.
• Our current game plan of high zones, forward half etc are nothing like Roos' defence first/back shoulder game plan.  I'm not saying one is better just saying we can't hold Roos responsible for how we currently play. 
• There were good reasons for letting Howe and Dunn go like there were for letting Hogan and Watts go.  Anyway, Goodwin was part of the decision making to let Howe and Dunn go.
• Who has Goodwin recruited with speed?

If folks want to complain about the list maybe look at Todd Viney and to a lesser extent Jason Taylor.  I see a lot more players in the image of TV/SG contested beasts.

We aren't travelling well but as supporters we need to stop dredging up all sorts of history that means nothing now and blaming anyone who has been at the club.

 

Edited April 26, 2019 by Lucifer's Hero

[DeeSpencer 23,124]

Our 3 biggest issues:

1. Fitness and injuries: The club has hinted at times about reviewing the fitness program but never made a move on Misson

2. Skill development: Roos oversaw most of the current assistant coach appointments

3. List management: keeping over the hill veterans and cloggers, not enough focus on speed and run. Why? Probably because Roos and Goodwin have been so insistent on contested ball rather than take chances on kids with upside. Josh Mahoney in charge of the footy department rather than the initial plan of Roos getting an experienced head to stay on after he went. I can't imagine Neil Balme being pleased with the way we play at the moment, I think he would've done wonders getting Goody and the recruiting team on a path to success.

Roos' legacy was meant to be using his knowledge and connections to train up a coaching and football department. As it stands Neeld bought in Jason Taylor, Misson and reassigned Mahoney and all 3 have probably done a good job on the whole but have hit some troubled waters of late. The main Roos appointment left is Ben Matthews as the midfield coach.

[Lucifers Hero 37,006]

47 minutes ago, DeeSpencer said:

Our 3 biggest issues:

1. Fitness and injuries: The club has hinted at times about reviewing the fitness program but never made a move on Misson

2. Skill development: Roos oversaw most of the current assistant coach appointments.  Not correct, The only Roos appointed coach is Matthews.  (McCartney was brought in at Goodwin's request).   He brought in Plapp for Casey.

3. List management: keeping over the hill veterans and cloggers, I thought Roos cleaned out the list for Goodwin eg Dawes, Grimes, Sylvia, etc etc not enough focus on speed and run. Roos brought in our current fastest players:  Hunt, Garlett, Frost.  Why? Probably because Roos and Goodwin have been so insistent on contested ball rather than take chances on kids with upside. Josh Mahoney in charge of the footy department rather than the initial plan of Roos getting an experienced head to stay on after he went.  No, Mahoney was made GM Football by Jackson not long after his arrival.   Roos' charter was to find a coach not a Football Manager.  I can't imagine Neil Balme being pleased with the way we play at the moment, I think he would've done wonders getting Goody and the recruiting team on a path to success.  This is quite different

Roos' legacy was meant to be using his knowledge and connections to train up a coaching and football department. As it stands Neeld bought in Jason Taylor, Misson and reassigned Mahoney As stated above Jackson appointed Mahoney to GM Football and all 3 have probably done a good job on the whole but have hit some troubled waters of late. The main Roos appointment left is Ben Matthews as the midfield coach.

Have put comments in red.

Not aimed at you DeeS but there is quite a bit of incorrect or rewriting of history in this thread.  I make the above commetns in the hope stuff in this thread doesn't become folklore/fact. 

Edited April 26, 2019 by Lucifer's Hero

[bush demon 1,883]

1 hour ago, TGR said:

With the demise of Melbourne over the past month, it is interesting to hear Roos' take on it.  He never ever ever brings up the lack of outside speed.  Matthews had to state the bleeding obvious to him on AW yesterday.  If he was to refer to our achilles heel, it would actually make him a touch more responsible for the current plight.  So he doesn't.  He will refer to anything but including: elite effort, pre-season conditioning, and anything else.  He will bring up May, and the way the group returned from pre-season.  He will bring up that the 'team isn't obviously doing what Goodwin wants them to do', rather than questioning the coach and the brand...because obviously Roos was king-maker.

 

I am a big Roos fan, and I often lauded his handing of trades.  But gee wiz, Howe is the best intercept defender in the game; yet Goody sells the farm in a super-draft to get a bloke that basicallly did what Jason Cloke did in his first years.  Dunn was a solid KPP, which forced us to trade for May (who I think will be good anyway).  Roos refuses to question the Josh Kelly for Tyson/Salem, which I could understand at the time, as Neeldy decimated our list and we probably needed 2 B+'s rather than 1 A grader.

Roos has repeatedly said that Melbourne look better with Garlett, Frost and Kent in the team; yet 2 of these were clearly under-valued by Goodwin in the latter part of last year.

 

Trading out of the super-draft was crazy.  Stack didn't even make the super-draft!  That's how good the draft is.  Adelaide have a future thanks to good old Melbourne.

 

Roosy took the bows after the MCG finals in 2018, but I think he has to be a tad more accountable.  He single-handedly chose Goody, who has made some weird decisions including the worst coaching performance I have seen versus the Saints  in the past fortnight.  If we wanted leadership, a slow team needed a leader with speed.  I said at the time that if leadership was so poor at Melbourne (which I think was overrated and self-fulfilling), don't get the slowest player in the game in Lewis, but rather go for Brent Harvey.  We have had some horrible sliding door trading under Goody, and have seen the worst coaching performance in my time. [Insert positive] Surely, it is all trending up from here.

 

Roosy had a big hand in making us a slow team, off-loading some valuable talent; as well as the choice of who will be king.  In times of gloom, I don't think you will hear or see Roosy with dirty fingers.  I like the man, but gee he is a tad teflon.

 

 

 

Your time on the internet...LOL

[Cards13 9,117]

He should have stayed if he wanted the team in his image. It’s up to Goody and co now. 

[Moonshadow 16,164]

22 minutes ago, DeeSpencer said:

Our 3 biggest issues:

1. Fitness and injuries: The club has hinted at times about reviewing the fitness program but never made a move on Misson

2. Skill development: Roos oversaw most of the current assistant coach appointments

3. List management: keeping over the hill veterans and cloggers, not enough focus on speed and run. Why? Probably because Roos and Goodwin have been so insistent on contested ball rather than take chances on kids with upside. Josh Mahoney in charge of the footy department rather than the initial plan of Roos getting an experienced head to stay on after he went. I can't imagine Neil Balme being pleased with the way we play at the moment, I think he would've done wonders getting Goody and the recruiting team on a path to success.

Roos' legacy was meant to be using his knowledge and connections to train up a coaching and football department. As it stands Neeld bought in Jason Taylor, Misson and reassigned Mahoney and all 3 have probably done a good job on the whole but have hit some troubled waters of late. The main Roos appointment left is Ben Matthews as the midfield coach.

I'd add club culture to your list of issues.

[Ugottobekidding 915]

Nothing too much to be worried about... just need to play smarter football. Once lever and may are ready,  the structure of our team will change dramatically.

Speed is good but speed between the ears is more important. I guess we did fall into a trap where we built a team arround stoppages.

Mind you, players need to run and take on ths game and take more risks.

Edited April 26, 2019 by Ugottobekidding

[Ugottobekidding 915]

5 minutes ago, Moonshadow said:

I'd add club culture to your list of issues.

BALME is overated.

[sisso 2,388]

Speed isn’t as big an issue as our team getting beaten in contested and uncontested ball every week, without even mentioning our deplorable decision making and ball use....while we could do with more pace there is no way the current side should be playing as badly as it is, and a few quicker players won’t help until we start getting the fundamentals of the game right again.

[jumbo returns 6,488]

He was an incredible influence on this club

I would have loved to see him stay to finish the job, but alas....

Goodwin just continues his own perplexing path that has everyone baffled

Only a flag will suffice now

[Forest Demon 4,681]

The start of the OP was more about his current comments in the media when talking about us, which are equal parts insightful and stubborn IMO.

As for talking about the past and his time at the club, he got some decisions wrong, but it's impossible to strike at 100%. He did wonders and set us on the right track. My only concern about his tenure is the biggest decision of them all...his successor.

[Wrecker45 3,378]

1 hour ago, Scoop Junior said:

Really?

Do we need reminding of the state of the football club just prior to Roos taking over?

We had just gone through two failed rebuilds, had come off a season where we won 2 games with a percentage of 50%, were getting absolutely belted week in week out, had very little talent on the list, had been right down the bottom for 7 years (save for some flashes of good footy in 2010 and 2011), were considered a basket case on and off the field and even the most loyal fans were struggling to have any hope for the future. The culture was a mess, no one wanted to play for us, good players wanted to leave...it was an out-and-out shambles.

Five years later we have improved every year and got within one game of a Grand Final last year with a young and talented list. If anyone was offered that during the 2013 pre-season they would have grabbed it before finishing the sentence. We may be struggling at the moment but surely it's fairer to look at the incremental improvement over 5 years from 2014-2018 than a 6-round sample size.

I shudder to think where we would be as a club without the input of Roos, PJ and others from 2014 onwards. Would we even have a club to support?

This thread is nit-picking at its finest. Of course there may have been the odd decision-making error along the way, but that happens at all clubs. Looking at it in its entirety, Roos did an absolutely sensational job of steering this club away from extinction and onto the path towards being a respected team in the competition.

 

If there was a button to emphatically like a would be tapping it.

Edited April 26, 2019 by Wrecker45