Farewell Jack Watts

[Wiseblood 24,637]

9 minutes ago, Bobby McKenzie said:

Exactly. When you read what rival coaches say about Watts in PRAISE it makes one think that Goodwin is letting his personal feelings towards Jack outweigh logic  by offloading a polished, proven finisher.  These coaches that are in charge of teams that make FINALS footy say they would like Jack in their team. A star like Dangerfield  also would like Jack in his team.  Down the slippery slide next season just as we were on the up. Very depressing. Another year wasted.

Question for you Bobby - are you always prone to over the top statements, such as the last one? A year wasted before it's begun because we are trading one player? I hope you can see how silly you sound. 

[What 18,810]

11 minutes ago, Bobby McKenzie said:

Exactly. When you read what rival coaches say about Watts in PRAISE it makes one think that Goodwin is letting his personal feelings towards Jack outweigh logic  by offloading a polished, proven finisher.  These coaches that are in charge of teams that make FINALS footy say they would like Jack in their team. A star like Dangerfield  also would like Jack in his team.  Down the slippery slide next season just as we were on the up. Very depressing. Another year wasted.

Yeah cos getting rid of Watts is going to ruin the cub lol

Get a grip.

[Skuit 10,031]

I took a pot at posters this year who were increasingly relying on the argument that the footy dept. knows best.

However, it seems now that Goodwin is covering for his insecurities concerning a failed year. Jones is a horrible leader on and off the field. Macca, who has been at the forefront of our development in young players including Oliver, is a divisive character who destroyed another club. Mahoney is a big-mouth who needs media-training, and PJ, who has almost single-handedly turned our club around through astute management, must of course be oblivious or then negligent in not stepping in. And together they know squat about Jack Watts.

Because there's no way the Golden Boy could possibly be to blame for the situation he finds himself in.

[Demons1858 1,760]

6 minutes ago, Skuit said:

I took a pot at posters this year who were increasingly relying on the argument that the footy dept. knows best.

However, it seems now that Goodwin is covering for his insecurities concerning a failed year. Jones is a horrible leader on and off the field. Macca, who has been at the forefront of our development in young players including Oliver, is a divisive character who destroyed another club. Mahoney is a big-mouth who needs media-training, and PJ, who has almost single-handedly turned our club around through astute management, must of course be oblivious or then negligent in not stepping in. And together they know squat about Jack Watts.

Because there's no way the Golden Boy could possibly be to blame for the situation he finds himself in.

Well said Skuit ... you typically get the 'footy dept knows best' line when other posters don't have any rationale or facts to debate a topic. It's their 'get out of jail' card

Edited October 8, 2017 by Demons1858

[Gator 17,357]

2 hours ago, ChewyOnMyBoot said:

This is just an amazing thread. I find the depth and breadth of criticism of Watts fascinating. How is it that some DLers seem to have a level of spitefulness towards Watts (certainly visible in the words that they write) that to me is virtually a hatred of Watts. Not just a dissatisfaction.

Is it only me that wonders what it takes to be the kind of person that does that?

Maybe Oscar Wilde's comment on it contains some level of truth:

“Criticism is the only reliable form of autobiography" indicating that it tells us more about the psychology of the critic than the people he or she is criticising.

Hows that for a psychological assessment? Free of charge. I'd suggest some of you particularly spiteful contributors get some help!

Hahahahahahaha.

And, I wonder if the snipers would have so much bravado if they were face to face with him. On their own. Pretty sure I know the answer to that.

 

 

 

 

You should have taken your own advice and finished up.

You've learnt nothing and add nothing.

[Dr. Gonzo 24,219]

I picked up "The Coach" the other day about North's 1977 season. Plenty of great quotes from Barassi and I've only just finished the section on preseason. A lot to do with people getting the best out of themselves and naturally gifted players who coast because they've never had to try to succeed but the ones that push themselves are those who become champions. This quote I've uploaded seemed quite apt.

Also notable, Barassi kicked a very popular player in Kekovich out of the club to the Magpies during the 77 season for similar issues, lack of effort, lack of professionalism, thinking he could coast on talent. Obviously North went on to win the flag.

Edited October 8, 2017 by Dr. Gonzo

[Demons1858 1,760]

2 hours ago, sue said:

Great reason to want him gone - he embarrasses you with your friends!    I think you should stick to the reasons you've relied on earlier  DrD- they at least make sense even to those who disagree with your conclusions.

Hey Sue, no one is saying get rid of Jack just because of the media circus that follows him but its a nice byproduct I have to admit

[Gator 17,357]

6 minutes ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

I picked up "The Coach" the other day about North's 1977 season. Plenty of great quotes from Barassi and I've only just finished the section on preseason. A lot to do with people getting the best out of themselves and naturally gifted players who coast because they've never had to try to succeed but the ones that push themselves are those who become champions. This quote I've uploaded seemed quite apt.

Also notable, Barassi kicked a very popular player in Kekovich out of the club to the Magpies during the 77 season for similar issues, lack of effort, lack of professionalism, thinking he could coast on talent. Obviously North went on to win the flag.

My first "Love".

[Dr. Gonzo 24,219]

1 hour ago, whitito said:

Simply put ....if a player is put up for trade and clubs especially Sydney and Geelong perk up. I would take the player off the table. 

It seems as though it is going to happen. On face value I don't like it at all, but I simply have to put out faith into the club and hopefully we look back in 5 years and this might be a turning point.

 

 

 

 

Swans and Cats have made their own errors. Even the Hawks signed Vickery.

Swans and Cats probably think they have solid cultures in place to turn Watts around and make him see the light. 

At Melbourne Watts is a senior player and regardless of leadership status should be seen as setting the culture. At Swans and Cats they would be backing their leaders to mould Watts into the player they expect due to their strong cultures. 

They may succeed, they may fail - but any success on their part to turn Watts around is irrelevant to the decision the club is making because the fact is at Melbourne it won't happen. 

[homsar 431]

5 hours ago, KingDingAling said:

No difference anymore. They are practically the same thing nowadays.

That is such a weird way of seeing the world  

 

[Dr.D 1,771]

people still thinking he wont go? wow.

an outside flanker who has career averages of 0.9 goals and 1.3 brownlow votes a season. 

even when he gets dropped to casey he never has stand out performances. 

[Dr. Gonzo 24,219]

37 minutes ago, Wiseblood said:

Question for you Bobby - are you always prone to over the top statements, such as the last one? A year wasted before it's begun because we are trading one player? I hope you can see how silly you sound. 

If the only moves we made this season were out Watts in Lever we're already ahead. Lever is a better player and only 21..

[Demons1858 1,760]

3 minutes ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

If the only moves we made this season were out Watts in Lever we're already ahead. Lever is a better player and only 21..

Agree Watts has a few years on Lever ... the trade speculation seems to have really had an impact

Edited October 8, 2017 by Demons1858

[TeamPlayedFine39 8,508]

This has got to be single most divisive thread I’ve ever read on here.  Personally I’m torn and I see a lot of merit in what both sides have to say.

My Head says ‘go’ my heart says ‘stay’...

 

 

[Akum 2,660]

On 7 October 2017 at 9:03 PM, Biffen said:

I'm hoping Goodwin reflects upon his own imperfections  and can see that using JW as a scapegoat for his own failures is self defeating.

No chance of that, unfortunately. Goody would be crowing.

[What 18,810]

On 07/10/2017 at 9:03 PM, Biffen said:

I'm hoping Goodwin reflects upon his own imperfections  and can see that using JW as a scapegoat for his own failures is self defeating.

Yeah, fairly sure Goody isnt doing that at all.

And what failures exactly?

Edited October 8, 2017 by Petraccattack

[demoniac 1,333]

1 minute ago, Akum said:

No chance of that, unfortunately. Goody would be crowing.

Or it could be that view across  football and administration of the club is that if they give Jack another chance to demonstrate he understands the professionalism required to be an elite athlete it will set a poor example to the rest of the playing group.

Is it ok to coast a little if you've got enough talent?

[Akum 2,660]

On 7 October 2017 at 11:36 PM, demoniac said:

I think our CEO and Board would have been briefed about the decision to trade Jack, the reasons behind that decision, and the messaging around that decision.

Yeah, you'd think so, wouldn't you?

[beelzebub 23,376]

4 hours ago, Stretch Johnson said:

You're referring to your views here on Jones? 

I was replying to your post

 Read my answer in that context. 

My reference was generic. Interesting you think it was Jones specific.

Jones is a soldier and fair in that role. No General.

Those who can oust are often higher up.

[frankie_d 1,471]

26 minutes ago, Akum said:

Yeah, you'd think so, wouldn't you?

Do you think they aren’t aren’t across this? If that’s the case, then there’s a serious intra club issue. 

[Akum 2,660]

12 hours ago, Redleg said:

But isn't that the honest answer.

Watts is contracted and can refuse to move. He will be paid if he plays Seniors or Casey.

He can say" stuff you, I am staying and will do so well you have to play me". He has that right and option. We have said if there is no better option for Jack he will stay  

OR he can explore options and leave. It is his choice even if he has been made to feel unwanted.

Jones is correct, what comes next will be Jack's doing. It is his choice.

Tell Goodwin at the B & F I am staying, honouring my contract and I will make you play me. 

Seriously?

No, it's a very dishonest answer. One of the least savoury aspects about this for me is the way the club's tried to paint that it's Jack's choice to leave or stay, when he hasn't been given the choice to stay. If Jack had the choice to stay, he would stay, even if it meant playing for Casey for the next 2 seasons if Goody refused to pick him. If your coach tells you, in effect, that you're no longer wanted in the team, you don't hang around.

I really don't understand why, if the coaches (not just Goodwin) are pushing him out (and the captains are apparently right behind them), they have not thus far shown the character to own that decision. Or are there other reasons why the coaches are so eager to avoid responsibility for this decision? Serious question.

I don't know for the life of me why Goody or Mahoney didn't just come out in the first place and say something like: "our game is going to focus much more on contested ball and strong tackling in 2018 and, while Watts has considerable skills, they aren't the skills we need to help us get to where we want to go".

The rational response would then be: "fair enough, if that's what you're going to do, you have the right to make that decision". People can agree or disagree about whether that's the best way to go, but nobody could deny that it was Goody's right to make that decision. And it would have avoided the repeated and tacky and totally unnecessary ad hominem attacks on Watts.

Goody has another chance at the B&F - he can show character and stand up and take responsibility for the decision, or he can duck responsibility and try to throw Watts under that bus one more time. Or, if he's secure in the decision and of the club's (& sponsors') support for it, he just won't take the bait and will leave it alone.

[London Demon 259]

I think we have all exhausted ourselves going backwards and forwards on this. It's not unlike he endless debates over here about  Brexit. Lots of effort, emotion, analysis and argument, but no-one actually convinces anyone, even themselves, and in the end the debate goes nowhere.

It's late afternoon here in London, I assume all will be pretty much known during Monday Melbourne time, so it will decided by the time I wake up tomorrow morning. Till then....

[Akum 2,660]

12 hours ago, PaulRB said:

I agree Jack has potential to grow into a better player. But that’s exactly why his inability (or disinclination) to take that step is so vexing. 

As the saying goes: “You can lead a horse to water but you can’t make it drink”. Jacks had 1st class coaches, facilities, opportunities for the past three years. Many players are flourishing, players now see the MFC as a place to be. But Jack’s been choosing not to fully leverage this opportunity... 

See, this is just plain wrong.

According to the stats we saw many pages ago now (page 99, IIRC), Watts is elite (statistically, at least) in putting the ball inside forward 50 to our best advantage over the past 2 years. But he's also statistically elite in pressure acts / pressure points in the forward half, to keep the ball in there.

I reckon all of us were surprised by the second one. Most clubs place great store in these parameters - they're exactly what they want their tall forwards to do for the team. They show that in both attacking and defensive skills, Watts not only is right up there, but that he HAS in fact taken his game to another level.

It's simply wrong today that he hasn't made an effort to improve. Either you didn't know about these or you (along with our coaches) know about them and don't consider these areas to be important. But they're there.

I don't really care if you don't want to see it. But if our coaches don't, then it's another thing altogether.

[bing181 9,238]

10 minutes ago, Akum said:

According to the stats we saw many pages ago now (page 99, IIRC), Watts is elite (statistically, at least) in putting the ball inside forward 50

Once again, and for the nth time, this isn't primarily about Watts' on-field performance.

[Akum 2,660]

12 hours ago, PaulRB said:

My view is the MFC would prefer Jack pull his finger out, and stay. But after years of encouraging him to do so are frustrated, and if he wont (pull said finger out), we'd be better off without him.

There's actually a fair bit of tough love and care in giving a player like Jack such a public correction. I've no doubt if Jack thrives elsewhere (or at the MFC) it will be due in no small part to the harsh reality check he's currently receiving.

 

Sorry, but again, just plain wrong.

When Roos gave his opinion that he wouldn't trade Watts, he also said that you don't motivate people by focussing on their mistakes; that was the big problem before I came here. You motivate Jack Watts by using positive reinforcement, not focussing on his mistakes. (now that's not news; in most other walks of live, it's well known that positive reinforcement is a far more effective way of motivating anybody. Jack had enough "focus on his mistakes" by Neeld, as did all his teammates at the time, and in Roos opinion, "that was the big problem before I came here".

The implication was, "Goody, you know how to motivate Jack Watts. I showed you that last year. Why are you choosing to handle him completely the wrong way?" Quite an admonishment, for me.

If he goes to a club that motivates their players by positive reinforcement (pick a club, any club), if you believe Roos (and of course you're free not to), he's likely to do better. Watts has, by all accounts, had big pitches made to him by Swans, Cats, Port & Pies, who all think they can do better with him than we did. This includes 2 of the 3 consistently best 3 clubs over the past 10-15 years, who match high standards with positive reinforcement. 

Again, Watts is gone, but cutting him out isn't going to fix any of our problems. I'm not on a campaign for him to stay, I'm much more concerned about my club going into the future. And just as it's wrong to totally blame Goody and say Watts did nothing wrong (which nobody is saying), it's wrong to totally blame Watts and say Goody did nothing wrong (which a lot of people are saying). It's self-defeating to think that the club couldn't have handled this better, because, just as you say about Watts in other posts, it's important for US to learn from OUR mistakes and move on. Whether or not Watts does is now another club's problem.