I saw this article.  Shows we are a work in progress.  The ability to them to jam us up and destroy our forward entry was evident on the weekend.  The review would be interesting this week - it seems we have a lot of 'external review' of our gameplan, and if we fail to learn from it, we deserve what we get.  We have to learn to respond, and to hold our own structures for our own benefit - not get sucked into their plans.  Seems that this change, made after qtr time, made a significant impact.

"

Melbourne constantly bombed the ball to Hawthorn's defence which outnumbered the Demons' forward line, allowing the Hawks' disciplined backline to repel with conviction.

Puzzlingly, Melbourne did not attempt to even up the disparity in its forward half and largely kept the same structure until the Demons moved Sam Frost into attack in the final term. That left Jesse Hogan to battle against two or three Hawks defenders.

Coaching in his 27th match (his 26th at Melbourne, after a single game at Essendon in 2013), Goodwin would have learned plenty from Hawthorn and master coach Clarkson about picking the right time to make a tactical move from the box."

 

- Dumb coaching from Goodwin

7 minutes ago, SFebey said:

 

- Dumb coaching from Goodwin

I'd say it's stubborn, not dumb, coaching from Goodwin.  They would have trained with these structures all summer and it would be hard to just chuck it all in at the sign of a problem.  They tried to rectify it in the last term but by then it was too late.  

It's just as bad to constantly change a structure as it is to just stick with it.  Seeing what is occurring and make the correct changes is hard to learn.  Clarkson has been doing it for 15 years - when he saw what was wrong in the first term, he tweaked a few things and it made a huge difference.  Goodwin is clearly still learning to do the same thing in just his second season and, as the last paragraph states, would have learned plenty from the weekend.

His challenge now, and the hope for us supporters, is that he has learned from it now.  No doubt he was thoroughly out coached on the weekend and he needs to learn quickly how to respond when the momentum turns, but the positive is that he CAN learn from it and he CAN work with the players to make things better.

41 minutes ago, Wiseblood said:

I'd say it's stubborn, not dumb, coaching from Goodwin.  They would have trained with these structures all summer and it would be hard to just chuck it all in at the sign of a problem.  They tried to rectify it in the last term but by then it was too late.  

It's just as bad to constantly change a structure as it is to just stick with it.  Seeing what is occurring and make the correct changes is hard to learn.  Clarkson has been doing it for 15 years - when he saw what was wrong in the first term, he tweaked a few things and it made a huge difference.  Goodwin is clearly still learning to do the same thing in just his second season and, as the last paragraph states, would have learned plenty from the weekend.

His challenge now, and the hope for us supporters, is that he has learned from it now.  No doubt he was thoroughly out coached on the weekend and he needs to learn quickly how to respond when the momentum turns, but the positive is that he CAN learn from it and he CAN work with the players to make things better.

Totally agree and yes, I think stubbornness is his biggest issue.

Both dumb and stubborn.

Either he needs to crack down on players during a game who continually bomb the ball inside without thought or immediately make a move to help stop the opposition pinging the ball back the other way at the speed of light.

It's one two things.

Not hope that the players will magically start kicking inside forward 50 with care and thought after goal number 5 in a row conceded.

No point coaching a system all summer that doesn’t work. 

Sunday proves that hands down

Dumb and Stubborn i say (and dangerous for 2018) 

Stuff can be changed to save this year, but does Goodwin have it in him?

Maybe dumb. Maybe stubborn. But don't discount the experience differential. Goodwin was coaching his 27th game versus Clarkson's 309th. If players didn't age physically, we would expect a player with over 300 games experience to be able to overcome one in his second year.

It's an interesting article and shows how important structures are. What I can never tell on the day though, is which coach is being proactive and which reactive. 

While the tactical moves are important we got smashed because we didnt work hard enough to win the ball and find space and we didnt work hard enough to shut down Hawthorns run.  There are issues with our backline working as a cohesive unit which have caused us to cough up easy goals and we have been poor in convertong from inside 50 entries but to say our gameplan is fundamemtally flawed is a gross over exaggeration.

They said on the telecast that Hawks are the best 2nd quarter team as Clarko sees what they throw at him and he adjusts.

It's a huge problem the needs to be fixed asap or we might as well kiss another season good bye.

4 hours ago, stevethemanjordan said:

Both dumb and stubborn.

Either he needs to crack down on players during a game who continually bomb the ball inside without thought or immediately make a move to help stop the opposition pinging the ball back the other way at the speed of light.

It's one two things.

Not hope that the players will magically start kicking inside forward 50 with care and thought after goal number 5 in a row conceded.

LOW IQ  FOR ME

Most unimpressive coach in the game

5 hours ago, Sir Why You Little said:

No point coaching a system all summer that doesn’t work. 

Sunday proves that hands down

Dumb and Stubborn i say (and dangerous for 2018) 

Stuff can be changed to save this year, but does Goodwin have it in him?

so Richmond, Essendon etc etc will have watched that too and guess what will happen straight away next Tuesday night if we play our usual structure.

They'll apply them same tactics as the hawks did.

Massive challenge for the coaching staff and the playing group.

wadda we gonna do?????

interesting when a game plan can be picked apart so effectively.

oh and great to see articles like this with some great analysis and vision

22 minutes ago, Brownie said:

so Richmond, Essendon etc etc will have watched that too and guess what will happen straight away next Tuesday night if we play our usual structure.

They'll apply them same tactics as the hawks did.

Massive challenge for the coaching staff and the playing group.

wadda we gonna do?????

interesting when a game plan can be picked apart so effectively.

It's one thing to change your structures to counter what Melbourne are doing it's another thing to do it effectively like Hawthorn did. Another lesser drilled club could try the same thing and get blown away by us.

We will learn from it and come back stronger.

1 minute ago, Wrecker45 said:

It's one thing to change your structures to counter what Melbourne are doing it's another thing to do it effectively like Hawthorn did. Another lesser drilled club could try the same thing and get blown away by us.

We will learn from it and come back stronger.

Ohhhh The blind faith!!!

How could you possibly train all summer with the same game plan and not have someone (like maybe one of the MANY coaches on our payroll!) test it out aggressively in opposition to try and break through it? (He could actually test it out himself - he’s had 6 months with 40 players at his disposal). If this had been done it would be clear once the game plan has been ‘defeated’ (to an extent) you move on to Plan B. It took 1 hour to implement any real change on Sunday - way too long, game was already over.

Goodwin is either super arrogant AND stubborn believing no one will penetrate his cunning plan (Think ‘Gargamel’ from The Smurfs) OR he’s ridiculously naive (which I fail to believe given his playing history and ability to reach a top AFL job).

Very nervous for this week (and what follows if we have a repeat performance).

2 hours ago, chookrat said:

While the tactical moves are important we got smashed because we didnt work hard enough to win the ball and find space and we didnt work hard enough to shut down Hawthorns run.  There are issues with our backline working as a cohesive unit which have caused us to cough up easy goals and we have been poor in convertong from inside 50 entries but to say our gameplan is fundamemtally flawed is a gross over exaggeration.

Actually we won plenty of the ball. The problem was rebound 50s and Hawthorn's transition. Which is an ongoing issue.

7 hours ago, SFebey said:

"

Melbourne constantly bombed the ball to Hawthorn's defence which outnumbered the Demons' forward line, allowing the Hawks' disciplined backline to repel with conviction.

Puzzlingly, Melbourne did not attempt to even up the disparity in its forward half and largely kept the same structure until the Demons moved Sam Frost into attack in the final term. That left Jesse Hogan to battle against two or three Hawks defenders.

Coaching in his 27th match (his 26th at Melbourne, after a single game at Essendon in 2013), Goodwin would have learned plenty from Hawthorn and master coach Clarkson about picking the right time to make a tactical move from the box."

 

- Dumb coaching from Goodwin

Can someone please tell me when he has made even one successful tactical move from the box in a match?

To mee it seems like stubbornness - ND showed the same traits much of the time.  Or maybe arrogance - "I cant be wrong, surely"

7 hours ago, Wiseblood said:

I'd say it's stubborn, not dumb, coaching from Goodwin.  They would have trained with these structures all summer and it would be hard to just chuck it all in at the sign of a problem.  They tried to rectify it in the last term but by then it was too late.  

It's just as bad to constantly change a structure as it is to just stick with it.  Seeing what is occurring and make the correct changes is hard to learn.  Clarkson has been doing it for 15 years - when he saw what was wrong in the first term, he tweaked a few things and it made a huge difference.  Goodwin is clearly still learning to do the same thing in just his second season and, as the last paragraph states, would* have learned plenty from the weekend.

His challenge now, and the hope for us supporters, is that he has learned from it now.  No doubt he was thoroughly out coached on the weekend and he needs to learn quickly how to respond when the momentum turns,# but the positive is that he CAN learn from it and he CAN work with the players to make things better.

* certainly should but would remains to be seen

 

# CAN - yet to be proven IMO

Dumb and stubborn are one way of looking at it. I think "unlikely to win all games in the short term wile trying to set the team up for the long term" is better. 

I believe Goodwin was trying to stick with the plan which the players weren't correctly implementing.  It can important for a young squad to stick to their guns when under pressure, to try and do the right things.  If instead Goodwin said "oh you're playing badly so I sit trust you to do it correctly and ill change your structures and not give you a chance to with it" the players wouldn't learn

That being said, I think we passed the point of learning on Sunday and he should have changed it up.  I just understand why he is reluctant. 

47 minutes ago, DemonWheels said:

How could you possibly train all summer with the same game plan and not have someone (like maybe one of the MANY coaches on our payroll!) test it out aggressively in opposition to try and break through it? (He could actually test it out himself - he’s had 6 months with 40 players at his disposal). If this had been done it would be clear once the game plan has been ‘defeated’ (to an extent) you move on to Plan B. It took 1 hour to implement any real change on Sunday - way too long, game was already over.

Goodwin is either super arrogant AND stubborn believing no one will penetrate his cunning plan (Think ‘Gargamel’ from The Smurfs) OR he’s ridiculously naive (which I fail to believe given his playing history and ability to reach a top AFL job).

Very nervous for this week (and what follows if we have a repeat performance).

It is what i cannot work out. You test a theory at each level till it is solid. 

This one fails. But we keep using it...

Having no wingman on our home turf is just beyond comprehension. 

 

sorry,

late coming to demonland this week. Took that long to calm down. 

No one so far I’ve read has mentioned we are just terrible in the wet. Our game style / talent doesn’t stand up in the wet. It didn’t really work against Brisbane as soon as it got slippery there and certainly went to puss this week. 

It would be fascinating to see what would have happened this week end if it was dry. I’m not saying we win by any stretch but think we would have been better. 

Replace Bugg in that side with Hannan and I reckon we win that game against the Hawks. Bugg's skills are deplorable, always takes the wrong option. His missed shots and turnovers in the second quarter killed the teams confidence. Petracca had a bit of a mare as well.

9 hours ago, buck_nekkid said:

I saw this article.  Shows we are a work in progress.  The ability to them to jam us up and destroy our forward entry was evident on the weekend.  The review would be interesting this week - it seems we have a lot of 'external review' of our gameplan, and if we fail to learn from it, we deserve what we get.  We have to learn to respond, and to hold our own structures for our own benefit - not get sucked into their plans.  Seems that this change, made after qtr time, made a significant impact.

Our forward line, Backline and midfield is all over the shop. Add to the fact everyone is reading Maxy's taps.

When ya got a good Plan A you don't need a Plan B.
We don't have a good Plan A ,and we don't have a Plan B.