Areas of weakness...

[Adam The God 30,411]

I wasn't sure this quite fitted into any of the currently opened threads and it certainly requires a bit of ongoing analysis. This is not a discussion simply for this week, but for the remaining weeks of the season. It's about measuring improvement and consistency individually and as a team.

I know it's still early in the season, but I thought we should discuss the list going forward. Which areas still require the greatest work?

Let's break this down into four areas:

Backs, Forwards, Mids and Rucks.

There is a disclaimer here. There are some areas on our list that require players to gain experience before we can really tell what we're still missing. However, there are other areas on the list that have become obvious decisions.

BACKS

So our troublesome backline. The area of the ground that people seem to be venting most about.

It's interesting that in our leaner times, we seemed flushed for KPDs and now when we are finally seeing an upturn in form, we appear to lack height, skill and strength at the contest and in the air.

KPDs

T McDonald, O McDonald, L Dunn, C Garland and then maybe S Frost.

T McDonald: continues to show his ordinary disposal and decision making. He's a great mark and spoiler, but appears not to understand the zonal defence we're playing. Either that or he's directly disobeying team instructions. From a member of the leadership group, this would be troublesome.

O McDonald: too inexperienced to tell yet. Time is on his side. I thought he played a really good first half against GWS and showed he could play at the level, despite some of the negative commentary on him post match. A slightly better kick than his brother and is capable of a good spoil too.

L Dunn: a beautiful kick, but an inconsistent experienced player. We should be seeing the consistency from Dunn that we see from Nev Jetta. He doesn't have to be a world-beater, but a role player. He's even inconsistent at this. How long does Dunn have left?

C Garland: versatile on his day, he can lock down smalls or talls, but has struggled to really 'own' his position since 2012-2013. He is too timid in defence and this flows onto his inability to provide offence off half back. Without attack he won't last in this team.

S Frost: was recruited as KPD, but the club has yet to use him in defence. He has great size and terrific agility for a player of his size. In the long term, the club will be hoping he can hold down a KPD spot and shut down players such as Daniher, T Lynch and Moore. These really agile tall forwards who will rule the game in the coming decade. Unfortunately, Frost still needs to learn the game. I'd be playing him back at the moment, but perhaps they don't want to have to teach him his defensive role and his defensive role within the press at the same time? Sam's still young though and time is on his side.

But for mine, that's a lean list. There's question marks over every single one. No wonder everyone is saying go after Hurley. Even if we were to land him (unlikely), looking at this list, he's not going to solve our problems on his own back there. 

Mid-sized/small defenders

N Jetta, J Wagner, J Hunt, C Salem, H Lumumba, B Vince, N Jones, J Trengove, B Stretch, J Melksham, J Grimes, D Terlich

N Jetta: this guy is probably the most consistent performer at our club, outside of Jonesy. Not a world beater, but a Paul Roos special - a consistent role player. You know what you'll get from him every week. He's a gem.

J Wagner: appears poised and composed under pressure. His kicking is neat and he's not pushed off the ball too easily. He has really surprised me. Like a few others, time is on his side. It'll be interesting to see how he develops throughout 2016.

J Hunt: his speed and willingness to take on the game from half back is exciting. Give him 50 more games and he'll iron out some of those decision-making kinks. Has shown he can perform a decent Jared Rivers spoil too.

C Salem: not convinced this is his best position. Time will tell. His kicking is a real asset for our half back line though, but he still doesn't get it enough. There are questions over his defensive capabilities, but they can be taught and he's certainly capable of being tough in the contest. A midfield role in the future could beckon.

H Lumumba: despite some posters still being down him, Heritier's willingness to take the game on and get us moving from half back is vital to a flourishing Melbourne. Hopefully Hunt can learn a thing or two from him. 'H' isn't a long term solution, but will play another 2 or 3 seasons for us.

B Vince: he hasn't proved as effective off half back as I'd hoped, but he certainly has the poise and kicking skills to play a role back there. He might have to get used to it, as positions in the midfield over the next few years will be toughly contested. Bernie's managed to become a pretty consistent player and we need all of those we can get. 

N Jones: with the reduced rotations I'd be playing Jonesy off half back more than we have. As the younger brigade takes over, like Vince, he'll need to be able to play across half back and half forward too.

J Trengove: his best position going forward is half back, IMO. A more efficient Daniel Cross. Setting up the play. A bit Hodge-like. He's a great decision maker, a lovely kick and a good reader of the play. Unfortunately, his leg speed won't be an asset, but I think he brings enough qualities that we lack back there, to find a position in the best 22 going forward.

B Stretch: Billy will probably play anywhere between half forward, the wing and half back. If he can strengthen his inside game, he could form part of our midfield group, but my inclination would be to play him off half back. I'd be playing him in Salem's position. He may also challenge Hunt's position back there. Pity he's not a better kick, but it's certainly not a flaw of his. He also has a bit of time on his side.

J Melksham: was never a fan of him at Essendon. He could be quite the bunny. His decision making and disposal often leaves a lot to be desired. But he can play really good footy. If Goodwin and McCartney encourage him to bring a consistency to his game, he will have a place going forward. His kicking is questionable though and we really lack good ball users back there.

J Grimes: a terrific off field leader, but a very limited on field player. I never quite understood the hype for him. He is fearless at the contest and disciplined, but simply doesn't have the tools to make it at this level.

D Terlich: a stopgap player in leaner times. He, like Grimes, makes far too many errors and off half back, no side can carry that.

It may be too early to tell on some, but my current fear is that we lack enough really good ball users on the list. Salem, Vince...? 

MIDFIELD

It's funny how things can change so quickly. Whilst you can never rest of your laurels and should always keep building depth and strength to the most important area on your list, our midfield is incredibly exciting. Let's see where we're at in three seasons time when these guys will all have played 50+ games.

J Viney, N Jones, B Vince, D Tyson, A Brayshaw, C Oliver, C Petracca, T Bugg, B Kennedy, B Newton, A Vandenberg, M Jones

J Viney: Jack (like Jetta, Jones and Vince) has found a consistency in his game and if he continues his 2016 form, we'll have an All Australian and potential Brownlow Medallist by the end of the year. Leads the club in all the key midfield stats and just never stops. The sort of guy we want all our players aspiring to be like.

N Jones: as noted, a consistent ball winner. He isn't the most talented guy on the list, but must have a heart as strong as an ox to withstand the rubbish he's been through and thrive in it.

B Vince: since crossing from Adelaide, has become one of our two go-to midfielders. Fortunately, with Viney's rise, there is less reliance on Bernie, but his ability to kick crucial goals is an important asset for our midfield group.

D Tyson: having just passed 50 games, Dom is one of our midfielders with the biggest upside for mine. A natural ball winner and like Bernie, a goal kicking mid. If he can find consistency he will be an A grader. Bookmark it.

A Brayshaw: such a smart footballer. He doesn't need to get it a lot to have a big impact. I would, however, like to see him improve on numbers. His kicking on either side of his body is all class. Usually involved in at least a couple of goals every week he plays. Time is on Gus' side and given experience, he should find more of it and become a really damaging midfielder.

C Oliver: the guy I am most excited about on our list. People talk about Petracca getting people in the gates, this guy does it for me. Another natural ball winner (isn't it fantastic that we are drafting natural see-ball-get-ball types now?!), whose spacial awareness is the best I've seen from a young MFC midfielder in my lifetime. He is a freak. If his clearance-winning ability wasn't exciting enough, he is also capable of kicking goals. If we're serious about contending for a flag one day, we need goal kicking mids and we're stockpiling them.

C Petracca: looking forward to seeing this guy get going at senior level. I hope he can get through the rest of 2016 and consolidate this next year. An exciting prospect who showed enough in his first outing. Like Viney and Hogan, Truck is another guy who simply hates losing and will tell his team mates about it. He has that explosiveness from stoppages that (dare I say it) reminds me of P Dangerfield and even D Shiel. He could be anything in 50 games time.

T Bugg: a role player. Tough, lippy and self-confident. I'm not his biggest fan, but if he can find a suitable level of consistency, there'll be a place for him over the next two seasons. I'd start by tidying up his disposal. 

B Kennedy: see T Bugg. I'd describe him as a more natural footballer than Bugg and a better user. There's a bit of B McGlynn in Kennedy too. I see Kennedy as a slightly longer term prospect than Bugg, but he still has to find that consistency. 

B Newton: I'm not sure he'll get another look in at senior level. He's not tough enough at the contest and as of last year, struggled to run both ways. Not a bad goal kicker from midfield, but I'm not sold on him.

A Vandenberg: It'll be interesting to see Vanders come back from injury. On his day last season, he was a real barometer of our team - his physicality was really important. We're a tougher side now (even 6 games later) and a few of our guys bring that, so what else does Vanders have? I want to see him improve his kicking, otherwise he won't be more than depth, IMO.

M Jones: I've been impressed with Jones' ability to hit targets more regularly and make better decisions. I suspect he's fitter than he's ever been and this has really helped him. He's 29 this year, so he's not a long term solution, but his run at times this season has been important. Another year on the list potentially.

FORWARDS

KPFs

J Hogan, C Dawes, C Pedersen, S Weideman, J Watts, S Frost, L Hulett, M King

J Hogan: for a bloke in his second year, he is astounding. Funnily enough, he's been pretty ordinary so far this year, but then he comes out and kicks 7. If Jesse can find some consistency this year, we'll be an even more potent attacking force. Let's wait for that TV deal and then see if we can build our future forwardline around Jesse.

C Dawes: offers good leadership and work rate on the field, but marking isn't his strong suit and he doesn't hit the scoreboard enough. At the moment, he might struggle to get a new contract next year. The only reason they'd keep him is to provide depth and competition for the second KPF spot.

C Pedersen: is a great mark on his day, has improved his work rate, but still goes missing too often. A solid enough stopgap until Weideman or Hulett comes along though.

S Weideman: reads the play well, is a good mark and a nice kick. I'm hoping he forms a Lloyd/Lucas-like partnership with Hogan. He's still two or three seasons away from really being able to impact an AFL contest though.

J Watts: has shown he belongs at this level now and he has a spot in our best 22. The most important thing for Jack is to maintain his consistency, otherwise he'll be on the outer again.

S Frost: is being played out of position, but still does some clever things that lead to goals and has done so a handful of times this year. I'm willing to concede he should deliver more on game day, but I suspect he's building to it.

L Hulett: I've only seen him live once at Casey a couple of weeks ago. He'll be competing with Weideman and Watts for those two positions. I see him as the Weideman/Hogan insurance policy. If Hogan leaves, we've got something to work with - if Weideman doesn't come on, we've got something to work on.

M King: I haven't seen Mitch play, so I can't comment. What are people's thoughts? Obviously, another KPF prospect with the ability to play that important second ruck position as well.

With Jesse we obviously have a player who we can build a forwardline around. It's the second KPF that we're really in search of. Dawes and Pedersen are stopgaps. You also get the sense Frost is being played forward for his pace and ability to implement an aggressive forward press, rather than traditional KPF traits like contested marking. So along with Watts, who seems to have found his position as the third tall, the hope is Weideman. Hulett and King are insurance plans and depths at this stage, IMO.

Mid-sized/small forwards

J Harmes, D Kent, J Kennedy-Harris, A Neal-Bullen, J Garlett

J Harmes: seems to have ability and neat disposal. His tackling pressure is good when he's on, but if he's going to be more than a fringe player, he needs to develop consistency. He's another Roos role player.

D Kent: I haven't been his biggest fan, but he was good against Collingwood, Richmond and for a half against North. He's still too inconsistent. The only reason he's slightly ahead of Harmes is his ability to hit the scoreboard. I liked his work rate against Richmond and he really managed to get himself involved in the play. Let's see if he can find some consistency this year. There's certainly a spot or two there for another pacy, pressurising small forward, with an ability to hit the scoreboard.

J Kennedy-Harris: Jay is a neat kick and has nice agility, but at the same time, he's not overly quick and at his height, that will go against him at AFL level. I'm not convinced he'll make it.

A Neal-Bullen: Alex obviously has the potential to move into the midfield in time and his numbers at VFL level have been impressive. There's a slight question over his foot speed for mine, but he can find it and what he may not have anaerobically, he makes up for aerobically. He's another who knows where the goals are. I was down at Geelong last year for that terrific win (one of my absolute favourites too!) and he seemed to know where they were whenever he had it. I'd like to see him a bit more at AFL level this year, before making a call. I suspect he'll be another fringe best 22, but he does have the tools to be something more.

J Garlett: since his move from Carlton, Jeffy has been a reasonably consistent livewire. He has that x-factor that we lacked for so long. Even in a forwardline with Hogan and now Petracca, Jeffy will still excite us some more over the next four to five seasons. I've also liked his ability to go into the midfield when we've needed it or when he's been struggling to get into the game in the forwardline. Unfortunately, it didn't seem to work against St Kilda, but I think he'll bounce back this week.

When you break down the list of small/medium forwards, you realise we're actually quite light on in this area as well. More competition in this area of the ground certainly wouldn't go astray. 

RUCKS

This is probably an area on our list that we will again look to address at the end of 2016. We are distinctly light on for rucks. When you look at a side like Geelong over the past few years, they had five or six really promising ruckmen on their senior list. However, probably the best place for developing ruckmen is the rookie list.

M Gawn, J Spencer, M King

M Gawn: Max has found a level of consistency that has elevated him into the top echelon of league ruckmen. His marking around the ground has also improved out of sight. It will be interesting to see how he develops with another 22 games under his belt this year.

J Spencer: much maligned is 'Big Jake', but if he can improve his kicking and tap work, I reckon he'll be a solid back up to Maxy for a few years.

M King: having not seen him play, there is certainly a spot gaping for that ruck/forward position, alongside Hogan and hopefully Weideman.

FINAL THOUGHTS

Having run through the entire senior list, it seems to me that within a year, we may well have two different KPDs playing in our backline. What of McDonald? Can we lure Hurley? Does Frost go back? Where does OMac sit?

There are also a number of question marks over our smaller/mid-sized defenders and their foot skills. We need elite ball users back there, particularly with our game style. Do we draft them in/hit the FA market hard or will a few of the blokes we already have come good?

The midfield is probably the most exciting area of the ground for me. In just three off seasons, Taylor, Roos and Mahoney have transformed our midfield from third world to B grade, with A grade potential. Add a Prestia and/or a Neale at the end of 2016 and we're looking very good. Remember that West Coast side that won the flag with an ordinary forwardline, but gun midfield? Yeah, well, it all happens in the midfield.

Now I say it all happens in the midfield and it does, but imagine also having a once in a generation CHF. Well, tick. If we can find the right mix inside forward fifty to compliment Hogan, we become very dangerous.

The next step is getting the team defence right, because obviously that will help out our defenders no end. So 2016 is clearly the testing ground for Goodwin's aggressive 18 man press. The coaching staff will implement this stridently and seemingly without exception - that means don't expect a lot of moves on game day and expect further frustration, until our players get this system right.

With this coaching philosophy, Roos can take the heat when it goes bad and come the start of 2017, we'll have had a season working on this team defence and hopefully be ready to take on September.

[jnrmac 20,186]

Good solid post. 

It seemed our backline was Ok when we were being pummelled every week. Whether they are now not up to it collectively or whether they are still learning the new way to play is interesting. Its clear we want to launch more of our attacks from the backline and its clear that the backs are pushing up to the contest. That demands different skills which they may/may not have, Certainly will demand different levels of fitness.

We cannot have players in the backline that cannot distribute by hand or by foot. Puts too much pressure on the rest of the side. We also need the mids to play up the ground to assist both in defence and in defending the ball in our fwd 50.

The plan doesn't tolerate weakness because it will be exploited as we have seen. Personally we are leaking too many goals for my liking. The jury is out on the playing group.

 

 

[Adam The God 30,411]

45 minutes ago, jnrmac said:

Good solid post. 

It seemed our backline was Ok when we were being pummelled every week. Whether they are now not up to it collectively or whether they are still learning the new way to play is interesting. Its clear we want to launch more of our attacks from the backline and its clear that the backs are pushing up to the contest. That demands different skills which they may/may not have, Certainly will demand different levels of fitness.

We cannot have players in the backline that cannot distribute by hand or by foot. Puts too much pressure on the rest of the side. We also need the mids to play up the ground to assist both in defence and in defending the ball in our fwd 50.

The plan doesn't tolerate weakness because it will be exploited as we have seen. Personally we are leaking too many goals for my liking. The jury is out on the playing group.

There are players like Dunn, Garland, Grimes, Terlich etc that are either simply not good enough or far too inconsistent for players that have been around as long as they have. I worry that continued exposure to these players will taint our younger players. Tom McDonald is a worry because he's either learned bad traits or cannot eradicate bad traits he always had.

So the backline is a big problem. As for the forward half, we need more depth there. We need another Jeff Garlett. A speedy player with x-factor, who regularly puts on forward pressure.

Then there's the lack of reinforcements for Gawn and Spencer.

I suspect that this is because we've simply focused on getting as much talent as we can into the midfield first. We'll then turn to strengthening these areas in the coming two to three years.

Edited May 4, 2016 by AdamFarr

[DeeSpencer 26,081]

In no particular order:

1. Wing - need another elite runner (Stretch aside) to push Matt Jones/Bugg
2. Tall defender - Dunn and Garland are on the way out, need Oscar or Frost to come on or a trade/draft. Hullett to CHB at Casey must be an option once he finds his feet forward
3. 3rd tall defender - think Wagner (and Lumumba) are really a 4th option, another 190-195cm two way player is vital, these guys are hard to find.
4. Ruck/forward - Pedersen/Dawes in this role just aren't up to it long term, Max King hasn't stepped up
5. Back up ruck - someone other than Spencer

I feel pretty good about our inside mids, most of the forward line and even our small/medium backs have impressed me this year despite some hiccups. 

I think you can usually find a ruck when your window opens, so my priority would be adding running skillful players, preferably with a bit of height to fill that wing and 3rd defensive spot.

 

 

[Adam The God 30,411]

21 minutes ago, DeeSpencer said:

In no particular order:

1. Wing - need another elite runner (Stretch aside) to push Matt Jones/Bugg
2. Tall defender - Dunn and Garland are on the way out, need Oscar or Frost to come on or a trade/draft. Hullett to CHB at Casey must be an option once he finds his feet forward
3. 3rd tall defender - think Wagner (and Lumumba) are really a 4th option, another 190-195cm two way player is vital, these guys are hard to find.
4. Ruck/forward - Pedersen/Dawes in this role just aren't up to it long term, Max King hasn't stepped up
5. Back up ruck - someone other than Spencer

I feel pretty good about our inside mids, most of the forward line and even our small/medium backs have impressed me this year despite some hiccups. 

I think you can usually find a ruck when your window opens, so my priority would be adding running skillful players, preferably with a bit of height to fill that wing and 3rd defensive spot.

Agree with all of that. I'd say you can often find those skillful running players when your window opens too.

[rpfc 28,779]

We need skill out of the backline.

We need skill on the outside of contests.

We need a decent second ruck who is predominantly our 2nd tall forward.

[DeeSpencer 26,081]

2 minutes ago, AdamFarr said:

Agree with all of that. I'd say you can often find those skillful running players when your window opens too.

They play better in better sides so usually get attracted there, that's my theory anyway. 

We could do with the Lewis Jetta and Callum SInclair trade, except for both of them!

 

[DeeSpencer 26,081]

Endurance is probably the overall gap in the list as well, but hopefully one we can develop. 

Petracca, Brayshaw, Oliver have all been drafted high knowing they have work to do on endurance. 

I think Tyson's made improvement but still needs an injury free preseason. Same for Salem, Kent, Ben Kennedy. Watts, Hogan, Weed as well, particularly if they are to play in the same side.

Hopefully we have the right fitness staff and probably just as importantly hopefully we have the right culture this time around!

[Adam The God 30,411]

14 minutes ago, DeeSpencer said:

They play better in better sides so usually get attracted there, that's my theory anyway. 

We could do with the Lewis Jetta and Callum SInclair trade, except for both of them!

There might be something to that. 

[DDEE 25]

This is indeed an in-depth analysis Adam and has taken you some time to compile, thank you. The only thing I can add is to do with the ages of the players on our list. As I calculate it, right now we have 19 players who are 21 years or less. Of those 19, 11 have played less than 5 games. (5 of those 11 have played zero games). The other 7 of the 19 are getting regular games now and have 137 games between them, that's an average of less than 20 games each. They are Hoges, Salem, Gussie, Stretcher, JKH, Nibbler and Harmes (ok, not all getting regular games!). Also, Viney, Kent and Benny K are only a year ahead of those guys. So the way I see it, when all these players (most of them hopefully) get to 50 or 80 games over the next two or three years, many of the older or fringe players will have dropped off (Terlich, Matt Jones etc etc), new players will have been brought in, and new draft picks will make up the balance. I reckon this will be the real turning point for us. I am prepared to roll with a few losses and a few weaknesses while these young guys build into experienced contributors. Not that it's fun like last week and the Essendon game, but if we can keep getting a few wins and get games into these young guys, it will be our time very soon.

[Adam The God 30,411]

10 minutes ago, DDEE said:

This is indeed an in-depth analysis Adam and has taken you some time to compile, thank you. The only thing I can add is to do with the ages of the players on our list. As I calculate it, right now we have 19 players who are 21 years or less. Of those 19, 11 have played less than 5 games. (5 of those 11 have played zero games). The other 7 of the 19 are getting regular games now and have 137 games between them, that's an average of less than 20 games each. They are Hoges, Salem, Gussie, Stretcher, JKH, Nibbler and Harmes (ok, not all getting regular games!). Also, Viney, Kent and Benny K are only a year ahead of those guys. So the way I see it, when all these players (most of them hopefully) get to 50 or 80 games over the next two or three years, many of the older or fringe players will have dropped off (Terlich, Matt Jones etc etc), new players will have been brought in, and new draft picks will make up the balance. I reckon this will be the real turning point for us. I am prepared to roll with a few losses and a few weaknesses while these young guys build into experienced contributors. Not that it's fun like last week and the Essendon game, but if we can keep getting a few wins and get games into these young guys, it will be our time very soon.

Completely agree. Good post, mate. 

Let's hope the younger guys avoid any poor habits from older players. It sounds like Viney is someone a lot of them look up to, so that can only be good for us in the long run.

[Moonshadow 17,677]

1 hour ago, rpfc said:

We need skill out of the backline.

We need skill on the outside of contests.

We need a decent second ruck who is predominantly our 2nd tall forward.

Good nutshell summation rpfc.

Salem, Milkshake and perhaps Vince will be the class coming out of the backline next year, perhaps Jetta as well because of his reliability. Hurley would be handy. TMac will never be 'class', as effective as his marking and spoiling can be. Definitely lack back 6 class.

We've focussed on getting tough mids that attack the contest inside (Viney, Vince, Jones, Bugg, Oliver, Brayshaw, Vanders, etc) and now lack class on the outside that can run and spread. This was exposed against both Essendon and St K. 

Will Stretch, Hunt, ANB, Melksham and MJones be those players we need for run and spread long term? Doubt it. I supect at season's end this will be a focus at trade/draft time. Are Prestia, Heppell and/or Cogniglio in our sights?

We also deperately need to re-sign Hogan in the next 18 mths. The Weid will get games next year.

Edited May 4, 2016 by Moonshadow

[dazzledavey36 55,347]

Speaking of ruckman depth Zac Clarke from Freo is a free agent this year and out of contract. Melbourne boy originally but id love to get him cheap as a back up to Gawn.

[btdemon 482]

I see Vandenberg's future as a forward who can go into the midfield. The guy is a great contested mark and a reasonably consistent kick who knows how to find the ball. His consistency has been down a bit this year but I think that is due o injury and not having enough game time. I think he is a much more valuable asset than some on here and don't understand why people have gone a little cold on him.

[DeeZee 7,445]

Our main deficiency and something I've suspected got a while, which was evident again in the St Kilda game is genuine leg speed and outside run.

Kent and Garlett are good but they play up forward .

It's  more needed in our midfield mix.

[Cheesy D. Pun 1,765]

10 hours ago, rpfc said:

We need skill out of the backline.

We need skill on the outside of contests.

We need a decent second ruck who is predominantly our 2nd tall forward.

I agree. I'd also add that we don't need to overdo the changes/additions. Our list is fairly well balanced, we just need to let the seed grow.

[Webber 10,538]

20 minutes ago, DeeZee said:

Our main deficiency and something I've suspected got a while, which was evident again in the St Kilda game is genuine leg speed and outside run.

Kent and Garlett are good but they play up forward .

It's  more needed in our midfield mix.

More games and experience into Stretch (a natural footballer who will be terrific once he matures), Hunt, and Petracca, and that's your speed across the centre-wings. Ben Ken, Garlett and Kent (still learning) provide the speed up forward.

[binman 43,762]

3 minutes ago, Webber said:

More games and experience into Stretch (a natural footballer who will be terrific once he matures), Hunt, and Petracca, and that's your speed across the centre-wings. Ben Ken, Garlett and Kent (still learning) provide the speed up forward.

Not sure how fast trac is over a distance. Poweful over 50 but 200?

[rpfc 28,779]

1 hour ago, btdemon said:

I see Vandenberg's future as a forward who can go into the midfield. The guy is a great contested mark and a reasonably consistent kick who knows how to find the ball. His consistency has been down a bit this year but I think that is due o injury and not having enough game time. I think he is a much more valuable asset than some on here and don't understand why people have gone a little cold on him.

He is a mid. And he is a point of difference in there with his height. I would get him fit, and put him in the middle, he can rest forward, but when you say he should be a forward first and mid second - you are setting him up to fail. He is a mid.

[Satyriconhome 10,879]

41 minutes ago, DeeZee said:

Our main deficiency and something I've suspected got a while, which was evident again in the St Kilda game is genuine leg speed and outside run.

Kent and Garlett are good but they play up forward .

It's  more needed in our midfield mix.

Our main deficiencies against St Kilda was we went away from 18 man defence and lost the appetite to get to as many contests as we could

Ruck division Gawn, Spencer, King x 2, backup Dawes, Pedersen, Frost

[drdrake 3,187]

I think we have filled a number of holes over the past three years.  As most have stated Forward/Second Ruck is a massive hole.  Good decision makers we have Salem, Watts and then a big gap

[nrc73 77]

Great assessment Adam. Very detailed, left almost nothing out.

[rjay 25,088]

1 hour ago, Satyriconhome said:

Our main deficiencies against St Kilda was we went away from 18 man defence and lost the appetite to get to as many contests as we could

Ruck division Gawn, Spencer, King x 2, backup Dawes, Pedersen, Frost

Ruck division: Gawn, Spencer (back from injury).

1 x King out of the year the other more forward than a ruckman struggling in the ruck at Casey.

Dawes, Pedersen: average forwards, stop gap ruck options but hardly inspiring.

Frost: poor forward, probably a defender, tried and failed in the ruck hence Pedersen taking the 2nd ruck duties...

We have 2 viable rucks, lets hope neither break down. Spencer will need to give Gawn a break at some time.

[old55 23,687]

Our biggest weakness by far is ruck-fwd.  If we had this covered with someone capable of providing a proper contest while Gawn rests then we could keep up 120 minutes of pressure around the ball,  In addition Gawn could rest more minutes and be deployed fwd where his marking and seeming reliable goal kicking could give us a real edge.  Finally we'd have another marking threat in the fwd 50 when Gawn is rucking - Frosty? please ....

IMO if we had Mitch Clark playing at his best we'd be top 4 next year.  I know that he's not an option but that's what we need.  Geelong has them out the ying-yang - particularly if Vardy and Clark can get fit.  Maybe Rhys Stanley is a trade option?

[Satyriconhome 10,879]

2 hours ago, Fifty-5 said:

Our biggest weakness by far is ruck-fwd.  If we had this covered with someone capable of providing a proper contest while Gawn rests then we could keep up 120 minutes of pressure around the ball,  In addition Gawn could rest more minutes and be deployed fwd where his marking and seeming reliable goal kicking could give us a real edge.  Finally we'd have another marking threat in the fwd 50 when Gawn is rucking - Frosty? please ....

IMO if we had Mitch Clark playing at his best we'd be top 4 next year.  I know that he's not an option but that's what we need.  Geelong has them out the ying-yang - particularly if Vardy and Clark can get fit.  Maybe Rhys Stanley is a trade option?

Like Goldstein you mean and Jacobs, you will find most top ruckmen want to ruck most of the game with a max of 5 or 10 minute breather in total

 

2 hours ago, rjay said:

Ruck division: Gawn, Spencer (back from injury).

1 x King out of the year the other more forward than a ruckman struggling in the ruck at Casey.

Dawes, Pedersen: average forwards, stop gap ruck options but hardly inspiring.

Frost: poor forward, probably a defender, tried and failed in the ruck hence Pedersen taking the 2nd ruck duties...

We have 2 viable rucks, lets hope neither break down. Spencer will need to give Gawn a break at some time.

All they have to do is compete, there are not many teams at the moment who have the luxury of two top ruckmen, and I mean top, most have one and a serviceable back up

King 1 is still developing, King 2 will be rebuilt, Spencer, if Gawn goes down, hopefully not, will at least compete, that is all you can ask