Farewell Jack Watts

[demonoid 317]

58 minutes ago, Unleash Hell said:

T mac was very impressive as a forward this year.

dare i say maybe even more consistent then Watts?

I thought he looked really dangerous for a while round 23 but got nothing from umps. Got mauled just before half or 3/4 time and no free kick and he went spare. Clearly troubles defenders. Lever comes in and we have the luxury of sending him foward more often 

[Dee tention 616]

The sooking needs too stop! Haha

Come up with some trades people. Lol

If these teams want too trade. These are the players they will have to give up or Jack stays;

Pies - Sidebottom

Power - Hartlett

Eagles - Gaff

Geelong - Blicavs

Swans - Hayward

Looks like Jack stays... I think Port could give up Hartlett though if any trade were too happen. 

Play hardball Dees! Nothing too lose...

* 2nd & 3rd round picks likely too be swapped also.

[whatwhat say what 22,741]

4 minutes ago, Dee tention said:

The sooking needs too stop! Haha

Come up with some trades people. Lol

If these teams want too trade. These are the players they will have to give up or Jack stays;

Pies - Sidebottom

Power - Hartlett

Eagles - Gaff

Geelong - Blicavs

Swans - Hayward

Looks like Jack stays... I think Port could give up Hartlett though if any trade were too happen. 

Play hardball Dees! Nothing too lose...

* 2nd & 3rd round picks likely too be swapped also.

Frontbum, Hammer, Gaff yes please - but I think all three are ‘worth’ more than Watts

I’d rather Duncan from the Cats and Lloyd from Swans; even they might be ‘worth’ more than Watts tho?

[robbiefrom13 887]

Just for a bit of fairness, too, Watts may not be the best tackler, but he gets down back at the exhaustion end of quarters and games, and saves goals.  Like he did within seconds of his final goal on the QB.  He has done that for several years, many times.  I have wondered if he was asked to, probably was I suppose, though he doesn't seem to get much credit for doing it.  He works very hard, and if you look at any vision of end-of-quarter huddles in the godawful Nield days you'll see Jack intently listening and egging his team-mates on.  He is an eminently positive element in the club, and it is just not speaking truthfully to characterise him as a lazy and self-satisfied downhill skier.  

On here too often we didn't value Jurrah as the unique and very talented creative/offensive player he was, with post after post criticising his defensive work.  Might as well bag out Ricky Jackson's ruck work.  Or Petracca's tank.  Etc.  

Armchair critics do a wonderful job explaining what they don't rate; reminds me of a lovely anecdote Horowitz told about his father-in-law Toscanini.  The great conductor had just done Beethoven and as soon as interval was over he was going to do Mozart - but before he could get to the pit he was bailed up by a society dame who launched into her analysis of what was lacking in Beethoven.  Finally unable to listen to any more, Toscanini interrupted, saying "Madam, what you think doesn't matter."

Well, rude, yes, but he was obviously right as far as Beethoven goes.  Some people assume their own expertise when there is nothing to support it, and they have no shame splashing their ignorance and inanities around.

Demonland is not full of supporters; it's full of know-alls who dismiss and slander athletes doing stuff most of these critics cannot understand and have only ever dreamed about.  Spout their hairy-chested nonsense shamelessly.  So what if the club does get a good deal when they cast Watts aside?  Are we in Nield's camp, not seeing them as people?  

It is a disgrace to cast off a loyal servant who faced up to gorillas in the ruck week after week, surprising everyone with his resilience and effectiveness when so out of his weight, only to end up injured - at which point we are callously and ungratefully hop into him and his failings, completely disregard what he says publicly about his own strong preferences, when he's thrust into the spotlight by the club; and we start haggling over the body and what we might get in the aftermath, even before he's gone.  And dignify it with calling it a "forum"!  

Nah, shout your abuse at my back, and yes, I'll close the door as I leave.  

I say, shame on the lot of you! 

[Dee Dubya 220]

43 minutes ago, DemonAndrew said:

No Lily Mithen option?

She must be going to Geelong

Sadly, more true than funny.

[DistrACTION Jackson 8,720]

I hope we do the following trades:

1. Trade Watts & 2017 1st rounder to Collingwood for Pick 6 & their 2nd round pick

2. Trade Pick 6 and 2018 first round to Eagles for Gaff and their 2017 1st round pick

3. Trade Eagles 2017 first round pick and Collingwood 2017 2nd round pick for Lever

Would make the 2017 off season a huge success plus we will likely get a few other decent players in like Balic for a 3rd rounder.

[Dee tention 616]

5 minutes ago, DemonAndrew said:

Frontbum, Hammer, Gaff yes please - but I think all three are ‘worth’ more than Watts

I’d rather Duncan from the Cats and Lloyd from Swans; even they might be ‘worth’ more than Watts tho?

I was going to put Llyod, Rohan & Papley in there with Hayward. Hayward for me though.

Duncan gun player but I think Blicavs is gettable. Big running midfielder who also rucks. Difficult match up and is a tackling machine.

[mo64 5,874]

It's been mentioned before, but the reaction by many is akin to the uproar at Hawthorn when they traded Trent Croad to Freo.

So I thought I'd have a look to see what they got in exchange for Croad and Luke McPharlin. Well, with those picks they got a couple of plodders in Luke Hodge and Sam Mitchell.

If only Clarko had of listened to the supporters before trading away one of their favourite sons, which in turn destroyed the fabric of the club.

[dieter 3,325]

14 minutes ago, robbiefrom13 said:

Just for a bit of fairness, too, Watts may not be the best tackler, but he gets down back at the exhaustion end of quarters and games, and saves goals.  Like he did within seconds of his final goal on the QB.  He has done that for several years, many times.  I have wondered if he was asked to, probably was I suppose, though he doesn't seem to get much credit for doing it.  He works very hard, and if you look at any vision of end-of-quarter huddles in the godawful Nield days you'll see Jack intently listening and egging his team-mates on.  He is an eminently positive element in the club, and it is just not speaking truthfully to characterise him as a lazy and self-satisfied downhill skier.  

On here too often we didn't value Jurrah as the unique and very talented creative/offensive player he was, with post after post criticising his defensive work.  Might as well bag out Ricky Jackson's ruck work.  Or Petracca's tank.  Etc.  

Armchair critics do a wonderful job explaining what they don't rate; reminds me of a lovely anecdote Horowitz told about his father-in-law Toscanini.  The great conductor had just done Beethoven and as soon as interval was over he was going to do Mozart - but before he could get to the pit he was bailed up by a society dame who launched into her analysis of what was lacking in Beethoven.  Finally unable to listen to any more, Toscanini interrupted, saying "Madam, what you think doesn't matter."

Well, rude, yes, but he was obviously right as far as Beethoven goes.  Some people assume their own expertise when there is nothing to support it, and they have no shame splashing their ignorance and inanities around.

Demonland is not full of supporters; it's full of know-alls who dismiss and slander athletes doing stuff most of these critics cannot understand and have only ever dreamed about.  Spout their hairy-chested nonsense shamelessly.  So what if the club does get a good deal when they cast Watts aside?  Are we in Nield's camp, not seeing them as people?  

It is a disgrace to cast off a loyal servant who faced up to gorillas in the ruck week after week, surprising everyone with his resilience and effectiveness when so out of his weight, only to end up injured - at which point we are callously and ungratefully hop into him and his failings, completely disregard what he says publicly about his own strong preferences, when he's thrust into the spotlight by the club; and we start haggling over the body and what we might get in the aftermath, even before he's gone.  And dignify it with calling it a "forum"!  

Nah, shout your abuse at my back, and yes, I'll close the door as I leave.  

I say, shame on the lot of you! 

Best Demonland post I've read for a long time. Good also to find a fellow musical cultured beast. ( By the way, I hate Toscanini, am a Furtwangler man, and am not a Horowitz fan as well. Give me Arrau and Richter any day,)

Edited September 28, 2017 by dieter

[Dee tention 616]

9 minutes ago, Is Dom Is Good said:

I hope we do the following trades:

1. Trade Watts & 2017 1st rounder to Collingwood for Pick 6 & their 2nd round pick (Pick 36)  NO THANKS 

2. Trade Pick 6 and 2018 first round to Eagles for Gaff and their 2017 1st round pick  NO THANKS - OVERS

3. Trade Eagles 2017 first round pick and Collingwood 2017 2nd round pick for Lever

PICK 13 & 36   WONT HAPPEN

PICK 10 & 27   MORE LIKELY

Would make the 2017 off season a huge success plus we will likely get a few other decent players in like Balic for a 3rd rounder. WILL HAPPEN  PICK 45

 

Edited September 28, 2017 by Dee tention

[Ron Burgundy 8,584]

12 minutes ago, robbiefrom13 said:

Just for a bit of fairness, too, Watts may not be the best tackler, but he gets down back at the exhaustion end of quarters and games, and saves goals.  Like he did within seconds of his final goal on the QB.  He has done that for several years, many times.  I have wondered if he was asked to, probably was I suppose, though he doesn't seem to get much credit for doing it.  He works very hard, and if you look at any vision of end-of-quarter huddles in the godawful Nield days you'll see Jack intently listening and egging his team-mates on.  He is an eminently positive element in the club, and it is just not speaking truthfully to characterise him as a lazy and self-satisfied downhill skier.  

On here too often we didn't value Jurrah as the unique and very talented creative/offensive player he was, with post after post criticising his defensive work.  Might as well bag out Ricky Jackson's ruck work.  Or Petracca's tank.  Etc.  

Armchair critics do a wonderful job explaining what they don't rate; reminds me of a lovely anecdote Horowitz told about his father-in-law Toscanini.  The great conductor had just done Beethoven and as soon as interval was over he was going to do Mozart - but before he could get to the pit he was bailed up by a society dame who launched into her analysis of what was lacking in Beethoven.  Finally unable to listen to any more, Toscanini interrupted, saying "Madam, what you think doesn't matter."

Well, rude, yes, but he was obviously right as far as Beethoven goes.  Some people assume their own expertise when there is nothing to support it, and they have no shame splashing their ignorance and inanities around.

Demonland is not full of supporters; it's full of know-alls who dismiss and slander athletes doing stuff most of these critics cannot understand and have only ever dreamed about.  Spout their hairy-chested nonsense shamelessly.  So what if the club does get a good deal when they cast Watts aside?  Are we in Nield's camp, not seeing them as people?  

It is a disgrace to cast off a loyal servant who faced up to gorillas in the ruck week after week, surprising everyone with his resilience and effectiveness when so out of his weight, only to end up injured - at which point we are callously and ungratefully hop into him and his failings, completely disregard what he says publicly about his own strong preferences, when he's thrust into the spotlight by the club; and we start haggling over the body and what we might get in the aftermath, even before he's gone.  And dignify it with calling it a "forum"!  

Nah, shout your abuse at my back, and yes, I'll close the door as I leave.  

I say, shame on the lot of you! 

Nice work Robbie!

I say, bring back the humanity to this game, to this forum.

 

[Dr. Gonzo 24,207]

17 minutes ago, robbiefrom13 said:

Just for a bit of fairness, too, Watts may not be the best tackler, but he gets down back at the exhaustion end of quarters and games, and saves goals.  Like he did within seconds of his final goal on the QB.  He has done that for several years, many times.  I have wondered if he was asked to, probably was I suppose, though he doesn't seem to get much credit for doing it.  He works very hard, and if you look at any vision of end-of-quarter huddles in the godawful Nield days you'll see Jack intently listening and egging his team-mates on.  He is an eminently positive element in the club, and it is just not speaking truthfully to characterise him as a lazy and self-satisfied downhill skier.  

On here too often we didn't value Jurrah as the unique and very talented creative/offensive player he was, with post after post criticising his defensive work.  Might as well bag out Ricky Jackson's ruck work.  Or Petracca's tank.  Etc.  

Armchair critics do a wonderful job explaining what they don't rate; reminds me of a lovely anecdote Horowitz told about his father-in-law Toscanini.  The great conductor had just done Beethoven and as soon as interval was over he was going to do Mozart - but before he could get to the pit he was bailed up by a society dame who launched into her analysis of what was lacking in Beethoven.  Finally unable to listen to any more, Toscanini interrupted, saying "Madam, what you think doesn't matter."

Well, rude, yes, but he was obviously right as far as Beethoven goes.  Some people assume their own expertise when there is nothing to support it, and they have no shame splashing their ignorance and inanities around.

Demonland is not full of supporters; it's full of know-alls who dismiss and slander athletes doing stuff most of these critics cannot understand and have only ever dreamed about.  Spout their hairy-chested nonsense shamelessly.  So what if the club does get a good deal when they cast Watts aside?  Are we in Nield's camp, not seeing them as people?  

It is a disgrace to cast off a loyal servant who faced up to gorillas in the ruck week after week, surprising everyone with his resilience and effectiveness when so out of his weight, only to end up injured - at which point we are callously and ungratefully hop into him and his failings, completely disregard what he says publicly about his own strong preferences, when he's thrust into the spotlight by the club; and we start haggling over the body and what we might get in the aftermath, even before he's gone.  And dignify it with calling it a "forum"!  

Nah, shout your abuse at my back, and yes, I'll close the door as I leave.  

I say, shame on the lot of you! 

The problem is the criticism isn't confined to the rabble here on Demonland, obviously there's some in the club who feel he hasn't been pulling his weight and can offer more on the trade table than he does on our list next year.

Obviously Watts is not a terrible player. If he was he wouldn't be being considered for trade, he'd be delisted. We're not gonna get anything for JKH or Kennedy on the trade market, Watts is the kind of player other clubs will bite at. He seems like a genuinely nice bloke, it's not personal or vindictive for me. But if the club believes they can better the list by putting him up for trade in this instance I agree with them.

[DistrACTION Jackson 8,720]

4 minutes ago, Dee tention said:

 

I didn't realize Pies don't have a 2nd rounder this year. Well 2018 then.

It looks like he is going to Port anyway but it would be nice if there was a mini bidding war to drive up his price slightly.

I'm pretty content to see him leave as long as we get a solid return we can use in other trades or a solid player to add to our side.

I believe Weideman will be a very good forward and will be better than Watts, possibly as early as next season. I want to see a forward line of Hogan and Weid with 4-5 small/medium forwards who can pressure all game. That is the way footy is played these days and will win flags.

[Ron Burgundy 8,584]

The problem with most first year coaches is that they try to hard.

They squeeze the grip too hard, they lack soft hands, they micro manage far too much.

Watts loves the club. He is clearly a decent individual. He is talented. He is popular. He is MFC. And, like us, he craves ultimate success at this club.

Let him breathe Simon. Give him some space to do it his way (within team rules, obviously). I reckon you'll be rewarded for it if you do.

It'll be a sad day if Watts is traded this year. I reckon the movie script will have been cut a few scenes too short.

 

Edited September 28, 2017 by Ron Burgundy

[dieter 3,325]

2 minutes ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

The problem is the criticism isn't confined to the rabble here on Demonland, obviously there's some in the club who feel he hasn't been pulling his weight and can offer more on the trade table than he does on our list next year.

Obviously Watts is not a terrible player. If he was he wouldn't be being considered for trade, he'd be delisted. We're not gonna get anything for JKH or Kennedy on the trade market, Watts is the kind of player other clubs will bite at. He seems like a genuinely nice bloke, it's not personal or vindictive for me. But if the club believes they can better the list by putting him up for trade in this instance I agree with them.

It's not the point: the point is the ridiculous and constant and abject criticism of a very talented and loyal Melbourne player who has kicked more goals and taken more marks and got more kicks in the AFL than anyone who has ever criticized him on Demonland.

[demonoid 317]

49 minutes ago, Dee tention said:

The sooking needs too stop! Haha

Come up with some trades people. Lol

If these teams want too trade. These are the players they will have to give up or Jack stays;

Pies - Sidebottom

Power - Hartlett

Eagles - Gaff

Geelong - Blicavs

Swans - Hayward

Looks like Jack stays... I think Port could give up Hartlett though if any trade were too happen. 

Play hardball Dees! Nothing too lose...

* 2nd & 3rd round picks likely too be swapped also.

He’s not worth any of these guys and that’s where the problem lies with watts

[Goodvibes 3,596]

11 minutes ago, Ron Burgundy said:

Watts loves the club. He is clearly a decent individual. He is talented. He is popular. He is MFC. And, like us, he craves ultimate success at this club.

Watts loves the club? Absolutely.

He is clearly a decent individual? Most certainly.

He is talented? Indeed.

He is popular. For sure.

He is MFC? A fine embodiment of the past 9 years perhaps.

He craves ultimate success at this club? So so much evidence to the contrary.

I'm going to miss him if he goes, but I completely understand the position of the footy department. My first instinct was "please no" mainly because I genuinely believe in the first four statements I've quoted above. I also realized after more rational thought that my main concern was what he might manage at another club. What a loser mentality that is. The word culture is so over-used in footy but this decision certainly won't cost us a premiership but it may just send the message to the rest of the list that helps us win one. We were so close this year. And I'm not talking about the .5% that cost us finals, I'm talking premierships. And premiership teams don't have passengers or those who have a good month of footy here or there. They have 22 players all pulling in the right direction who consistently meet the standards determined by the coaching staff - at the club, away from the club, during pre-season, before pre-season and in games. We've seen enough sadly. My respect for Goodwin, McCartney, Mahoney and Jackson continues to grow. We're in good hands.

[Guest]

I don't have an issue with this whatsoever, as it sounds as though that part of this is player group driven. Which ultimately is what Roos wanted. The players taking responsibility for their future and driving standards. 

Nate has come out and said the playing group has had a go at Jack during the course of the year for his lax application. If this were all coming from the coach (as it seemed to be with Neeld), then perhaps.

However, it hasn't all been coach driven. Methinks something might have happened over the last couple of weeks that finally turned certain key members of the playing group against Jack.

That in some way gives me no joy and in other ways gives me hope.

A lot of the time on here, posters talk about how someone was a 'good bloke who they would share a beer' with when they get delisted or sacked (except Lumumba and that is understandable). Hell, even some were saying that about Neeldy even though he acted like a dead set peanut in the early days (though I must admit that I felt horribly sad for him at the end and was worried about how he was actually holding up). However, NO ONE disputes Jack is a lovely bloke and it pains me to see someone with such a good nature now being given the flick.

Nonetheless, if this is coming from certain sections of the leadership group, maybe we have FINALLY decided that we want to become great and that Jack's lackadaisical attitude is symptomatic of  what has gone wrong from 2009 onwards. If that is the case, then I will be overjoyed.

 

[McQueen 17,864]

14 minutes ago, Goodvibes said:

Watts loves the club? Absolutely.

He is clearly a decent individual? Most certainly.

He is talented? Indeed.

He is popular. For sure.

He is MFC? A fine embodiment of the past 9 years perhaps.

He craves ultimate success at this club? So so much evidence to the contrary.

I'm going to miss him if he goes, but I completely understand the position of the footy department. My first instinct was "please no" mainly because I genuinely believe in the first four statements I've quoted above. I also realized after more rational thought that my main concern was what he might manage at another club. What a loser mentality that is. The word culture is so over-used in footy but this decision certainly won't cost us a premiership but it may just send the message to the rest of the list that helps us win one. We were so close this year. And I'm not talking about the .5% that cost us finals, I'm talking premierships. And premiership teams don't have passengers or those who have a good month of footy here or there. They have 22 players all pulling in the right direction who consistently meet the standards determined by the coaching staff - at the club, away from the club, during pre-season, before pre-season and in games. We've seen enough sadly. My respect for Goodwin, McCartney, Mahoney and Jackson continues to grow. We're in good hands.

[Dr. Gonzo 24,207]

51 minutes ago, dieter said:

It's not the point: the point is the ridiculous and constant and abject criticism of a very talented and loyal Melbourne player who has kicked more goals and taken more marks and got more kicks in the AFL than anyone who has ever criticized him on Demonland.

Oh boo hoo it's a supporter discussion forum of course we're gonna discuss the club, all aspects of it. Criticism is not always unwarranted, there's clearly issues with Watts' professionalism as per the issues preseason and again following his injury. It's not isolated, he's been given multiple chances by different administrations throughout the years. How many chances does the club give a recidivist to get it right? Wait much longer and his career peters out to not much and he leaves as a cheap FA getting us not much in return ala Sylvia.

[old55 23,546]

Watts is gone, even Jumbo is trying to get used to it.

[Macca 16,961]

3 minutes ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

Oh boo hoo it's a supporter discussion forum of course we're gonna discuss the club, all aspects of it. Criticism is not always unwarranted, there's clearly issues with Watts' professionalism as per the issues preseason and again following his injury. It's not isolated, he's been given multiple chances by different administrations throughout the years. How many chances does the club give a recidivist to get it right? Wait much longer and his career peters out to not much and he leaves as a cheap FA getting us not much in return ala Sylvia.

Although we did get Vince for Sylvia via pick 23

The Crows turned pick 23 into Matt Crouch

There's always a catch.

[Demon Disciple 12,119]

18 minutes ago, McQueen said:

Agree McQueen. GVibes nailed it on the head. This decision is just as much about sending a message to anyone else who plays or will play for the club, talent is not enough. You are a professional AFL footballer, so act like one 24/7.

How long have we bemoaned the fact that if many of these players' were in any other profession, they would've been sacked ages ago?

Watts' is the epitome of all the talent in the world, yet dedication is left wanting. That is not acceptable nor good enough.

Give me a team of 22 Jack Viney's (even with his limitations) over 22 Watts' any day of the week. One definitely would be more than willing to be the first to break through the wall and get bloody, the other.........well yeah.

Jack Viney naturally wants to fight moment by moment, contest by contest, that will add up to getting us over the line. Watts is not committed enough to do it again and again and again.

As the great Tony D'Amato says "In any fight, it's the guy who's willing to die who's going to win that inch". Watts is not that guy, nor will he ever be.

[Akum 2,660]

Watts's playing career with the Demons is now past. I'm more interested now in the future from season 2018 onwards.

And I can't help but be concerned. This is the first cause for concern:

4 hours ago, At the break of Gawn said:

From Paul Roos: 

You can't always harp on people's weaknesses. That's the problem that certainly existed before I got to Melbourne," he said.

"Every player has got weaknesses. Wattsy responded when you talk about his positiives – he's an elite kick, he's an elite decision maker, he's a very good player.

https://www.sen.com.au/news/2017/09/28/roos-and-schwarz-urge-dees-to-re-think-watts-trade-plans/

...

This is actually a massive slap from Roos. There's a strong implication here that things have gone back to the pre-Roos days of "always harp(ing) on people's weaknesses", which Roos believes was the main problem before he got there. With this I totally agree.

He also says that it wasn't difficult to motivate Watts: "Wattsy responded when you talk about his positives". Again, a strong implication that they knew how to get the most out of Watts, but thought it was better to do the opposite. 

Again, I don't care who's to blame: Watts is past, our coaches are the future. Do our coaches only know one way to motivate the team - by smashing them about their weaknesses and faults - even when they know it's counterproductive for certain players? Is this what went on in the last half of the season that resulted in the whole team losing their ability to take the game on, when our scoring per game went from 102 points before the Swans game to 79 points after. What caused the whole team to collectively go back into its shells? If Watts isn't the only one who responds better to positive mediation, and if the coaches do the same thing next season ... that's my concern. And it would seem that concern is shared by Roos.

Another concern is the clubs that are apparently interested in him. Port and Collingwood we know, and apparently Geelong, Sydney & West Coast. There are a good number of clubs who think they might be able to do better with Watts than we did. These are all solid, well-run, well-structured clubs, not the sort of clubs (Brisbane or Freo) that enjoy a desperate speculative gamble. We have cast off many players over the past 10 years or so, no other player has had interest from 5 clubs.

OK, maybe our rookie coach and a previously failed coach may know more. Or maybe not. But I can't help but be very concerned about the future.

[Dr. Gonzo 24,207]

Is it a slap from Roos or is he trying to talk up Watts to increase his trade value? That article is a misrepresentation of what Roos actually said by the way.