Training - Monday 14 November, 2016

[DeeSpencer 25,506]

Didn't stay for all that long.

Later start to let the ground dry out a bit.

Tyson back. In the rehab group doing run throughs with Viney (brief appearance), Vanders, Melksham, Hibberd, Mitch King, JKH, Tom McDonald. Kent and Petracca joined them after the warm up with the main group.

Casey young boys back training. They did what looked like a 10 minute run time trial. ANB (in ripping shape) pulled away from Mitch White late. With a decent gap to Smith ahead of Salem. Then Weideman who isn't exactly bulked up but might be a little more solid and has a big frame to fill, he stuck on well. Then another 30m or so to Oliver who batted around unfortunately. Then the same to Hulett.

Vince was back and in the main group and moving beautifully. They were doing a lot of in close ball movement drills as always. Gathering the ball under pressure then 6 on 3 getting the ball in a 40 by 40 square over to another coach. Brayshaw looked like a standout, clean below his knees and making quick decisions. Maynard impressed with some basketball style vision on a long looping handball.

Watts, Gawn, Garlett, Garland, Pedersen, Lumumba, Trengove the only guys I've yet to see on deck at some stage. Nath Jones the only other who wasn't there today.

Edit: And some mature recruit bloke by the name of Lewis. Yet to see him either.

[DemonDave 1,089]

Thanks for the great observations guys, it's really appreciated in these footy-famine months pre-Christmas.

I haven't read the previous training threads, but does anyone know the timeframe for Mitch King's rehab? Is he due to be playing competitive footy in Nab Cup? Round 1? Round 8?

We could really do with some ruck depth, and while I realise he'll effectively be a first year player given the write off that was last year, be keen to follow his progress..

[Bring-Back-Powell 14,781]

1 hour ago, DeeSpencer said:

Watts, Gawn, Garlett, Garland, Pedersen, Lumumba, Trengove the only guys I've yet to see on deck at some stage. Nath Jones the only other who wasn't there today.

I'm assuming players don't get awarded brownie points for commencing training with the youngsters, otherwise the 3 players highlighted would've been there with bells on, given the poor 2016 they all had (for varying reasons)

Edited November 14, 2016 by Bring-Back-Powell

[MrReims 313]

Not sure if grouping Garlett with Garland and Lumumba is exactly fair. Played some fantastic games, consistency perhaps an issue but far from in the gun in my opinion

[old dee 23,782]

13 minutes ago, MrReims said:

Not sure if grouping Garlett with Garland and Lumumba is exactly fair. Played some fantastic games, consistency perhaps an issue but far from in the gun in my opinion

Perhaps!

[stevethemanjordan 6,952]

Quick question, promise I'm not stirring the pot.

Billy Stretch vs Oscar McDonald. 

We've noticed in pictures Billy is looking a lot thicker and stronger through the upper body which has been backed up by Satyricon who has been told Billy has put on 4kg over the off-season. And I disagree that it's from 'eating more' only. Clearly he ha worked incredibly hard as well.

Billy is noted for his professionalism in the way that he trains. Not everyone on the list shares that trait. Oscar has come back from the off-season and looks like he is in pretty similar physical condition from an upper body perspective to last year, and one would think that increasing his upper body strength would be a priority considering his position and the lack of KPB we have on our list.

I want to know how much of this comes down to how hard the individual works during the off-season? I'm completely aware that not everyone finds it easy to put muscle mass on but I'm also accutely aware that if you're an animal in the way that you approach your training, it happens. Fyfe is an example. Our own Billy another. I also know that players have individualised programs but I do imagine both Billy and Oscar (as well as a host of others) need to be bigger and stronger next year.

Maybe I'm assuming coaches will say something they shouldn't. But I find it interesting that Billy is the only one who looks to have visibly changed his body shape over the off-season, given he is said to be one of our most professional and elite trainers.

 

 

Edited November 14, 2016 by stevethemanjordan

[Bring-Back-Powell 14,781]

1 hour ago, MrReims said:

Not sure if grouping Garlett with Garland and Lumumba is exactly fair. Played some fantastic games, consistency perhaps an issue but far from in the gun in my opinion

I thought Garlett had a poor season by his standards.

Mixed brilliant games (Richmond and Adelaide 4 goal hauls) with downright stinkers (Hawthorn and GC 0 goal 5 possesion games) and games where he was visibly disinterested (Geelong).    

[Satyriconhome 10,734]

7 minutes ago, stevethemanjordan said:

Quick question, promise I'm not stirring the pot.

Billy Stretch vs Oscar McDonald. 

We've noticed in pictures Billy is looking a lot thicker and stronger through the upper body which has been backed up by Satyricon who has been told Billy has put on 4kg over the off-season. And I disagree that it's from 'eating more' only. Clearly he ha worked incredibly hard as well.

Billy is noted for his professionalism in the way that he trains. Not everyone on the list shares that trait. Oscar has come back from the off-season and looks like he is in pretty similar physical condition from an upper body perspective to last year, and one would think that increasing his upper body strength would be a priority considering his position and the lack of KPB we have on our list.

I want to know how much of this comes down to how hard the individual works during the off-season? I'm completely aware that not everyone finds it easy to put muscle mass on but I'm also accutely aware that if you're an animal in the way that you approach your training, it happens. Fyfe is an example. Our own Billy another. I also know that players have individualised programs but I do imagine both Billy and Oscar (as well as a host of others) need to be bigger and stronger next year.

Maybe I'm assuming coaches will say something they shouldn't. But I find it interesting that Billy is the only one who looks to have visibly changed his body shape over the off-season, given he is said to be one of our most professional and elite trainers.

 

 

Think Billy stood out because he has noticeably grown, Salem has put on a bit of muscle as well, at work today so didn't get a chance to ask him

Brayshaw is in exceptional shape as well, just not 'muscular; if that makes sense

Petracca was not joking when he told me he has to 'lean' down, so we may see a 'slimmer' Petracca

Think with the 'big guys' they have to be a bit more careful, on how they build them,  I know they want at least another 5kg on Oscar, assume he is hitting the serious weights now, his brother has never looked like the Incredible Hulk and doesn't get knocked around much, think footy is going away from big forward versus big defender wrestling

[DeeSpencer 25,506]

27 minutes ago, stevethemanjordan said:

Quick question, promise I'm not stirring the pot.

Billy Stretch vs Oscar McDonald. 

We've noticed in pictures Billy is looking a lot thicker and stronger through the upper body which has been backed up by Satyricon who has been told Billy has put on 4kg over the off-season. And I disagree that it's from 'eating more' only. Clearly he ha worked incredibly hard as well.

Billy is noted for his professionalism in the way that he trains. Not everyone on the list shares that trait. Oscar has come back from the off-season and looks like he is in pretty similar physical condition from an upper body perspective to last year, and one would think that increasing his upper body strength would be a priority considering his position and the lack of KPB we have on our list.

I want to know how much of this comes down to how hard the individual works during the off-season? I'm completely aware that not everyone finds it easy to put muscle mass on but I'm also accutely aware that if you're an animal in the way that you approach your training, it happens. Fyfe is an example. Our own Billy another. I also know that players have individualised programs but I do imagine both Billy and Oscar (as well as a host of others) need to be bigger and stronger next year.

Maybe I'm assuming coaches will say something they shouldn't. But I find it interesting that Billy is the only one who looks to have visibly changed his body shape over the off-season, given he is said to be one of our most professional and elite trainers.

 

 

Weideman and Oscar both look a bit stronger to me, not a heap but a difference. ANB is in ripping knick, he definitely looks stronger. Brayshaw looks a lot leaner. Hunt a little bigger but he made a big transformation last summer. Wagner a bit more cut. Hogan looks great, so does Dom. Mitch King is more defined and looks like a young colt now.

Stretch was very fit and presumably isn't growing taller. Any muscle added to his skinny frame would stand out. 

Otherwise going through the list we just don't have a lot of skinny kids who need to add muscle.

There might be some impatience with fans towards Oscar and Weid but I think they are making progress. Weid's about to do his first preseason and fitness and core strength is more important that bulk. Oscar could do with a few more kilos but Tom doesn't get pushed around and he isn't a heavy key defender, assuming similar strength with a similar body type the McDonald's might be the strong lean type of athlete. Given the way footy is going and our game plan for zone defending I think the coaches would be happy with Oscar getting fitter and stronger in the core than too worried about bulk.

[fr_ap 2,464]

Disappointed to hear Oliver is still battling in the running. I was really hoping he would put in a ton of work over the break.

I fear that despite being the most gifted of the lot IMO, he doesnt appear to have the will and drive that some of the others do (albeit early days). I would hate to see him not reach the potential he clearly has as he could absolutely tear the comp apart one day i think. 

I know he wasnt in all the elite draft programs and is a bit of a lad (I know from a source at the club he copped a few sprays from roosy about his early behaviour), so hoping he's just coming from a bit further behind and will catch up in these areas.

[Mad_Melbourne 877]

23 minutes ago, fr_ap said:

Disappointed to hear Oliver is still battling in the running. I was really hoping he would put in a ton of work over the break.

I fear that despite being the most gifted of the lot IMO, he doesnt appear to have the will and drive that some of the others do (albeit early days). I would hate to see him not reach the potential he clearly has as he could absolutely tear the comp apart one day i think. 

I know he wasnt in all the elite draft programs and is a bit of a lad (I know from a source at the club he copped a few sprays from roosy about his early behaviour), so hoping he's just coming from a bit further behind and will catch up in these areas.

What a shame that a second year player whose running was never really a strength is battling opposed to much better aerobic athletes. 

Not a worry in the world, at the end of the day all players should be increasing their running capacity and I have no doubts that he is a hard worker, as shown by his ability to get himself into considerably better knick leading to the draft period and ultimately why we were confident in drafting him. 

[Satyriconhome 10,734]

8 minutes ago, Mad_Melbourne said:

What a shame that a second year player whose running was never really a strength is battling opposed to much better aerobic athletes. 

Not a worry in the world, at the end of the day all players should be increasing their running capacity and I have no doubts that he is a hard worker, as shown by his ability to get himself into considerably better knick leading to the draft period and ultimately why we were confident in drafting him. 

Again the players all have individual programs, the first run is a blow the cobwebs out and not break young players on the first day back, I would have been flabbergasted if Oliver and Hulett had 'starred',

[stuie 7,374]

44 minutes ago, fr_ap said:

Disappointed to hear Oliver is still battling in the running. I was really hoping he would put in a ton of work over the break.

I fear that despite being the most gifted of the lot IMO, he doesnt appear to have the will and drive that some of the others do (albeit early days). I would hate to see him not reach the potential he clearly has as he could absolutely tear the comp apart one day i think. 

I know he wasnt in all the elite draft programs and is a bit of a lad (I know from a source at the club he copped a few sprays from roosy about his early behaviour), so hoping he's just coming from a bit further behind and will catch up in these areas.

Who says he didn't put work in? Becoming an elite runner will probably take him a few preseasons rather than a few weeks.

Don't forget he has come off OP as well.

 

[Lil_red_fire_engine 11,122]

1 hour ago, fr_ap said:

Disappointed to hear Oliver is still battling in the running. I was really hoping he would put in a ton of work over the break.

I fear that despite being the most gifted of the lot IMO, he doesnt appear to have the will and drive that some of the others do (albeit early days). I would hate to see him not reach the potential he clearly has as he could absolutely tear the comp apart one day i think. 

I know he wasnt in all the elite draft programs and is a bit of a lad (I know from a source at the club he copped a few sprays from roosy about his early behaviour), so hoping he's just coming from a bit further behind and will catch up in these areas.

I dont think Olivers tank or lack of has anything to do with his will. Its just not natural to him, as long as he continues to improve year on year that is enough for me.

[Satyriconhome 10,734]

The club expects the players to come back ready to train, the fact that Goodwin has them using the footy shows that all if not most are ready to go, the standouts are the ones that have gone the extra mile, Hogan, who had a year to frustrate last year has come back ready to fire and thanks to Deespencer's report, ANB who if he is to displace anybody in the middle has to start NOW, and Brayshaw, who made the mistake of training with Nate Jones, the rest are obviously ready to go, assume Oliver and Hulett after a couple of sessions back will be the same. Kent and Kennedy both looked 'awful' the first day, working into it now

Edited November 14, 2016 by Satyriconhome

[Wiseblood 24,637]

1 hour ago, fr_ap said:

Disappointed to hear Oliver is still battling in the running. I was really hoping he would put in a ton of work over the break.

I fear that despite being the most gifted of the lot IMO, he doesnt appear to have the will and drive that some of the others do (albeit early days). I would hate to see him not reach the potential he clearly has as he could absolutely tear the comp apart one day i think. 

I know he wasnt in all the elite draft programs and is a bit of a lad (I know from a source at the club he copped a few sprays from roosy about his early behaviour), so hoping he's just coming from a bit further behind and will catch up in these areas.

I think you've answered your own question there, fr_ap.  The bolded part of your response is what we need to remember - not only is it very early days in his career, but it's early days in the second pre-season of his career.  He lost quite a bit of weight in the final season of his TAC Cup career, something he worked incredibly hard to do, so getting a 'tank' is something that may take him some time.

I have every confidence he will reach the levels that we all know we can, it might just take a little patience.

[brendan 3,434]

I think it's great we are using the footy from day 1, where on the news tonight I see Collingwood have gone away to run up a mountain, I know what I would rather be doing 

[Satyriconhome 10,734]

6 minutes ago, brendan said:

I think it's great we are using the footy from day 1, where on the news tonight I see Collingwood have gone away to run up a mountain, I know what I would rather be doing 

Yes I was pleasantly surprised last Wednesday when the footy was produced and they started doing drills, even under Roos it was a couple of weeks of pounding up and down Andersons Hill

[Moonshadow 17,675]

2 hours ago, brendan said:

I think it's great we are using the footy from day 1, where on the news tonight I see Collingwood have gone away to run up a mountain, I know what I would rather be doing 

I hope Collingwood's mountain has an active volcano at its peak.

Keep running lads, nearly there!

[fr_ap 2,464]

50 minutes ago, Wiseblood said:

I think you've answered your own question there, fr_ap.  The bolded part of your response is what we need to remember - not only is it very early days in his career, but it's early days in the second pre-season of his career.  He lost quite a bit of weight in the final season of his TAC Cup career, something he worked incredibly hard to do, so getting a 'tank' is something that may take him some time.

I have every confidence he will reach the levels that we all know we can, it might just take a little patience.

Appreciate the considered response and that someone could see where im coming from. Im not saying he has a problem or potting the kid, just that i wish for his improvement to be as fast as it can be, because he could be absolutely elite and i believe key to our improvement. He is capable of moments not many in the league can produce. This is what we need more of  and I actually love him to bits.

However, you can bet that there are players in the league in his bracket who are doing extra (and he may be too, I dont know). Whether that is Parish, Mills or Dunkley, thats what he is competing against, no point glossing over it.

We've all seen that the natural talent isnt always enough (sylvia says hello). We've been burnt before so i proceed with caution. The OP is a valid point. As someone who has never been able to get rid of it, I have immense respect for anyone who has.

Judging by the responses i must have struck a nerve? 

[Adam The God 30,136]

3 hours ago, stevethemanjordan said:

Quick question, promise I'm not stirring the pot.

Billy Stretch vs Oscar McDonald. 

We've noticed in pictures Billy is looking a lot thicker and stronger through the upper body which has been backed up by Satyricon who has been told Billy has put on 4kg over the off-season. And I disagree that it's from 'eating more' only. Clearly he ha worked incredibly hard as well.

Billy is noted for his professionalism in the way that he trains. Not everyone on the list shares that trait. Oscar has come back from the off-season and looks like he is in pretty similar physical condition from an upper body perspective to last year, and one would think that increasing his upper body strength would be a priority considering his position and the lack of KPB we have on our list.

I want to know how much of this comes down to how hard the individual works during the off-season? I'm completely aware that not everyone finds it easy to put muscle mass on but I'm also accutely aware that if you're an animal in the way that you approach your training, it happens. Fyfe is an example. Our own Billy another. I also know that players have individualised programs but I do imagine both Billy and Oscar (as well as a host of others) need to be bigger and stronger next year.

Maybe I'm assuming coaches will say something they shouldn't. But I find it interesting that Billy is the only one who looks to have visibly changed his body shape over the off-season, given he is said to be one of our most professional and elite trainers.

 

 

As a guy who's six foot six and had trouble putting on muscle as a teenager, I'd say it's a lot easier to put muscle on a smaller frame than it is a much larger frame.

When I got to my early 20s, I started being able to put muscle on a bit more and now in my late 20s it's even easier. I suspect Oscar is struggling with his frame in a similar way. Doesn't mean he's not a lot stronger though. I used to be able to bench 95kg as a teenager and much to my annoyance it barely showed.

[Kumamoto_Ken 1,531]

3 hours ago, stevethemanjordan said:

Quick question, promise I'm not stirring the pot.

Billy Stretch vs Oscar McDonald. 

We've noticed in pictures Billy is looking a lot thicker and stronger through the upper body which has been backed up by Satyricon who has been told Billy has put on 4kg over the off-season. And I disagree that it's from 'eating more' only. Clearly he ha worked incredibly hard as well.

Billy is noted for his professionalism in the way that he trains. Not everyone on the list shares that trait. Oscar has come back from the off-season and looks like he is in pretty similar physical condition from an upper body perspective to last year, and one would think that increasing his upper body strength would be a priority considering his position and the lack of KPB we have on our list.

I want to know how much of this comes down to how hard the individual works during the off-season? I'm completely aware that not everyone finds it easy to put muscle mass on but I'm also accutely aware that if you're an animal in the way that you approach your training, it happens. Fyfe is an example. Our own Billy another. I also know that players have individualised programs but I do imagine both Billy and Oscar (as well as a host of others) need to be bigger and stronger next year.

Maybe I'm assuming coaches will say something they shouldn't. But I find it interesting that Billy is the only one who looks to have visibly changed his body shape over the off-season, given he is said to be one of our most professional and elite trainers.

 

 

Rob Jackson posted a video of Oscar doing upper body work three weeks ago, so he was working on it. 

No idea on the volume though. 

[Biffen 12,940]

9 minutes ago, Kumamoto_Ken said:

Rob Jackson posted a video of Oscar doing upper body work three weeks ago, so he was working on it. 

No idea on the volume though. 

I hear he has a pucture of David Bowie from the early 70s that he puts up in the gym as an aspirational physique.

[DeeSpencer 25,506]

14 minutes ago, Kumamoto_Ken said:

Rob Jackson posted a video of Oscar doing upper body work three weeks ago, so he was working on it. 

No idea on the volume though. 

Yep I was planning to post that for Steve's benefit. 

 

 

 

[DeeSpencer 25,506]

55 minutes ago, fr_ap said:

Appreciate the considered response and that someone could see where im coming from. Im not saying he has a problem or potting the kid, just that i wish for his improvement to be as fast as it can be, because he could be absolutely elite and i believe key to our improvement. He is capable of moments not many in the league can produce. This is what we need more of  and I actually love him to bits.

However, you can bet that there are players in the league in his bracket who are doing extra (and he may be too, I dont know). Whether that is Parish, Mills or Dunkley, thats what he is competing against, no point glossing over it.

We've all seen that the natural talent isnt always enough (sylvia says hello). We've been burnt before so i proceed with caution. The OP is a valid point. As someone who has never been able to get rid of it, I have immense respect for anyone who has.

Judging by the responses i must have struck a nerve? 

I think it's a more than valid point that you made and I was a bit disappointed as well. We know Weid's didn't have a huge tank before being draft and he was running well and put a gap to Clarry and never ended up too far from Salem. The trade off for Oliver battling is that big Sam is running well.

We also know Oliver had a long season starting the first NAB challenge game and going all the way through until being our best in the Casey VFL grand final in late September. So he's only had about 6 weeks and he deserves a mental and physical break in that time. He can do a lot between now and March to improve and it may have just been an off day.

Last year Brayshaw came off a big first year injured and then struggled with more injuries and his weight and lost most of the season really. This off season he got things together and seems to be in far better condition. Hogan is looking fit. Petracca is training instead of  rehabbing a foot/knee injury. I think these kids are on the right track and Oliver will get there too.