List Structure: What do we actually need?

[deelete my account 1,194]

On 7/26/2017 at 0:17 PM, Diamond_Jim said:

I remember looking at our list after the GF loss in 2000 and thinking there was little that needed improvement.

How wrong could one be. All lists can be strengthened especially at that 18-30 player level.

On another note however I cannot remember a time when we had so many potential A graders (perhaps when Lyon, Schwartz and Neitz were at their best) but the likes of Hogan, Oliver, Petracca and Gawn are if they live up to expectations the types of players one can build a team around.

With the benefit of hindsight, our 2000 defence looks woefully inadequate. Our mid and fwd firepower did most of the lifting that year and the defence didnt really have to do much... until the final game.

Edited August 6, 2017 by DominatrixTyson

[monoccular 16,079]

5 hours ago, Lucifer's Hero said:

Since Roos we have recruited competitive players; exactly what we needed.  But many/most have poor disposal by hand and especially by foot. That is easily exploited by a well drilled opposition.

10-12 years ago the Hawks actively recruited players who were very good or excellent kicks, even better if they were left footed.  They took the view that they can teach aggression to players who have the right skills.  Four flags were the result.

Lots of people on here go gaga over high stats and toughness.  They are really important but not much good if we don't get value or impact from the work as we don't retain possession or use enormous energy to get it back so it is very difficult to control the tempo of a game.   Hence the bag of consecutive goals kicked against us on a regular basis.

I know we are young and inexperienced but all (bar Oliver) are now into their 3rd season at least and if they don't inherently have the disposal skills I don't think they can be taught to the required standard. 

Right now I feel our team doesn't have the right balance of skill sets.  Tough and aggressive, yes.  Accurate disposal skills, no (with maybe 2 or 3 exceptions). 

Those players are like gold but I don't know where they will come from.  We need to take a leaf out of Hawthorn's recruiting manual but unfortunately, re-balancing the skill set won't happen overnight. 

Edit: These comments aren't about the last few weeks - IMO it is a flaw in the make up of the team.

Not so sure that toughness can be taught - we tried that with the 'elite skills' of the likes of Morton, Maric, Blease etc.

Need to find players with both attributes - Oliver, Petracca, Salem all have the balance of skills and toughness.

[junk 342]

Lever could be a key defender for us but still needs to bulk up.Frost and O.Mac (incidentally is 1 cm taller than Lever) will bulk up. I can see O.Mac playing wing,Schwarz at 196 cm later played wing. Maynard with experience could play forward,Kent may be odd man out. JKH,ANB,TRENGOVE AND SPENCER will go west. J.Smith will end up as a mid,he has speed (non addictive version). 

[Dirts 429]

2 hours ago, DV8 said:

We need speed & skills, without sacrificing the thirst for a contest.

Let's get Kelly and lever . Use first round this and next year and give them a few b players . Wishful I know!

[Vineytime 783]

A classy A grade mid please

[Demon Disciple 10,994]

We need another quality KPD, this is already known.

What is being shown on recent form is that we also need another decent forward option (we haven't kicked a score over 100 since round 13). With Hogan having a frustratingly absent year and when Jeffy is down on confidence, we have no-one willing to step up and kick goals at the moment. Watts was the answer last year, but injury and form have him wavering this year.

We also need to bring in quality mids, not more midfield depth. Another quality mid automatically improves our midfield and knocks an NQR out of the team.

So a AA KPD, good forward, and AA mid. Lever, Stringer & Kelly would do nicely .

We are still a fair ways off being a contender.

 

 

Edited August 6, 2017 by Demon Disciple

[dimmy 1,114]

4 minutes ago, Demon Disciple said:

We need another quality KPD, this is already known.

What is being shown on recent form is that we also need another decent forward option (we haven't kicked a score over 100 since round 13). With Hogan having a frustratingly absent year and when Jeffy is down on confidence, we have no-one willing to step up and kick goals at the moment. Watts was the answer last year, but injury and form have him wavering this year.

We also need to bring in quality mids, not more midfield depth. Another quality mid automatically improves our midfield and knocks an NQR out of the team.

So a AA KPD, good forward, and AA mid. Lever, Stringer & Kelly would do nicely .

We are still a fair ways off being a contender.

 

 

$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

Salary Cap

We do not have special salary cap like Collingwood

[dimmy 1,114]

Get Seb Ross from St Kilda ( preferably sometime this week )

Exactly what we need !!!

[Demon Disciple 10,994]

10 minutes ago, dimmy said:

$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

Salary Cap

We do not have special salary cap like Collingwood

Maybe we need to trim some more fat.

[Wiseblood 24,636]

18 minutes ago, Demon Disciple said:

We need another quality KPD, this is already known.

What is being shown on recent form is that we also need another decent forward option (we haven't kicked a score over 100 since round 13). With Hogan having a frustratingly absent year and when Jeffy is down on confidence, we have no-one willing to step up and kick goals at the moment. Watts was the answer last year, but injury and form have him wavering this year.

We also need to bring in quality mids, not more midfield depth. Another quality mid automatically improves our midfield and knocks an NQR out of the team.

So a AA KPD, good forward, and AA mid. Lever, Stringer & Kelly would do nicely .

We are still a fair ways off being a contender.

 

 

I'm not so sure about that.  We've had an excellent spread of goal kickers this year which shows we do have, when the gameplan kicks, multiple avenues to goal.  Our problem is fixing up our structure across half forward.  In the last month we've missed Hogan and Watts, got Hogan back, then got Watts back and then lost Hogan again.  That makes it tough.

What the list truly needs is some continuity and, dare I say it, a little luck on the injury front.  We need some of our key players to stay injury free and to get momentum back into their game.  We've had to adapt so much to different things this year that it's almost left us without petrol in the tank and this key point in the season.  An AA ruckman, our best tall forward and a co-captain have missed close to 30 weeks combined this year.  It's tough to get consistency when this happens.  Fringe players you can cover; key personnel you can't (not for an extended period anyway).

[shorty 233]

Just a good finisher I would  love to see a Shaun HIGGINS type.

[Little Goffy 12,593]

Difficult thing to assess when we've got quite a few 'right fit' players out of form or off the field at the moment.

Watts, Garlett, Hogan, VanDenBerg, Brayshaw.

There's a whole lot of attacking roles filled, but right now it isn't quite there. Got one week to reinvigorate those who are on the field and replace those who aren't.

Gotta admit, I think a fully fit and ready Brayshaw would be as valuable to us as almost any young player you care to name from any list. Hard work defensively, vision and alertness when attacking, physically and psychologically solid.

[spirit of norm smith 12,948]

A classy midfielder who KICKS the ball and has efficiency above 75%.  Need 30 disposal game being 23+ kicks not 6 kicks 24 handballs mostly back into trouble!!!

[deelete my account 1,194]

Lets be honest, the Roos list turnover is not complete. Upgrading the bottom 6 for another year in October before adding an elite mid next year (whos avail free agency?) after we've seen another year of our rising stars is likely imo, aside from upgrading defence with Lever.

Edited August 7, 2017 by DominatrixTyson

[junk 342]

We seem to have a lot of good players but not ones that will be suitable for finals.WE have to give up someone or two of quality to get decent draft picks and by doing so may be beneficial to us next year. Trading HOGAN to freo will get us pick 4-6,Tyson a second round pick.ANB a 3rd rd pick. Along with our existing picks we will then have currency. We may pick up Lever and Kelly or 2M Peter. 

[trout 385]

I can't believe we have not been linked with Josh Kelly, he is exactly what we need and he is available.

[Dwight Schrute 16,795]

josh Kelly would look fantastic in red and blue. 

[dimmy 1,114]

2 hours ago, ENYAW said:

We seem to have a lot of good players but not ones that will be suitable for finals.WE have to give up someone or two of quality to get decent draft picks and by doing so may be beneficial to us next year. Trading HOGAN to freo will get us pick 4-6,Tyson a second round pick.ANB a 3rd rd pick. Along with our existing picks we will then have currency. We may pick up Lever and Kelly or 2M Peter. 

Why would we be trading Tyson (inside mid/young player) and ANB (developing midfielder who until a couple of weeks ago we were lauding as to how much he has improved)

We have youth , let it develop and then we will get loyalty. Think Hawthorn (in general) or Geelong

Just bring in our most pressing need : Ross, Kelly, Conalgio, Heeney , Scully (Higgins is too old for us), Mewrrit, Parish or Salem, Watts Petracca.  al of these are what we want. Some of them have been used by their teams to develop but there are three who are not being utilised by their current team. And hopefully we have a current No 3 draft pickchamping at the bit !!

As for the proposal that we trade TMac  .  WHYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY !!!!!!!!

[Dwight Schrute 16,795]

6 minutes ago, dimmy said:

Why would we be trading Tyson (inside mid/young player) and ANB (developing midfielder who until a couple of weeks ago we were lauding as to how much he has improved)

We have youth , let it develop and then we will get loyalty. Think Hawthorn (in general) or Geelong

Just bring in our most pressing need : Ross, Kelly, Conalgio, Heeney , Scully (Higgins is too old for us), Mewrrit, Parish or Salem, Watts Petracca.  al of these are what we want. Some of them have been used by their teams to develop but there are three who are not being utilised by their current team. And hopefully we have a current No 3 draft pickchamping at the bit !!

As for the proposal that we trade TMac  .  WHYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY !!!!!!!!

Mistake 1. Was trying to make sense of ENYAW

[Lord Travis 10,167]

We need a quality tall defender and a quality midfielder who is more outside. 
We have needed an elite midfielder for my entire lifetime. Oliver might get there, but he is as inside as they come. We need an elite outside mid for balance.

We need the key defender because Frost and Oscar aren't good enough to be relied upon in the one on ones. Stats show once the ball makes it into our defensive 50 we lose more one on ones than any team over the pst two months. They aren't doing their job. Oscar is improving and performing ok, Frost is battling and is getting destroyed by opposition tall forwards. Get a quality tall defender like Lever in to help support and organise the backline.

I don't think forwards are a big problem at the moment. When we are playing well we have a good spread of goal kickers. The forwards aren't scoring recently because the entry into forward 50 is atrocious from the midfield. That's the main thing we need to fix, and the best way to do that is to get good outside midfielders who can be the kick inside 50. It's simple; which is more like to have a better outcome? A forward marking uncontested on a lead from a good quick low kick, or a forward trying to mark a ball slowly coming in on his head with 1-2 defenders having time to wrestle and/or fly in to spoil? 
We need someone like Josh Kelly or Scully or Coniglio to set us up on the outside. We need pace and kicking skill.
 

[deelete my account 1,194]

Does anyone know what the story on Colin Garland is for 2018? Is the club aiming to rehab him back into contention to hold down a matchday spot? Or If he does not go on, will the club be looking for another key defender to replace one of Omac or Frost in the 22 (if Lever falls through)? Or to replace Garlands 2017 role prior to the injury ie depth ?

Edited August 7, 2017 by DominatrixTyson

[Wiseblood 24,636]

7 hours ago, DominatrixTyson said:

Does anyone know what the story on Colin Garland is for 2018? Is the club aiming to rehab him back into contention to hold down a matchday spot? Or If he does not go on, will the club be looking for another key defender to replace one of Omac or Frost in the 22 (if Lever falls through)? Or to replace Garlands 2017 role prior to the injury ie depth ?

Garland is contracted for 2018.  You would assume he'll stay on the list because of this and be purely a depth player.

[praha 10,282]

8 hours ago, DominatrixTyson said:

Does anyone know what the story on Colin Garland is for 2018? Is the club aiming to rehab him back into contention to hold down a matchday spot? Or If he does not go on, will the club be looking for another key defender to replace one of Omac or Frost in the 22 (if Lever falls through)? Or to replace Garlands 2017 role prior to the injury ie depth ?

He's just what we need in the team. Another lanky defender who can't lower his eyes coming out of defense, nor take a contested mark.

[Lucifers Hero 37,079]

9 hours ago, DominatrixTyson said:

Does anyone know what the story on Colin Garland is for 2018? Is the club aiming to rehab him back into contention to hold down a matchday spot? Or If he does not go on, will the club be looking for another key defender to replace one of Omac or Frost in the 22 (if Lever falls through)? Or to replace Garlands 2017 role prior to the injury ie depth ?

Garland, while on the LTI list, is now a coach of our AFLW team.  I'm guessing that was to give him a meaningful role during his rehab and perhaps allow him to get a taste of coaching.

Casey are doing quite well without his onfield experience and he is unlikely to make it back to the seniors with the number of defenders in our team. 

So, I wouldn't be surprised if at EOS his 2018 playing contract is converted to a longer coaching AFLW contract.  I hope so - I've always been a Garland fan but he totally won me over when Frawley won a flag.  Garland was asked about it and he said (paraphrasing) '...if the premiership isn't with Melbourne it wouldn't mean something...'  That for me goes beyond loyalty and shows true passion for our jumper.

[stevethemanjordan 6,952]

As unfortunate as it is for Garland, I think keeping him on the list for his last year is pointless from a list management perspective. Clearly he is not our future, and wasn't even best 22 before he did his knee. Put a year of important development into a youngster or give Garland a year to get his knee right so that he can at best be a depth defender before he is released at the end of 2019? It's a no-brainer really.

As for needs and wants, I see our list having a few problem areas, a big one being the following:

One thing I've noticed with us however is that if an opposition team brings and maintains the same level of pressure and aggression at the contest as we apply, we seem to really struggle. It seems we only have one way of playing. Bully and outmuscle an opposition team at the contest and hope that we get on top in that area.

We've basically built a midfield + depth for that kind of football and I'm fully aware that it's that kind of footy that stands up in finals. However as I mentioned, if the same heat is applied to our group, we collapse into a frenzy of over-handballing and ball-butchering play. And I'm of the view that we need to tinker with our list profile because of this and releasing some players who many on here would rate no doubt.

There is a distinct lack of composure and skill-execution across our list and especially our midfield-line group which needs some obvious correcting. You need to give up something to get something in this comp and we're in desperate need for some class, composure and power running through the middle of the ground.

Expendable players in my eyes are ANB, Tyson, Harmes, JKH and to a lesser extent Stretch.

Tyson to me is one player who we simply don't need given he's not part of our top tier midfield group and his versatility as a player is almost non-existent. He was a number 3 pick as an inside mid. His game is contested-ball winning but he now plays more of an outside role given the talent we have ahead of him in that area. Tyson is one-sided, slow and his skills are questionable. He is absolutely expendable.

ANB whilst playing the role of high pressure forward is a natural contested ball winning mid and is extremely limited in what he can provide our forward-line. Yeh pressure is important, but there are so many players who can provide that and then some.

This isn't a pot-shorting post to either player, so I'm not going to bite if the same nuffies start questioning why I'd move on either one of Tyson or ANB  because of their overt love for everyone wearing our colours. This is about what is best for the club and where we need to see improvement.

Two spots whereby we could bring in a couple of players who are quick, composed and versatile and would go a long way to making more dangerous in our ability to move the ball with more fluency.

A few of potential targets that wouldn't cost the farm would be: 

- Brendon Ah Chee https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zw2UVwSfG1M&t=56s

- Steven Motlop (for the right price)

- Devon Smith                                                                   

 

Edited August 8, 2017 by stevethemanjordan