Training - Friday 27th January, 2017

[Wizard333 42]

Hi, might be a silly question but is there training today or are they off to Qld? I understand if there is it might be a closed session but hoping to pop by for a look

[CBDees 3,167]

I was in a cafe in East Melbourne this morning at 8.30am and there was a player (?) collecting a takeaway coffee so maybe there is after all (unless he was in fancy dress)!

1 hour ago, Wizard333 said:

Hi, might be a silly question but is there training today or are they off to Qld? I understand if there is it might be a closed session but hoping to pop by for a look

 

[Drunkn167 5,093]

No training. They get the long weekend off before leaving for Queensland on Monday.

[Vogon Poetry 2,095]

I went down on the off chance they would train.  JKH and Jets with Crossy and and a few others having a work out. JKH doing leading and kicking work and Jets running.

Crossy the standout, looks like he could play tomorrow.

[Bring-Back-Powell 14,778]

20 minutes ago, Vogon Poetry said:

Crossy the standout, looks like he could play tomorrow.

This is the part that I don't understand about list management in the AFL.

At the end of 2015, they had a high quality player and person retire who clearly wanted to play on and clearly had some miles left in the leg (had a 37 possession game in his second last match of his career). Instead they retain a player like Terlich who was no where near selection in 2015 and became even further away in 2016. Yes, I know Terlich was under contract but the precedent was set a couple of years earlier with the delisting of Evans.

I wonder if Cross would've made any difference to our infamous losses to Essendon and Carlton last year, just like we question if Jordan Lewis would've made any difference.

Sorry to derail the training thread, but I thought it was poor move letting Cross go.   

Edited January 27, 2017 by Bring-Back-Powell

[poita 3,896]

I get your point, but Terlich didn't play a senior game last year. Cross would have taken games off Oliver / Petracca / Brayshaw / etc. Hopefully it is some short term pain for some long term gain.

[Clayton van Oliver 1,823]

56 minutes ago, Bring-Back-Powell said:

Sorry to derail the training thread, 

Don't think there's much to de-rail

[Satyriconhome 10,732]

21 hours ago, Bring-Back-Powell said:

This is the part that I don't understand about list management in the AFL.

At the end of 2015, they had a high quality player and person retire who clearly wanted to play on and clearly had some miles left in the leg (had a 37 possession game in his second last match of his career). Instead they retain a player like Terlich who was no where near selection in 2015 and became even further away in 2016. Yes, I know Terlich was under contract but the precedent was set a couple of years earlier with the delisting of Evans.

I wonder if Cross would've made any difference to our infamous losses to Essendon and Carlton last year, just like we question if Jordan Lewis would've made any difference.

Sorry to derail the training thread, but I thought it was poor move letting Cross go.   

I had a chat to Crossy, yes he was bitterly disappointed, but could understand the thinking behind the decision, as Poita said we needed to get games into some of the younger ones

Club gave him a chance to pursue career off field, he had a few offers, but decided MFC was where he wanted to be

Keeps his hand in playing with his old junior club in Albury when he can

Edited January 27, 2017 by Satyriconhome

[Lil_red_fire_engine 11,116]

2 hours ago, Bring-Back-Powell said:

This is the part that I don't understand about list management in the AFL.

At the end of 2015, they had a high quality player and person retire who clearly wanted to play on and clearly had some miles left in the leg (had a 37 possession game in his second last match of his career). Instead they retain a player like Terlich who was no where near selection in 2015 and became even further away in 2016. Yes, I know Terlich was under contract but the precedent was set a couple of years earlier with the delisting of Evans.

I wonder if Cross would've made any difference to our infamous losses to Essendon and Carlton last year, just like we question if Jordan Lewis would've made any difference.

Sorry to derail the training thread, but I thought it was poor move letting Cross go.   

We were fortunate we could retain Crossy in a development capacity. In saying that assuming he was not wanting $ and was understanding he may have had to play VFL to allow games into Oliver, Brayshaw and co it was a poor move. My view is he would have played most of the season ahead of Bugg, Michie, Newton, Grimes, M Jones who on most weeks one maybe two were in the 22. 

[Moonshadow 17,675]

Is it ok to go off topic in a training thread when there was no training?

Some posters mentioned in the past that Crossy had lost a bit of leg speed/endurance during his last year with us. Elite running ability was the cornerstone of his game. I noticed him getting caught and get exposed a number of times towards the end and wondered if his time was near. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I seem to recal he had some soft tissue issues in his last playing year as well. I love the guy and wanted to see him go on, we all want what's best for the team, it was Roosy's call and who better to make a the decision. I think it was the right call.

Crossy's running ability at training now, or his stats in the final games, or the 2016 players on our list who struggled are not reason enough for him to have continued IMO. I think Roos and Goodwin wanted to test younger players and find out who could take us forward, perhaps they saw Crossy being of greater value to the team in his current role.

He will have a very successful career in the fitness/training/sports science industry and can be very proud of the playing contribution he has made to the Dogs and the Dees. That he is still in fantastic knick and wants to be involved in the revival of the MFC speaks volumes for his character.

[tiers 2,829]

So training form is now considered to be a useful guide to match form? Spencil and Trenners, who have been soundly and roundly criticised for training too well, are now in the best 22?

Moonshadow recollection is spot on. No disrespect to Crossy but he was becoming a liability in 2015 with his lack of leg speed and unreliable kicking to advantage. He was of limited value in a rapidly improving young team. Good decision by the club and even better decision by Crossy.

[Salems Lot 2,493]

I agree; in fact I happen to believe that the signing and then transitioning of Daniel Cross can be seen as a symptom of how our club has turned itself around.  Retiring when you could possibly have gone an extra year is better than not retiring and having it proven to you that couldn't.  To not only convince him that he is making the right decision but provide a pathway into the next phase in his career is what a great club should be doing.

[hardtack 10,517]

3 hours ago, Satyriconhome said:

I had a chat to Crossy, yes he was bitterly disappointed, but could understand the thinking behind the decision, as Poita said we needed to get games into some of the younger ones

Club gave him a chance tp pursue career off field, he had a few offers, but decided MFC was where he wanted to be

Keeps his hand in playing with his old junior club in Albury when he can

I think you might also find that his contribution off the field may also eclipse what he could have done if he kept on playing.

[Sir Why You Little 36,986]

Crossy was retired at just the right time, he had lost that 1 or 2%. Yes he could have played another year, but there was no point in that.With all our top end young talent coming through Crossy was at the perfect point to teach them rather than take up a list spot.

I am glad the decision was made and equally glad that Crossy decided to stay..When we start winning finals he will still be a part of it

[Dante 2,739]

1 hour ago, tiers said:

So training form is now considered to be a useful guide to match form? Spencil and Trenners, who have been soundly and roundly criticised for training too well, are now in the best 22?

Moonshadow recollection is spot on. No disrespect to Crossy but he was becoming a liability in 2015 with his lack of leg speed and unreliable kicking to advantage. He was of limited value in a rapidly improving young team. Good decision by the club and even better decision by Crossy.

What other form is there in the pre season? If you have two players that are of, roughly, equal ability and one is training really well and the other is coasting through, or is not competing as well, which one gets the nod in the first game. Let's remember, after that, the incumbent has the advantage unless his form falters.

 

Edited January 27, 2017 by Dante

[DubDee 25,674]

3 hours ago, tiers said:

So training form is now considered to be a useful guide to match form? Spencil and Trenners, who have been soundly and roundly criticised for training too well, are now in the best 22?

Moonshadow recollection is spot on. No disrespect to Crossy but he was becoming a liability in 2015 with his lack of leg speed and unreliable kicking to advantage. He was of limited value in a rapidly improving young team. Good decision by the club and even better decision by Crossy.

As the great mark neeld once said

- I don't why we aren't playing well, the boys have been training very well!

[Garbo 1,522]

I asked T Viney why cross was delisted in the off season last year and he's explanation was that his kpi's were down below the level expected of an afl player. Wouldn't elaborate on the specifics 

[DeeSpencer 25,482]

10 hours ago, big_red_fire_engine said:

We were fortunate we could retain Crossy in a development capacity. In saying that assuming he was not wanting $ and was understanding he may have had to play VFL to allow games into Oliver, Brayshaw and co it was a poor move. My view is he would have played most of the season ahead of Bugg, Michie, Newton, Grimes, M Jones who on most weeks one maybe two were in the 22. 

Bugg offered a lot more pace and he's never far from AFL level, he's pretty much the standard depth player. I assume the other 4 you named had contracts whilst Cross didn't. I think that's a pretty standard occruence for list manager. Matt Jones is another with pace who played some decent games breaking the lines last year. 

Viv played 4 games, Newton 2, Grimes 2. I don't see how the difference between them and Crossy would've changed the course of our season.

[Redleg 40,844]

8 hours ago, DeeSpencer said:

Bugg offered a lot more pace and he's never far from AFL level, he's pretty much the standard depth player. I assume the other 4 you named had contracts whilst Cross didn't. I think that's a pretty standard occruence for list manager. Matt Jones is another with pace who played some decent games breaking the lines last year. 

Viv played 4 games, Newton 2, Grimes 2. I don't see how the difference between them and Crossy would've changed the course of our season.

It allowed us to make a final evaluation on them and they are all gone. 

[jnrmac 20,055]

On 1/27/2017 at 11:36 AM, Bring-Back-Powell said:

This is the part that I don't understand about list management in the AFL.

At the end of 2015, they had a high quality player and person retire who clearly wanted to play on and clearly had some miles left in the leg (had a 37 possession game in his second last match of his career). Instead they retain a player like Terlich who was no where near selection in 2015 and became even further away in 2016. Yes, I know Terlich was under contract but the precedent was set a couple of years earlier with the delisting of Evans.

I wonder if Cross would've made any difference to our infamous losses to Essendon and Carlton last year, just like we question if Jordan Lewis would've made any difference.

Sorry to derail the training thread, but I thought it was poor move letting Cross go.   

Facts are that you have to turn the list over. Look at Hawthorn. As unpalatable as it is to ease out champions of the club it has to be done. At the other end of the scale it is a revolving door. Guys like Terlich were lucky they were contracted altho the muppet that gave him 3 years should hang his head in shame. You must have young players coming through and sadly giving games to Cross wouldn't have improved us as a team.

[Demon trucker 1,800]

4 hours ago, jnrmac said:

Facts are that you have to turn the list over. Look at Hawthorn. As unpalatable as it is to ease out champions of the club it has to be done. At the other end of the scale it is a revolving door. Guys like Terlich were lucky they were contracted altho the muppet that gave him 3 years should hang his head in shame. You must have young players coming through and sadly giving games to Cross wouldn't have improved us as a team.

Well he was in the top 5 in the BF when he did get the three year contract 

[Wiseblood 24,637]

Why are we splitting hairs about Daniel Cross?  He was sensational for us, but clearly we made the right decision.  It's not as if we went backwards when he retired.  Strange discussion to have.

[Redleg 40,844]

21 hours ago, jnrmac said:

Facts are that you have to turn the list over. Look at Hawthorn. As unpalatable as it is to ease out champions of the club it has to be done. At the other end of the scale it is a revolving door. Guys like Terlich were lucky they were contracted altho the muppet that gave him 3 years should hang his head in shame. You must have young players coming through and sadly giving games to Cross wouldn't have improved us as a team.

Agree. Who should be more upset, Hawks fans at losing 2nd B & F and champion of the club at 30,  or us losing Crossy at 33?

[xarronn 380]

21 hours ago, jnrmac said:

Facts are that you have to turn the list over. Look at Hawthorn. As unpalatable as it is to ease out champions of the club it has to be done. At the other end of the scale it is a revolving door. Guys like Terlich were lucky they were contracted altho the muppet that gave him 3 years should hang his head in shame. You must have young players coming through and sadly giving games to Cross wouldn't have improved us as a team.

 

16 hours ago, don't make me angry said:

Well he was in the top 5 in the BF when he did get the three year contract 

Because it is the off season and in the interests of accuracy, this is what I recollect about Terlich and his contracts.

Terlich was in the top 5 in the B&F in 2013 - his first year. In his second year he dropped off quite a bit in possessions and was dropped from the team about two thirds of the way through the season, - maybe after suffering a concussion. (His disposal and especially his decision making were of course always questionable, but his courage was not).

He received a two year contract at the end of 2014. This greatly surprised me at the time, particularly when he was not picked for any AFL games in 2015. However I think the club knew that was probably going to be the case, but they wanted players to stiffen up Casey,-  which lacked hardened bodies and had a very poor and demoralizing year in 2014.  They certainly wouldn't have wanted to subject Crossy to a year of VFL football, as well as Terlich being a lot cheaper.

So I reckon there was method in the madness of the muppets who gave him that contract.

 

[Redleg 40,844]

8 hours ago, xarronn said:

 

Because it is the off season and in the interests of accuracy, this is what I recollect about Terlich and his contracts.

Terlich was in the top 5 in the B&F in 2013 - his first year. In his second year he dropped off quite a bit in possessions and was dropped from the team about two thirds of the way through the season, - maybe after suffering a concussion. (His disposal and especially his decision making were of course always questionable, but his courage was not).

He received a two year contract at the end of 2014. This greatly surprised me at the time, particularly when he was not picked for any AFL games in 2015. However I think the club knew that was probably going to be the case, but they wanted players to stiffen up Casey,-  which lacked hardened bodies and had a very poor and demoralizing year in 2014.  They certainly wouldn't have wanted to subject Crossy to a year of VFL football, as well as Terlich being a lot cheaper.

So I reckon there was method in the madness of the muppets who gave him that contract.

 

I think Jnr is correct and he got a 3 year contract in one hit.